Talk:Sabino horse

OK, is this guy an overo or a sabino or some combination of both?

Here's the photo in wikipedia, following it is a poorer-quality photo that shows the roaning:

same horse

My opinion - I see four sabino traits - the lip/chin spot, belly spot, roaning, jagged leg markings. Of course the other photo shows the markings better, but there is only a requirement of one recognized marking to be registered as a sabino. Sabino is a recognized overo marking - see the Paint Horse page

This is a photo of my stallion (a moderate sabino overo)- he has a lip spot, chin spot, belly spot, roaning, lightning strikes (jagged leg markings), throat splash. It's hard to get some of those characteristics to show up in photos of the "whole horse" and still have a nice picture. Lmocr 04:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It's so weird that the overos and the sabinos are totally different genes, yet lumped together. I guess a horse, in theory, could have both genes, yes? Do you think it is OK to list this horse as a "Sabino Overo" then? This is not my horse, I just took the photo because I saw the horse and realized he was a pretty good example of a horse that at least is not a Tobiano. I figured that he was also a gelding, so no one is going to claim that I am using Wikipedia to promote my own stuff (after all, I don't have Paints...)

I am uploading some pictures of horses taken at shows, I think they will be useful to the article, because one shows true sabino roan phenomena, The other is a pinto pattern made by the sabino phenomena. See if helpful, or usable for the article. Arsdelicata (talk) 15:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

• 
• 

  Sabino Pinto Horse color coat pattern on a Puerto Rican Paso Fino Mare

• 

  Sabino Spanish Mustang

The roan looks like it has both natural roan coloring and sabino markings, that or rabicano and sabino markings. The Sabino sites suggest that true full-body roaning isn't a sabino trait, just the lacy roaning around the edge of white markings...but have your run genetic tests on the horse?? Both are lovely, by the way Montanabw^(talk) 06:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I own zero horses, these pictures are from shows I have been to over the years.Arsdelicata (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Sabino is common in Hackney Horses & Hackney Ponies

Filly at 1 month of age

Here is a Hackney Horse filly and her dam. The filly, has high white on all 4 legs, the full blaze, white lip, white between her jaw bones, small white markings on her belly and two white markings on her right hip. Both parents have a partially white lower lip and low stockings, but no other body markings, except for ermine marks on their coronet bands. Both parents have produced other get with sabino expression.--Panachehh 20:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is a photo of Panache Sorceress at 1 month of age:

Good contributions, but I removed some commercial comments on this page. Please be careful not to "advertise" on Wikipedia, but your images are nice. Don't use galleries, either, I fixed the wiki markup to a more standard form. Montanabw 21:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Gallery

• 

  Wrap-around, ragged-edged blaze.

• 

  Bold, irregular blaze that reaches the lower lip; pigmented spot on upper lip

• 

  Tapering white leg markings extending up the anterior of the hindleg

• 

  Irregular, sometimes tapering, white markings

Countercanter (talk) 14:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Definition of "sabino"

Let's revisit this. The term "sabino" can be defined as:

• Sabino-1
• Any number or combination of white spotting patterns in which white markings are distributed primarily on the extremities and the ventral aspect of the body.

• If falling under the second definition, sabino is distinguished from dominant white patterns in that sabino patterns are not supposed to be homozygous embryonic lethal.
• If falling under the second definition, sabino is distinguished from standard white markings by...?

We can all agree on this, right? I might like to explore the last point...at what point do we draw the line? I know where many registries draw theirs, but that doesn't keep horse owners from calling horses "sabino." Countercanter (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Kind of, sort of (grin). I think the safest bet is to SB-1 plus the organizational or registry definitions to show the other variations. Anything more isWP:NOR| "original research"]] and the wikigods will smite us! (LOL!) For example, we can do the "official" SB-1 definition from scientific sources, as it's been identified and such. But we can go on to show the range by using the variations used by the various breed registries and clubs that describe patterns whether they are or are not identifiable as SB-1. I think there are actually some links in the article to some of these places. For example, we can say the APHA definition of a sabino is abc (and they have a clear definition on their web site), the AHA doesn't officially recognize Sabino, but the Arabian Sabino Breeders Assn defines it as efg, the TWH people (whoever has a definition) define it as hijk, and the Clydesdale association defines it (if they do) as lmnop...

My thinking is to do a really good explanation of what SB-1 but also what it is NOT, then explain the other forms and the definitions used for non-SB-1 Sabinos. (particularly Arabians and Clydesdales, who do not appear to carry SB-1, but do have patterns that get called "Sabino.") You might want to see what I (and some others) did on the color section of Arabian horse as an example of an explanation of a non-SB-1 pattern.

For non-SB-1 sabinos, the usual definition is belly and flank spotting, high white, white past the nostril, eye or upper lip, body roaning or lacy markings in the same areas (which is sometimes confused with rabicano) etc. Clydesdales probably are the best example of a breed with a LOT of non-SB-1 sabinos. Some groups say if there is a chin spot, it's a sabino. To distinguish from standard white markings is basically the imaginary boundaries I just noted... genetically this may be inexplicable, but that doesn't keep people from trying. Montanabw^(talk) 05:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's try to use the best sources first. Samantha Brooks, whose dissertation was Sabino-1, actually gets a great big star for Gets Along Well with Public. In this [1] APHA journal publication, she says some things that are so very, very useful:

"You can't say 'the sabino gene,'" Brooks explained. "It doesn't work that way. There are many genes that cause patterns that are commonly described as sabino, at least five [patterns] that I have seen. All of these have fundamentally different genetic causes, potentially different genes, so you really have to specify. It's correct to say 'the Sabino 1 gene' (SB1) or 'the sabino genes.'"

“I’ve had many an owner tell me that their horse must be sabino because it has this one leg with a sock that is pointy at the top, and that this is a sabino characteristic. Well, yes and no. Many sabinos do have pointy socks, but there are many different biological explanations for pointy socks, only one of which is Sabino 1. The draft-type sabino, for example, is present in heavy horses, Shires, Clydesdales, etc. This population, until the recent popularity of draftcrosses and spotted drafts, was not intermingled much with the light horses. And, though it seems to be dominantly inherited, it does not produce a white phenotype.”

This is stuff that you, of course, know. The point that interests me is what she says about pointy socks and chin spots. Once one starts getting to high socks, they are almost invariably pointy. If they aren't pointy, they may indicate splash or tobiano. Incomplete thoughts, but I'll flesh it out eventually... Countercanter (talk) 13:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Go for the rewrite on SB-1. My axe to grind in this is just that Arabians don't come in frame, splash, tobiano or any other form of Pinto other than whatever version of "sabino" they actually have, which apparently isn't SB-1. Ditto Clydesdales.