Talk:Saccharin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Food and drink (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
 
WikiProject Chemicals (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chemicals, a daughter project of WikiProject Chemistry, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of chemicals. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Russia / Technology & engineering (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia.
To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the technology and engineering in Russia task force.
 

Question on its banning/ban withdrawal[edit]

"The FDA in the United States considered banning saccharin in 1977, but after a moratorium was placed on the ban to study the safety of saccharin, the ban was withdrawn in 1991. Likewise, in 2000, the United States repealed a law requiring saccharin products to carry health warning labels."

This makes no sense. Was there a ban between 1977-1991, or not. It says the United States CONSIDERED a ban.... and then it jumps to saying the ban was WITHDRAWN. If there was no ban, how could it be withdrawn?

1977-91 FDA recommends banning it, and Congress decided not to explicitly ban it but instead to make it something requiring a health safety warning. The FDA withdrew its proposal in 1991, and Congress withdrew (repealed) the labeling requirement in 2000. --Kaze0010 10:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Quantifying sweetness[edit]

how can one substance be "300 times sweeter" than another??? how can you objectively quantify sweetness?

bodnotbod provided this link in the Talk page for Aspartame: Basic_taste#Sweetness. The Wikipedia page on Sweetness may help, too. --Joe Sewell 30 June 2005 16:10 (UTC)

Well, double trouble, the article on Sweetness says Saccharin is 510 (and not 'about' 300) times sweeter than Sugar....

Molecular drawing[edit]

Could someone who is conversant in chemestry please check the molecular drawing for accuracy? It is based on the previous image of the molecule, but I'm a graphic artist who hasn't studied chem in years...

   Looks good to me.  It matchs what's on chemfinder, and the structure itself makes sense.

== Cyclamate was avThe article states that saccharin ban was protested because it was the only sweetener at the time but ... cyclamate is known from the 1930s, init? -- Ah yes. Cyclamate was banned too. ailable? ==

Cancer[edit]

In the 'Saccharin and Cancer' section, it says that

"The notorious and influential studies of the kind published in 1977 have been criticized for the ridiculously high dosages of saccharin that were given to the test subject rats; dosages were commonly hundreds of times higher than "normal" ingestion expectations would be for a consumer."

This is, I believe, typical of drug studies, where actually buying 1,000,000 of the animal would be ridiculous, and so, a smaller number (10,000 typically?) is used, with far higher dosages than normal, and real-life population numbers are extrapolated from that. Am I correct here? --Superiority 00:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Not quite, while animal studies typically use smaller sample sizes (10,000 is even large, more like 500-1000), they use of a high dosing regimen is purely up to the investigator. Sometimes, though not always, the high dose size is done due to budget constraints on long term studies (being more expensive). This can lead to claims that studies with dosages outside the range of recommended daily intake are flawed. However, just because the doses were high does not mean there is NO danger... Enviropearson (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The main reason they use high doses is to gain a greater confidence in the result. If giving 1000 times the recommended dosage produces no ill effects, then they can be more confident that the regular dose is also safe. At lower dosage levels, the reaction to an unhealthy chemical will vary more widely between individual animals. At higher dosages, the reaction is more consistent. The second reason is that a high dose can provide some approximation of the potential damage of a normal dose taken over a much longer time span. However the use of high doses can make the result less applicable to everyday situations. 194.126.102.98 (talk) 17:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This article ignores some important studies[edit]

See the paragraph "Smoldering Battle Over Saccharin Heats Up" in http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol278/issue5339/s-scope.dtl#top. There is also the webpage http://www.cspinet.org/reports/saccomnt.htm provided in the External Links section. These webpages mention studies that are not properly reported in the article. For example, consider the following paragraph in the article:

"Many studies have since been done on saccharin, with some showing a correlation between saccharin consumption and increased cancer (especially bladder cancer) and others showing no such correlation. The notorious and influential studies of the kind published in 1977 have been criticized for the ridiculously high dosages of saccharin that were given to the test subject rats; dosages were commonly hundreds of times higher than "normal" ingestion expectations would be for a consumer. No study has ever shown health risks in humans at normal doses. Furthermore, the biological mechanism believed to be responsible for the rat cancers has been shown to be inapplicable to humans because of differences in urine composition between rats and humans."

The second sentence suggests that the studies mentioned in the first sentence are ridiculous. The first two sentences are separately accurate, but the overall message is wrong. This is what is called insinuation, and it is against the Neutral Point Of View policy. Moreover, studies done after 1977 explain that the argument in the remainder of the paragraph is flawed (see the webpages that are cited just above). Moreover the sentence "No study has ever shown health risks in humans at normal doses." is not sourced, and should be removed in accordance with the WP:verifiability policy. In fact, the studies that are reported in the above webpages mention that some correlation has been shown between cancer and consumption of saccharin and other chemical sweeteners in the population. It is natural that many epidemiological studies do not consider saccharin alone because most commercial sweeteners mixe different chemicals (e.g. cyclamate and saccharin). Here is a quote:

"Numerous case-control studies have sought to evaluate the relationship between artificial-sweetener consumption (saccharin and cyclamate were generally used together) and the incidence of bladder cancer. Several studies, including some of the largest ones, found significant increases in rates of bladder cancer.
  • National Cancer Institute (3,010 total cases) found relative risks of between 1.6 and 3.0 in several subgroups of Americans, including low-risk white females and heavy-smoking males.
  • Morrison (555 British cases) found an increased risk (RR = 2.3) in British females (but not males or Japanese cases) who consumed more than 10 tablets of sugar substitutes (primarily saccharin) a day."

The study of the National Cancer Institute and the study of Morrision that are mentioned just above are two of many epidemiological studies on artificial sweeteners (see above webpages) --Lumière 03:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

While this is an old discussion, and though it appears that this user has long since packed his bags and left, I thought I'd comment here, since I've made changes relevant to this topic. The way the article was worded was a bit disingenuous, and I've clarified it so it says no study has found a causal relationship between saccharin consumption and health risks (and I doubt such a study would ever be done for ethical reasons ). However, to deemphasize the debate is also disingenuous, since there is still debate on this issue in the scientific community (see the IARC link in the text for some reaons why the human studies may not be of any value, or if you can, the article mentioned in the PubMed abstract, for arguements why the rat studes were flawed).Gershwinrb 07:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


Saccharin was de-listed from the National Toxicology Program's listing of carcinogenic substances in 2006, 11th Review. http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/index.cfm?objectid=72016262-BDB7-CEBA-FA60E922B18C2540

Etymology[edit]

Can someone check the etymological claim (from Greek X, from Sanskrit) in OED or something? This sounds unlikely : such claims are often made by Hindu nationalists who like to claim that PIE = Sanskrit. 80.168.29.18 08:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Who is Mamun "Mono" Shaikh?[edit]

On March 21st, someone introduced erroneous information into the Discovery and History section. For example, they changed 'Constantin Fahlberg' to 'Mamun "Mono" Shaikh'.12.64.128.22 15:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Pronounciation?[edit]

Since the name has very odd spelling, shouldn't there be pronounciation information on it? Undeaf 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Would add it myself but I have no idea of the corect pronunciation ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.177.30 (talk) 00:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The spelling is not at all odd. I can't do IPA symbols, but the photetic spelling is sac-ka-Rin or sack-a-Rin. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 08:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Quotes[edit]

In the same article there are two quoted statements from Teddy Roosevelt "Anybody who says saccharin is injurious is an idiot." and "Anyone who thinks saccharin is dangerous is an idiot"

Does anyone know exactly what he said else quote marks should be removed.

That was President Roosevelt, with the exact quote being: anyone who thinks saccharin is injurious to health is an idiot" Enviropearson (talk) 03:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the paragraph which included the uncited version of the quote; it did not mention anything about cancer and just restated the previous section "Saccharin and government regulation". 159.124.170.11 (talk) 17:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed text[edit]

I removed this text:

The notorious and influential studies published in 1977 have been criticized for the very high dosages of saccharin that were given to test subject rats; dosages were commonly hundreds of times higher than "normal" ingestion expectations would be for a consumer.

because of the objections raised here. As said, this is typical in trials. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Superiority (talkcontribs) 21:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Saccharine redirect[edit]

As of right now, Saccharine redirects to this page, but a footnote on the very first word of the summary indicates that they refer to entirely different things. Should these two words really have the same article? 209.204.189.199 (talk) 20:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Government Regulation Section[edit]

I added more detail to the history of saccharin regarding Roosevelt and Wiley, with a quote from Wiley and a correction to the quote from Roosevelt. My reference may be off though, I direct to the online article that has the exchange within it (see [[1]]), but it is actually attributed in that article to a book by Wiley and sourced there... what would be the proper source? I think the FDA article is a worthy place to send people, but not sure if it is the proper one, any thoughts?Enviropearson (talk) 03:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging[edit]

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and carefull attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Oldest Artificial Sweetner?[edit]

I'm a bit confused by the assertion that Saccharin is the oldest artificial sweetner -- the ancient Romans were believed to produce lead acetate by boiling grape must in lead vessels thousands of years before saccharin was discovered. Perhaps this statement needs to be qualified in some way? Otherwise, it appears factually incorrect, and in need of removal. --AdamRoach (talk) 20:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"Artificial" Sweetener.[edit]

Johnwrd (talk) 22:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)What is "Artificial" about saccharin? It is made from a (former) vegetable product. The Tests carried out on saccharin were using doses the equivalent of 1000 cans of Soda a day. A very simple fact is also ignored by the Anti-Saccharin Lobby; Diabetics have no higher rate of Bladder Cancer than anyone else, and those statistics were collected when Diabetics were the primary users of saccharin. Some experts on the subject recommend 'mixing' sweeteners and sugar, so you only intake a small amount of each. The health risks (if there are any) would then be minimal.Johnwrd (talk) 22:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I concur. Saccharin is simply something adding sweetness to the taste. Sometimes, if not often, natural. --96.54.235.1 (talk) 04:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see the problem. Saccharin and saccharine are too different things, but they both are redirected to the article "Saccharin"... I created a stub for it. --Enigma55 (talk) 05:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The redirect was restored due to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Saccharine. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Discovery[edit]

I notice that the story of saccharin's discovery in this article contradicts the one in Ira Remsen, where this article says the sweet taste was noticed by Fahlberg, and the other that it was noticed by Remsen. I'm not sure which is correct... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.48.82.100 (talk) 12:59, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

It is well known to historians that Remsen and Fahlberg later contested their relative contributions to the discovery of saccharin. The current wording of this article (on 10 June 2013) takes a pronounced POV, explicitly accusing Fahlberg of "academic theft", when the situation is not -- and never has been -- completely clear. Their first publication in 1878, listed in the sources at the end of this article, is joint-authored, with Fahlberg's name first and Remsen's second. This ordering of the names was presumably on Remsen's authority, since he was the director of the laboratory. The first sentence of this German paper does not help to resolve the question of relative contributions to the discovery. The current wording of the current Wikipedia article ("a mere glance at the first sentence [of the 1878 paper] ... is enough ..." [to incriminate Fahlberg]) is false. That first sentence simply states that a few years previously, Remsen began a series of investigations that continues with the present co-authored paper. We can infer that the sweet taste of the new substance was noted by both Remsen and Fahlberg, since it is described in the co-authored 1878 paper (on p. 470) as "pleasantly sweet, even sweeter than cane sugar." There is no indication, and no way to know for certain, which of them tasted it first. I will now edit the relevant sentences to remove the POV character.Ajrocke (talk) 17:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Synthesis Corrections[edit]

The section under "Chemistry" discussing the Remsen & Fahlberg synthesis contains some minor errors. The intermediate o- and p-chlorosulfones (not chlorosulfonic acids as stated in the text) and the o-sulfonamide include too many oxygens on the sulfur atom. Those substituents should read "SO2Cl" and "SO2NH2" respectively. The original creator of the image would be able to make this correction more quickly than I would, but if there's no response in a couple of days, I'll make a new figure. Nllewellyn (talk) 02:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Section "Warning label ... removal"; "SWEETEST", not "Sweetness"[edit]

The following may be gleaned from merely reading the public record available on the internet. Does this amount to "original research"?

The third paragraph of the section currently begins,

"The delisting of saccharin led to legislation, known as the Sweetness Act; which was signed into law on December 21, 2000, repealing the warning label requirement for products containing saccharin.[citation needed]"

"Citation needed"? I'll say. Though this "Sweetness Act" sentence has been copied many places on the internet, it's pretty inaccurate, I think. Looking at the Library of Congress' "Thomas" website I found that:

On December 14, 2000, during the 106th Congress, U.S. Rep. John Edward Porter (R-IL) introduced House Resolution 5656, the “Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2001”. Title V (“General Provisions”), Section 517 of H.R. 5656 reads

“SEC. 517. Section 403 [misbranded food] (o) of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act ([Title] 21 U.S.C. 343(o)) is repealed. Subsections (c) and (d) of section 4 of the Saccharin Study and Labeling Act are repealed.”

On the day of its introduction, H.R. 5656 was “Referred to the House Committee on Appropriations”.

On December 15, 2000, H.R. 5656 was inserted into Rep. Porter’s H.R. 4577, “Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2001” (introduced June 1, 2000) which included

SECTION 1.

(a) The provisions of the following bills of the 106th Congress are hereby enacted into law.

(1) H.R. 5656, as introduced on December 14, 2000

President Bill Clinton signed H.R. 4577 into law December 21, 2000 as Public Law No: 106-554.

Also on December 15, 2000, U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg (R-MI) introduced H.R. 5668, the “Saccharin Warning Elimination via Environmental Testing Employing Science and Technology Act”, nicknamed the “SWEETEST act”. It was “Referred to the House Committee on Commerce” the same day. H.R. 5668 subsequently died in committee.

So the thing was actually nicknamed the "SWEETEST act", not the "Sweetness act", and it died anyway. The texts of H.R. 5656 and H.R. 5668 have the same effect but are not identical. If one searches for "sweetness act", only this article and plagiarism of it appear, along with non sequiturs. Searching for "sweetest act" in the public record, one finds it died in committee. H.R. 5656 did the work, by way of H.R. 4577. Rt3368 (talk) 07:49, 19 August 2014 (UTC)