Talk:Safety (American and Canadian football position)
|WikiProject Canadian football||(Rated Start-class)|
- 1 A term that definitely needs to redirect to this article
- 2 "...safeties have become more involved in covering receivers."
- 3 Requested move
- 4 Move request 2
- 5 Article Name
- 6 RfC: "Safety" article titles
- 7 Effected article renaming
A term that definitely needs to redirect to this article
What you are all missing is that "Safety" is merely a short form for the real (the genuine original) name of safetyman for this position. "Safetyman" should probably be the actual title for this article. There are safety men in American and Canadian football, and probably in rugby, and in soccer football, the safetyman is called the "goalkeeper" or "goalie".
For those of you who think that this is just a step backwards to the era of "stone knives and bearskins" (Mr. Spock of Star Trek said this in about 1968), I can just state that you are painfully lacking in historical perspective. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
"...safeties have become more involved in covering receivers."
- Sean Taylor (musician)
- Sean Taylor (American football)
- safety (football score)
Regarding any subject that a person is not trained in, even with such a definition, much can seem mysterious, or silly, or humorous.
In all such definitions, clarifying edits might need continual updates.
- I agree completely with the above, except that a very important point has been omitted. Regarding a telephone, a covered receiver would refer to a telephone handset that has been covered up, e.g. with a pillow or a hand, to silence it from picking up on a sentence or more that one does not want to be heard on the other end of the phone line (such as when asking for confidential advice on what to say next).220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Move request 2
I did not see some of the later comments to the above move request and I'd like to respond. There is a misconception somewhere that there is a convention to disambiguate dabs; this is not so. In fact, the rule is to use the most general descriptive dab that does not conflict with another title and one of the reasons is for cases such as this. DoubleBlue (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Looking above at the archived move requests, it appears that there is (or was) consensus that the name of this article should be changed to "Safety (XXX football position)"; the debate was whether the title should be Safety (football position), Safety (American football position), or Safety (Gridiron football position). Am I understanding this correctly?
I'm neutral on whether the title should contain "American", "Gridiron", or (blank), but I do think that the current title is confusing. I'd suggest also moving Safety (football score) in accordance with what is decided here, and setting up a new Safety (American football) that's a WP:DAB page between the position and the score. Thoughts? –Grondemar 06:10, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Since I've received no replies, and yet there's evidence of disagreement in the article revision history as recently as six months ago, I'm going to open an RfC to get more input. –Grondemar 03:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
RfC: "Safety" article titles
The article Safety (American football) currently describes the position in American football called "Safety". However, there is another element of American football referred to as "Safety", a scoring play, currently located at Safety (football score). The current name of this article is ambiguous. However, since both the position and scoring play are common between American and Canadian football, and nonexistent in association football and rugby, there has been controversy whether the article names should be modified by:
- (American football),
- (Canadian football), or
- (gridiron football), which is an Australian term for American football not commonly used in North America.
I would like to reach consensus on the following issues:
- What title should the article about the position have?
- What title should the article about the scoring play have?
- What content should be located at the Safety (American football) page?
- I like your suggestion above of making Safety (American football) a disambiguation page. I'd move the position to Safety (American football position) and the score to Safety (American football score). Tada! --Geologik (talk) 21:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
My understanding of the standard is to use a disambiguation page only if there are more than two articles to link to, or if there are two articles, but neither term is more common than the other. Considering that the scoring of a safety is relatively infrequent, whereas every team has numerous safeties on their roster, I think the position is the more common usage. So I think best practice is already in place, with a hatnote used at the position article to disambiguate the term. I have no opinion on renaming the position article to reflect its use in that sense in both American and Canadian codes however. Strikehold (talk) 21:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't dispute that both terms are of importance to the game, but the naming convention is an effort to direct users to the article they are most likely to be searching for. I don't see a basis to support the assertion that people search for the type of score more often, and at least by one metric, it seems to be untrue: Safety (American football) registered 13,454 hits in April 2010, while safety (football score) registered only 4,467. Even if every user that hit upon the type of score did so by following the hatnote from the position article, that would mean that more than twice as many (8,987 hits) went to the position without continuing onto the type of score. It seems clear that the position article is the more commonly searched term. Strikehold (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's only looking at one month. I looked back farther, and what I found, looking back about a year, was that during football season the articles had about the same number of views, and out of football season the position ("Safety (American football)") had about twice the amount of views than the score ("Safety (football score)"). So, assuming most of the people who viewed the score page used the hatnote, the articles are probably searched for about the same amount. Signed, Dffgd (talk) 12:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
From the discussion above, it appears that a consensus has formed to move the article about the position to Safety (American football position) and the article about the scoring play to Safety (American football score), while having Safety (American football) as a disambiguation page. In order to resolve the concerns about American vs Canadian football, I propose having the titles Safety (Canadian football position), Safety (Canadian football score), and Safety (Canadian football) redirect to the American football articles, with all of the main articles clearly indicating "In American and Canadian football..." in their leads. If there is no objection to this plan I'll start making the moves tomorrow. –Grondemar 00:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- So Safety (Canadian football position) would redirect to Safety (American football position) and Safety (Canadian football score) would redirect to Safety (American football score). That's fine in my opinion, but what about Safety (Canadian football)? Would it redirect to Safety (American football)? Signed, Dffgd (talk) 22:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Since no one else has commented, I'm going to begin making the moves now. –Grondemar 03:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Effected article renaming
The title was clearly inaccurate at reflecting the dual American and Canadian nature of the player position. "and Canadian" was added as per WP:AND, since the article is describing both positions simultaneously, yet the material is not similar enough to necessitate separate pages for the content. Unless a reason can be produced why the title should be reverted to only "American football position", I propose it be left as it is now, including its description of being a Canadian position.
The title was left as Safety since it is the common name used by people across both nations (WP:COMMONNAME). However, the genuine name "safetyman" can be used in reference to other sports, as pointed out previously:
What you are all missing is that "Safety" is merely a short form for the real (the genuine original) name of safetyman for this position....There are safety men in American and Canadian football, and probably in rugby, and in soccer football, the safetyman is called the "goalkeeper" or "goalie".
- 18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
The word "position" was also left in the title to differentiate between the player position of the game and the American football scoring method.
The descriptor was also not replaced with "Defensive back" since that term is of a categorical nature. "American" and "Canadian" are explicit adjectives, they are more suited to add necessary detail to the title, and they also describe the origins of the article's subject.
- We need article titles to agree with each other. Right now we have Safety (gridiron football score) and Safety (American and Canadian football position). Both of these articles should use the same disambiguation, whatever that may be. I realize that Gridiron football is not the most common term, but that is the name of the parent article for American football and Canadian football, therefore, I suggest that we use "(gridiron football)" as the disambiguation and move this article to Safety (gridiron football position). Rreagan007 (talk) 20:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)