Talk:Saint Patrick's Day/Archive 3

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Edit request on 20 March 2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick's_Day This page has an error which reads:

  • Project, internationally, an accurate image of Ireland as a creative, professional and sophisticated country with wide appeal, as we approach the new millennium.|[1]

"as we approach the new millennium" should be changed to "in the new millennium" since we are not "approaching" but are "in" the new millennium.

Thank you for your attention.

74.14.197.148 (talk) 18:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done I removed reference to the millennium and updated the ref's link, which was broken. It's now in line with what is said on the source. Thanks for pointing it out. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Patty's (Sic) and sick

Patty's day is wrong, and as Ierland shouldn't be put on the Ireland page, it has no place here.86.45.12.27 (talk) 01:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep, the term is completely undue. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
For those who are unaware there is a relevant discussion above. Murry1975 (talk) 09:56, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Reliable sources override personal opinions, hence it stays. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Taking an uncommon name that a particular source uses does not mean it has WP:DUE weight for the article (and the source used is pretty dire). Also, we shouldn't be including WP:SLANG terms as alternative names. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
It's in wide usage, hence it's not "undue weight". I don't think it's "right" either, but it has become common usage. If you want to talk about "slang", "Paddy" also qualifies. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Yep, neither should be used mentioned as alternative names because they are slang terms per WP:SLANG. Also I guarantee serious academic sources about St. Patrick's day that use the term are few and far between so it is undue. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:59, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Both are in wide use. Whether a source is "serious" or not doesn't necessarily figure into it. This is an encyclopedia for the masses. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
No this is completely and absolutely not the case. Try and claim that at WP:RSN and see how much traction you get. Wikipedia strives to use serious sources per WP:RS and WP:SOURCES as they are the most reliable etc. If serious sources don't use the term, neither should we. Wikipedia isn't just an encyclopedia for the masses, it strives to be a high quality encyclopedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Reliable sources use Paddy and Patty. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
What Baseball Bugs said. Reliable sources use it, so your complaint is unfounded. You also need to look at the Infobox Holiday template this article uses. It specifically has a "nicknames" field, so there is nothing unusual or undue about nicknames appearing in holiday articles. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
It's hardly a serious source, editors commonly use slang terms in titles and slang terms are present in many informal articles in newspapers. I doubt you will find a serious source that calls it St Patty's day. 18:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Wolfie has raised the issue at another board:[1]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
For those interested: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Slang_terms, those on the board agree that slang is inappropriate in wikipedia tone as per guidelines. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
For those interested, Wolfie is mis-characterizing the discussion, which largely refutes his complaints. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:56, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
I abhor the name St Pattys, but it's obvious from several good sources that a lot of those strange Americans use that name, so that fact needs to be recorded in this article. HiLo48 (talk) 23:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
St Patty's is clearly wrong (my opinion). But Wikipedia isn't here only to tell people what's right; it's here to tell people what is. Unfortunately (my opinion again), many people in the US use the term St Patty's - it is a name that ill-informed (my opinion again) people use, but they do use it, so Wikipedia needs to report it as a name that's used.Ytic nam (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
I have no issue with including it in the article itself noting it, but I don't think it is appropriate in the "Also called" box. It is like having "Crimbo" in the other name box of Christmas. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

infobox

Before the brief interlude to the discussions above, we were discussing the best way to handle the various names, but "St. Patty's" in particular. One of my concerns is the lack of good solid references for "St. Patty's Day". Let's try to see what the consensus is on this (in the calm after the storm) before the issue arises again (inevitably). I believe the main points were:

  • "St. Patty's Day" is a recognized name for "Saint Patrick's Day"
    • but little or no refs (anecdotal, no "academic", none by subject matter experts)
    • is objected to by some
    • anecdotally seems to be a US or US-influenced name
  • "St. Paddy's Day" is a recognized name for "Saint Patrick's Day"
    • refs exist, including "academic" and from subject matter experts

One proposal I'd favour is to create a new section on these alternative names (etymology-ish). Thoughts? Another is to remove "St. Patty's" and "St. Paddy's" from the infobox. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 09:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

So, are you suggesting a solution where we take all non-official names out of the infobox and have a new section in the article on non-official/also-known-as/nicknames etc? If that's what you're suggesting then I'd agree completely.Ytic nam (talk) 09:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I do not believe there is any such thing as an "official" or "non-official" names for international cultural holidays. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I disagree. For example, many people in the US (some might say most)refer to the third Monday in February as President's Day. Wikipedia does not; not even in the info box. I know, that's a US holiday not an international one, but the principle is the same. Let's imagine a situation where every editor goes around putting all the "non-official" names for everything in the info box.Ytic nam (talk) 18:13, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Info boxes work, as with everything else in Wikipedia, to what is notable and verfiable. If editors add names to the info box that are not both they are removed. Whatever their perceived "official" status. I'm not familiar with President's Day, but clearly the fact it is defined in US law gives it an official name. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I think you're missing the point on President's day. It is not defined in US law and not an official name, but many people use it. The first paragraph of the Washington's Birthday article states " It is commonly but erroneously known as Presidents Day" and President's day is not mentioned in the info box. I am arguing that we should treat "Saint Patrick's Day or the Feast of Saint Patrick" (1st line of Saint Patrick's Day article) exactly the same. I can find notable and verifiable sources for President's Day - but the point is they're wrong.Ytic nam (talk) 15:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't think these names need expert or academic recognition in order to be verifiable, so I don't think there need be any significance difference between how Paddy & Patty are treated within the article. I see no credible argument for removing either from the infobox. The purpose of the info box is to summarise key facts in a condensed form, and there are fields in the box specifically for nicknames. Its purpose is not to sanction what some perceive to be official/proper/approved information at the expense of other controversial/non-academic/"I just don't like it" information. Removing both may be a compromise, but it's a poor one that panders to censorship and where everyone loses.
Beyond that, the section you propose is a good idea, although etymology is the very thing that we've always found difficult to source. Attempts to do this so far have been original research with a fair amount of speculation. But I am always happy for anyone to have a go at adding a new section, particularly if it puts the controversy to rest once and for all. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

In 2008, was an optional memorial on March **14**

Please investigate the following, which I found after trying to look up 2008 observance of St. Patrick's in the Catholic diocese of Norwich, Connecticut, U.S.A.; notice the reference to a different diocese (Providence, Rhode Island, which may border the Norwich diocese):

http://www.dioceseofprovidence.org/?id=14&uudis=47

As was already mentioned in the Ireland observance of St. Patrick's in 2008, there were a couple of things considered in placing this optional memorial (in the U.S.) of St. Patrick's on March 14 that year:

  • Holy Week is restricted to the seasonal liturgy of that week.
  • Could not use March 15 because that was being used that year for St. Joseph (normally March 19). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 16:41, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Lead is for facts not uncertain opinions

I removed a statement in the lead; "Today, St. Patrick's Day is probably the most widely celebrated saint's day in the world.", sourced from here. HighKing reinstated it on the grounds that it was referenced.

There a multiple problems with this;

  • The cite does not say this. No "probably" about it. It says Patrick is "the world’s most celebrated and beloved Patron Saint".
  • The cite offers zero facts to back this statement up, it is presented simply as an opinion.
  • Leads should stick to facts or clearly attributed opinions from notable authorities. This is none of these.
  • The opinion is sourced to the "Saint Patrick Foundation", an unofficial body that is unlikely to be neutral, especially in its own publicity blurb.

Bottom line is that if the lead is to mention this it should be;

  • a fact
  • backed by hard verifiable figures, or a very good unbiased authority
  • not using an unconvincing "probably" that casts doubt even on its own cite.

--Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Since no-one has any comment to make on the above I am going ahead with removing this unconvincing fact from the lead. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

what? references please..??

"jolly-jumpers and Seltic music."  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.197.76 (talk) 03:41, 10 March 2013 (UTC) 

Germany

German wikipedia claims that St. Patrick's day parade in Munich is 'the biggest in continental Europe' and yet it isn't even mentioned here (although Switzerland is mentioned)... Can anyone verify this? 82.135.67.177 (talk) 23:45, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request? Ireland, when March 17 is Sunday other than Palm Sunday

Is this the right place to point out what I believe to be a mistake in the Irish? Surely it's "La Feile Phadraig. ie. The festival day of Patrick. Regards, 92.51.225.210 (talk) 10:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Ronan

OK, the article does have transfer (for Ireland) of feast of St. Patrick in the rare case where March 17 is in Holy Week. Not as rare is the case of March 17 on Sunday (other than Palm Sunday). I'd like at least a confirmation (that's why I hesitate to edit this myself for now): When that happens, does the feast move to next day (March 18)? Next year (2014) this occurs (i.e., March 17 on Sunday other than Palm Sunday).

Holiday technically in Boston

While St Patrick's Day is not technically a holiday in Boston, MA (Suffolk County), Evacuation Day falls on the same day, a convenient way to help celebrate St Patrick's Day as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_Day_(Massachusetts) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.70.13 (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, I was just going to note the same thing. The <<on dit>> is that because the dates were the same, the Irish in the late 19th c. got the proposal through for a city-wide celebration as a kind of surreptitious way to get the day off for their celebration as well. Evacuation Day being the day the cannon that Knox brought from Ticonderoga were set up on Mission Hill and led the occupying British to decide to leave Boston i.e., evacuate. Since this theme--outsmarting the British and getting them to leave town--has been a resonant one for the Irish from times long past, it was more than simply coincidental that the day might deserve a bit more celebrating.

Of course, if one discusses St. P's day in Boston, one also has to bring up the issue of the Southie Parades, and the evolution of gay rights' issues along with it. That might need an article of its own if it doesn't already have one....96.233.98.79 (talk) 14:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Why post that in Canada it sometimes turns violent?

If you included every piece of news where an incident occurred on St. Patrick's Day this article would be huge, it felt out of place considering it was the only reference of its sort in the article.

208.80.101.135 (talk) 16:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Canadian

Edit request on 17 March 2013

Please remove the section: "St. Patrick's Day occasionally turns violent due to the large number of intoxicated individuals celebrating in Canada. This was seen, for example, in the London, Ontario area in 2012, where college students lit a TV van on fire then threw bottles at firefighters (attempting to put out the fire) and police officers in the area."

I'm sure there have been acts of vandalism by drunken St. Paddy's revelers everywhere around the World, to make this sound like a normal occurrence in Canada is unfair. There have been 190 consecutive St. Patrick's Day parades in Montreal and they are not "occasionally violent".

[ 70.80.70.51 (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Removed as unsourced opinion. One incident does not a pattern make. --NeilN talk to me 19:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

St Patty Again

It would seem that some are determined that the issue of including "St Patty" should be revisited. Which is fine, but I would ask that previous annual discussions are read. These established previous consensus;

The source previously used has changed, and so can no longer be a cite. However, there are plenty of others, some of which are listed in the prior discussions

Please also note that discussion along the lines of "it's wrong because I/the Irish/this website says it's wrong" advances the case for removing "St Patty" not one single step forward. These opinons have been voiced before and are still irrelevant. Wikipedia contains what is verifiable, not what is "true". If enough people chose to call it "St Patty", and reliable sources reflect that, then that's what Wikipedia reflects. There is no wrong/right here, it is a simple case of what do people call it? If there are reliable sources that voice the opinion that "St Patty" is a mistake, then that's fine too, the article could and should include it. But these would equally establish that "St Patty" is a common enough name for the day, so would equally verify that it should be listed as an alternative name. Let the reader decide themselves whether it's wrong or right.

The article also has a global perspective, so while the Irish opinion is certainly notable, it is not the only one discussed. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

The question begged here is whether people choose to write "Patty" rather than "Paddy" for any particular reason. In previous years I pointed out that in ordinary speech in North America, the two words rhyme. It is not surprising that North Americans who are unfamiliar with the spelling distinction would make a spelling error. But to suggest, as EscapeOrbit does, that this is a terminological choice does not bear up. In fact, I would like EscapeOrbit to show us some citations where "Patty" is attested as an abbreviation for "Patrick" rather than for "Patricia". This is not an issue of "what people call it". It is an issue of "how people spell it" which is not the same thing. I urge EscapeOrbit to read, with some semblance of open mind, the linguistic discussion given last year. -- Evertype· 16:11, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
No, the question is not begged here. Wikipedia is a written medium. It contains words as they are written. Wikipedia is not the place for editors to indulge in speculative musings over what they think people mean. We've been through your linguistic theories before on this talk page. Whether you are correct or not, they are original research and therefore, irrelevant. I've also listed more than one examples of men called Patrick being known as Patty, but again this is irrelevant. What matters is what the reliable sources say.
Here's a new crop of cites from reliable sources, just from this year alone, to be going on with;
I could go on, and on, but you get the idea. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
And here are two that discuss the "Paddy/Patty" issue, from both sides, illustrating that yes, indeed, many people do call it Patty. Whether they are wrong or right is not Wikipedia's choice to make. Obviously it matters more to those arguing against "Patty", but that doesn't mean those using Patty are wrong.
And Patty as a boy's name, not that it makes any difference to the sources' use of it;
--Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:38, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't plan on getting into this discussion as it just keeps going around in circles - but I would like to state that the raft of links provided only seem to use the shortening in their titles, and not in the main body of their text; and also that none of them actually address the history and the reasoning behind the spelling. If anything, your raft of links further cements the fact that it is primarily the United States where that specific shortening is used. In addition, while Patty Mills is one example of a male with said name, the raft of pages listed in Special:PrefixIndex/Patty are pages about females named Patricia, a stark contrast to Special:PrefixIndex/Paddy. TheChrisD RantsEdits 16:41, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't believe we need a history of the use of "Patty" to verify that "Patty" is used, although of course, it would be nice if we did. I also pointed out above that Wikipedia articles should have a global perspective, so I don't know what difference it makes that it is primarily in the United States. The English language Wikipedia does include the States. I've also explained that it doesn't matter how many males are called "Patty". Verifiability is the key, and we have that in this case. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Since no-one has explained why "Patty" was removed, when there are a wealth of possible cites supporting its inclusion, can I revert its removal and cite it with another source? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Very well, I have reverted what was there by prior consensus and was removed prior to any discussion. I've also added two of the above links as reliably sourced cites. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 March 20113

Newfoundland and Labrador - not a stat holiday. ref. http://www.gov.nl.ca/lra/faq/ls_holidays.html. thx. 99.239.233.34 (talk) 00:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

DoneKuyaBriBriTalk 15:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Request for more pictures of monuments illuminated green

Someone please add more pictures of monuments turned green for St, Patrick's Day like the Pyramids, Christ the Redeemer Statue, Trinity College, White House fountain etc. Here are some in Dublin from 2012, there were many more in 2013 I'm not too familiar with editing Feljin J (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 March 20113

Off-site link at and of page goes to a defunct web site / domain. Pls remove. "The Life, Miracles and Prayers of St. Patrick of Ireland, Patron Saint of Ireland" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.246.195.102 (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Birmingham? Lol.

I sincerely doubt they have the third largest. I would of thought that in GB alone London & Liverpool would be larger - along with cities such as Belfast, Chicago and maybe a few other large US cities. I think the "claim" that it has the third largest is just Brummie's trying to make out that their city is a "global" one when it clearly isn't. London's poor little brother.--92.40.254.168 (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Do you have anything to back up your doubts? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 14:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"logjam of feasts" (and worse in Ireland in 1940 & 2008)

In 2008, I came across the remark about "logjam of feasts" that would result if Easter fell very early (causing other high-ranking feasts to be transferred that year because they cannot be celebrated during Holy Week or the Easter octave).

It says St. Patrick's (the patronal feast in Ireland) was celebrated in 1940 on April 3, and I see that to be a Wednesday. That year, Easter was March 23. The feasts of St. Joseph (usually March 19) and Annunciation (usually March 25) would have been transferred for that year to April 2 and April 1 respectively. That year had March 17, 19, 25 all falling during Holy Week or Easter octave; same situation happened in 2008, but in 2008 the following was used:

March 14 -- St. Patrick's

March 15 -- St. Joseph's

March 31 -- Annunciation

(i.e. St. Patrick's and St. Joseph's were placed on the closest available days BEFORE Palm Sunday)

(Easter in 2008 was March 23.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 22:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Photo - Gweedore, County Donegal

I was just noticing that the photo referenced above is of a parade with Santa Claus and Christmas trees. I wonder if maybe that is not a St. Patrick's Day parade. Could someone please verify? Gweedore, Country Donegal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.196.138.146 (talk) 13:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to remove dubious claim that Chatham County GA USA officially recognizes St. Patrick's Day

According to the county's published calendar, St. Patrick's Day is not a holiday

Further, this assertion was the only supporting evidence that "[SPD is] not a legal holiday in most of the United States" [emphasis mine] -- there is no concrete evidence St. Patrick's Day is a legal holiday anywhere in the United States. --216.248.178.206 (talk) 14:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Made the change. Also, more feedback would be welcomed here: Talk:Saint_Patrick's_Day_in_the_United_States#Opening_sentence_is_inaccurate --NeilN talk to me 15:10, 17 March 2014 (UTC)