|↓||Skip to table of contents||↓|
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Safavid dynasty article.|
|Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13|
|Safavid dynasty has been listed as a level-4 vital article in History. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as B-Class.|
|Please be calm and civil when you make comments or when you present evidence, and avoid personal attacks. Please be patient as we work toward resolution of the issues in a peaceful, respectful manner.|
|This is not a forum for general discussion about Safavid dynasty. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Safavid dynasty at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|Threads older than 3 months may be archived by.|
Summary and Genalogy
- The summary is too long and has an overload of information. See also: WP:SUMMARY.
- The genealogy section is cunfusing and needs a clean up. For exaple, Frye and Minorsky are quoted as if they contradict themselves what is most certainly not true. Both Frey and Minorsky/Savory agree that the Safavid dynasty was - for all practical purposes - Turkic-speaking, but not Turkic in origin or identity. That's why Frye in the very first sentence says that the Turkish-speakers of Azernaijan are descendants of Irannian-speakers who were linguistically Turkified. That's also exactly what Minosrky says.
However, apart from the sources already there I can't find any evidence that the Safavids divided their provinces using a turkic name. It is possible, given the Azeri Turkic heritage of the Safavids and the Turko-Persian tradition of the region, but would be grateful for help from anyone here with more knowledge of the region.
Once resolved we can describe the same in this article.
My guess, for what its worth, is that the Beylerbeylik name was used in the early Safavid Empire, but then phased out over time as the Persian language became more influential among the ruling elite.
Intermarriages with Circassians
Quite a few Safavid Shah's and princes had Circassian dignitaries or wifes, so I'm adding them as well to the list with the proper references.
Shah Ṭahmāsb had several wives from the Caucasus, and, of his nine sons who reached adolescence, at least five were of Caucasian mothers, four Georgians (Eskandar Beg, I, pp. 133-34, tr. Savory, I, pp. 215-17) and one Čarkas (Eskandar Beg, I, p. 133, tr. Savory, I, p. 215)
A very influential figure in the middle of the 10th/16th century, from the latter half of the reign of Ṭahmāsb to the beginning of the reign of Solṭān-Moḥammad Ḵodābanda, was Parī-ḵān Khanom, daughter of the Čarkas woman, Solṭān-Āḡā Khanom (Qomī, p. 671 (Qāżī Aḥmad Qomī, Ḵolāṣat al-tawārīḵ, ed. E. Ešrāqī, 1359 Š./1970, Tehran.) ), a wife of Ṭahmāsb
During the reign of ʿAbbās I, Farhād Beg, a Čarkas favorite (moqarrab) of the shah who had begun his career as a falconer (gūščī) and had been promoted to the office of “chief of the hunt” (amīr-e šekār) was suspected of forming a seditious relationship with the shah’s eldest son, Moḥammad-Bāqer Ṣafī Mīrzā, whose mother was a Čarkas.
Shah Abbas II (Persian: شاه عباس دوم) (born 31 December 1632; died 25/26 October 1666) was Shah of Iran from 1642 to 1666. He was the seventh Shah of the Safavid Dynasty. He was the son of Shah Safi I and a Circassian, Anna Khanum, -> (^ Andrew J. Newman Safavid Iran (I.B.Tauris) p.81)
Suleiman I (Persian: شاه سلیمان) was a Safavid shah of Persia who reigned between 1666 and 1694. He was the elder son of the previous shah Abbas II and a Circassian slave, Nakihat Khanum. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_I_of_Persia)
It seems that a few posters of Georgian origin(?) as of recently have been vandalizing articles about the Safavids and Ottomans.
Kartli and Kakheti were under long intermittent Iranian suzerainity, starting from the time of Ismail I of the Safavids. During the same Safavid era, Imereti was also included shortly during their peak under Abbas I. The same goes for Kabardino-Balkaria.
All sources agree on this, however, it seems that wishful thoughts might hold stronger arguments than those conducted by actualy scholars and academics.
If more reversion will be going on, people will have to be reported for vandalism.
Also, arguments about ‘’inconsistent w being vassal states‘’ by some of these users can in my opinion better be thrown into the Wikipedia garbage bin, as according to that logic we might as well remove all maps from former empires.
"Isfahan is Half the World"
I have reverted revision 411762286 which renamed the "Architecture" section to "Isfahan is Half the World". Such a heading by itself would only be appropriate if it was in quotation marks and the section was about the phrase, or it was the title of something (and appropriately formatted to indicate that); to simply use it implies that it reflects Wikipedia's opinion, and Wikipedia should not be asserting such subjective opinions, even implicitly. It could include this phrase with something more descriptive as a subtitle (e.g. "Isfahan is half the world": The architectural legacy of the Safavids), but only if this usage was explained in the section and actually related to the subject specifically. As it is, the only mention of "Isfahan is half the world" in the entire article is under "Culture", and I gather the phrase doesn't refer exclusively to architecture, so I believe its use here is inappropriate. Hairy Dude (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Notes and References
There being a number of footnotes with extensive explanatory text, I propose separating the "substantive" notes from the pure references (in order to direct a reader's attention to ones with additional information). I don't think this should be controversial, but I will not attempt to do so for a week or so to see if there is any objection. If not, I will do the separation and in the process try to make the reference notes more consistent (e.g., using the same abbreviation for previously cited works, using the same types of bibliographic information for each published work, etc.). AnthroMimus (talk) 12:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)