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orign of the Shakh İsmail
Its explains enough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8usSxFs8Eo&feature=relmfu--126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
My Grand Proposal!
Hello everyone! I have been reading the Safavid and Afsharid Empire articles for while and have read so many books on both. I am proposing to merge the Safavid and Afsharid Empire articles into one article, given that both empires were virtually the same empire with a different dynasty. Much like how the Roman and Byzantine Empires went through different Dynasties, Nadir Shah took over the Safavid Empire and declared himself Shah of Iran, thus a new dynasty was put on the throne of the Safavid Empire and was renamed the Afsharid Empire. What do you all think of my proposal? Keeby101 (talk) 04:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
- Obvious oppose Um, the Safavid dynasty and the Afsharid dynasty were two different dynasties, that's why they have separate pages. The state they both ruled was called Iran (or Persia). We have an article on that too. Plus an article on its history. Are you also going to propose we merge the Ming and Qing dynasty articles because they both ruled China? --Folantin (talk) 08:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Again, You didn't fully hear me out! I was going to have the new page named "Third Persian Empire" and rename the Safavid Dynasty and Afsharid Dynasty Articles as "Third Persian Empire under the Safavid Dynasty" and "Third Persian Empire under the Afsharid Dynasty. For example, the Byzantine Empire has an article of it's own: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire, but it also has it's own sub-articles such as these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Palaiologos_dynasty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty
So with that being said, I was proposing to have an entirely new article created called "Third Persian Empire" or "Early Modern Persian Empire" that would be specifically about the Safavid and Afsharid Empires. Sound good? Keeby101 (talk) 06:31, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Also, NO I am not going to propose we merge the Mingd and Qing Dynasties into one article. But I will propose to merge the Tsardom of Russia and the Russian Empire articles into one article, the Romanov's ruled the Tsardom after all. Keeby101 (talk) 06:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Just "NO" on what?? The Russia topic or this proposal on Iran? If you mean this, then take a look at what I posted on the Afsharid Empire talk page. I rephrased my proposal. Then go to my sandbox and see what the article would look like. It will be great. Again. Cheers! :) Keeby101 (talk) 09:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- It will violate a number of Wikipedia policies and be deleted. --Folantin (talk) 09:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Did I seriously just read that from you correctly? How would it violate Wikipedia Policies. I was going to ask permission from the administrators to do this as well or ask permission from whoever is in charge of this stuff to create this article. I simply came on to these 2 talk pages to announce the proposal. The people who would have the big say so would be the Wikipedia administrators. Hopefully it will not get denied. Peace ☮ Keeby101 (talk) 09:42, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Summary and Genalogy
- The summary is too long and has an overload of information. See also: WP:SUMMARY.
- The genealogy section is cunfusing and needs a clean up. For exaple, Frye and Minorsky are quoted as if they contradict themselves what is most certainly not true. Both Frey and Minorsky/Savory agree that the Safavid dynasty was - for all practical purposes - Turkic-speaking, but not Turkic in origin or identity. That's why Frye in the very first sentence says that the Turkish-speakers of Azernaijan are descendants of Irannian-speakers who were linguistically Turkified. That's also exactly what Minosrky says.
However, apart from the sources already there I can't find any evidence that the Safavids divided their provinces using a turkic name. It is possible, given the Azeri Turkic heritage of the Safavids and the Turko-Persian tradition of the region, but would be grateful for help from anyone here with more knowledge of the region.
Once resolved we can describe the same in this article.
My guess, for what its worth, is that the Beylerbeylik name was used in the early Safavid Empire, but then phased out over time as the Persian language became more influential among the ruling elite.
Intermarriages with Circassians
Quite a few Safavid Shah's and princes had Circassian dignitaries or wifes, so I'm adding them as well to the list with the proper references.
Shah Ṭahmāsb had several wives from the Caucasus, and, of his nine sons who reached adolescence, at least five were of Caucasian mothers, four Georgians (Eskandar Beg, I, pp. 133-34, tr. Savory, I, pp. 215-17) and one Čarkas (Eskandar Beg, I, p. 133, tr. Savory, I, p. 215)
A very influential figure in the middle of the 10th/16th century, from the latter half of the reign of Ṭahmāsb to the beginning of the reign of Solṭān-Moḥammad Ḵodābanda, was Parī-ḵān Khanom, daughter of the Čarkas woman, Solṭān-Āḡā Khanom (Qomī, p. 671 (Qāżī Aḥmad Qomī, Ḵolāṣat al-tawārīḵ, ed. E. Ešrāqī, 1359 Š./1970, Tehran.) ), a wife of Ṭahmāsb
During the reign of ʿAbbās I, Farhād Beg, a Čarkas favorite (moqarrab) of the shah who had begun his career as a falconer (gūščī) and had been promoted to the office of “chief of the hunt” (amīr-e šekār) was suspected of forming a seditious relationship with the shah’s eldest son, Moḥammad-Bāqer Ṣafī Mīrzā, whose mother was a Čarkas.
Shah Abbas II (Persian: شاه عباس دوم) (born 31 December 1632; died 25/26 October 1666) was Shah of Iran from 1642 to 1666. He was the seventh Shah of the Safavid Dynasty. He was the son of Shah Safi I and a Circassian, Anna Khanum, -> (^ Andrew J. Newman Safavid Iran (I.B.Tauris) p.81)
Suleiman I (Persian: شاه سلیمان) was a Safavid shah of Persia who reigned between 1666 and 1694. He was the elder son of the previous shah Abbas II and a Circassian slave, Nakihat Khanum. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_I_of_Persia)
It seems that a few posters of Georgian origin(?) as of recently have been vandalizing articles about the Safavids and Ottomans.
Kartli and Kakheti were under long intermittent Iranian suzerainity, starting from the time of Ismail I of the Safavids. During the same Safavid era, Imereti was also included shortly during their peak under Abbas I. The same goes for Kabardino-Balkaria.
All sources agree on this, however, it seems that wishful thoughts might hold stronger arguments than those conducted by actualy scholars and academics.
If more reversion will be going on, people will have to be reported for vandalism.
Also, arguments about ‘’inconsistent w being vassal states‘’ by some of these users can in my opinion better be thrown into the Wikipedia garbage bin, as according to that logic we might as well remove all maps from former empires.