Talk:Sajmište concentration camp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated GA-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities (Rated GA-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Correction and Detention Facilities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Belgrade (Rated GA-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belgrade, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belgrade on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
 
WikiProject Serbia (Rated GA-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Croatia (Rated GA-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon Sajmište concentration camp is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the quality and coverage of articles related to Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Yugoslavia (Rated GA-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon Sajmište concentration camp is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Wikipedia coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated GA-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Jewish history (Rated GA-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Discrimination (Rated GA-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
 


Direct quotes are too long[edit]

I just noticed that there are huge sections of direct quotes from a book in this article. Those quotes should be condensed, because Wikipedia isn't just supposed to copy and paste big chunks of text from other sources. The two very long quotes may even be a copyright violation, but I'm not certain.Spylab 11:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This is hilarious - it remembers me to a Viennese Royal Opera director who once claimed that Mozart's Figaro had too many notes! Quotes to be condensed??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.249.9.127 (talk) 23:18, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

See WP:QUOTE for Wikipedia's guidelines on using quotes. (Also note that 4.249.9.127 (talk · contribs) is a suspected sock puppet of a permanently and repeatedly-banned individual).Spylab 23:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Quotes fixed.Mtsmallwood (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Note related to my August 30 2007 fix[edit]

This user Spylab does not read this article nor references given in this article even though he was warned about it several times. He requested reference for numbers of victims given in this article, even though the reference is given along with the quote (Dr Hinko Salz's testimony, Adolf Eichmann Trial, Tel Aviv 1961)

The second problem with his 'correction' is insertion of even though between these two sentences

As of 2006 Sajmište is still not a memorial center. On February 11, 1993, the European parliament adopted the Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments.

which turns both statements into a false claim. The document (Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments) is just a set of recommendations - not obligatory to anyone, nor it mentione Sajmiste at all. But Spylab's 'correction' suggest that there are some obligations not fullfilled by someone. --4.249.6.37 02:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note that the above comment was posted by a sock puppet of an individual who has been permanently-banned from posting on Wikipedia due to personal attacks, disruptive edits and sock puppetry. Spylab 12:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Revisions January 19 2009[edit]

I paraphrased the quotes, broke up the text into smaller sections, added some links in the text, added some categories, added The Holocaust navbox, added categories, and did some other clean up, such as bringing material from the notes into the body of the article.Mtsmallwood (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Sept 6th 2007[edit]

I did not find it rational mentioning that Sajmiste was on the Belgrade outsikirts - not a singe reference found it rational. Moreover - it introduces ambiguity (occupied territory of Serbia vs. Independent State of Croatia)

Security Police is definitely not German Sichersheit Polizei - no need for this false linkage.

The Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments document has jurisdiction only over EU i.e. over her member states and it is not written to cover all concentration camps in Europe. So, this document is mentioned here out of the article context.

Linkages like As of 2006 are meaningless due to the fact that the text under such a link does not have any information related to this article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.75.44 (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Un-referenced[edit]

I completely removed

On February 11, 1993, the European parliament adopted the Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments.[1] However, it seems this does not pertain to

for seeing that reference as given leads nowhere. If someone can find online information about this resolution - it's ok with me to put the removed text back.

--Standshown (talk) 04:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

False and dubious references[edit]

Dubious - Drljevic. Denial of Drljevic's presence at Sajmiste given explicitly in

Dani smrti na Sajmištu - Logor na Sajmištu 1941-1944 godine by Lazar Ivanović, Mladen Vukomanović, Dnevnik, Novi Sad Yugoslavia 1969 Page 136. "Međutim, arhivska istraživanja su pokazala da Drljević nije imao veze sa logorom na Sajmištu"

About Yad Vashem list of concentration camps: Sajmiste is on that list see [1]

The text segment

On February 11, 1993, the European parliament adopted the Resolution on European and International Protection of Concentration Camps as Historical Monuments.[2] However, it seems this does not pertain to camp Sajmište, which is not listed among the names of the 22 largest camps for Jews in Europe in the Memorial Center Yad Vashem in the Hall of Memoirs in Jerusalem.[3][not in citation given] Of all the camps in the former Yugoslavia, Jasenovac is the only name listed[citation needed].

is falsely referenced or unreferenced at all. --I am Mario (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

error: gas van[edit]

This Van is clearly a Magirus. Nothing is known about gas vans from "Magirus". It should be removed because gas vans are known from the companies Saurer, [[Diamond T], Opel and Renault. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas Maierhofer (talkcontribs) 07:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

see Link: deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_vans --Holgerjan (talk) 14:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

NDH Territory[edit]

I wouldn't normally make an issue of it, but the mentioning of Independent State of Croatia in the lead section has a history in this article: there is an attempt at "whitewashing" or sidetracking the role of Serbian authorities concerning the camp. Yes, technically, it was located in NDH territory, but, terrible as they were, NDH puppet government had no role with this camp whatsoever. The camp was operated by Nazi, with assistance of Nedić's people, and it was meant exclusively for citizens of Serbia. Independent State of Croatia has nothing to do with it, and its mentioning in the lead, in my opinion, violates WP:UNDUE as an "attention diversion". No such user (talk) 11:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

again: gas van error[edit]

This Van is clearly a Magirus. Nothing is known about gas vans from "Magirus". It should be removed because gas vans are known from the companies Saurer, [[Diamond T], Opel and Renault.

Das Foto zeigt keinen Gaswagen. Es handelt sich bei diesem Fahrzeug offensichtlich um einen Magirus-Deutz. Nach allen Veröffentlichungen wurden nur Wagen der vier Firmen Diamond, Renault, Sauer und Opel umgebaut.

--- Vergleiche dazu folgenden Link: 

http: //www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_vans_de.html deathcamps

Der Fall des Vernichtungslagers Chelmno wurde durch die "Hauptkommission für die Untersuchung von Verbrechen der Deutschen in Polen" ab Mai 1945 untersucht (dies war der Name der Kommission zu Beginn ihrer Existenz). Die Kommission erhielt die Information, dass in der ehemaligen Ostrowski-Fabrik in der Stadt Kolo (ca. 12 km von Chelmno entfernt) ein Gaswagen steht, der laut Zeugenaussagen im Vernichtungslager Chelmno eingesetzt worden war. Der Wagen wurde gefunden, fotografiert und untersucht. Die damals aufgenommenen Fotos sind verwahrt im Archiv der Hauptkommission in Warschau (Signaturen: 47398, 47396, 47397, 47399, am besten ist Nr. 47398). Die Titel dieser Fotografien lauten auch heute noch: "ein Wagen zum Töten von Menschen durch Auspuffgase, in Chelmno". Eines dieser Fotos wurde abgebildet in Flemings Buch "Hitler and the Final Solution", mit der Information, dass es das Foto eines "Gaswagens" sei, der in Chelmno benutzt worden war. --87.142.146.158 (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC) (de.Wikipedia Benutzer:Holgerjan)

File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sajmište concentration camp/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC) I'll get to this one shortly. Regards.

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct.
1b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
2b. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines.
2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6a. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content.
6b. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. the tower caption needs adjusting (see below)
7. Overall assessment. On hold for seven days, a couple of comments to be addressed. Passed, all comments addressed.

Comments

  • There are some broken links between the citations and references, eg Ramet 2005 (should be 2006 per the refs) and Vojnovic 2013 (needs a year field in the citation template) that need addressing against criteria 2a.
  • There are a couple of duplicate links "Gruppenfuhrer" and the German language template.
  • There are some issues with not referencing some ranges of figures available in one referenced source and using figures from another. For example, Ramet p. 131 says 40,000 killed, of which 7,000 were Jews, and points to Shelach for discussion about the estimates, but Mojzes (47,000) has been used without mentioning numbers from the other sources. Ranges should be inserted here to avoid the impression that one source is preferred over another.
  • The camp was located in Staro Sajmište, not Novi Beograd, which wasn't built till after the war.
  • The tower photo is actually the tower of the old fairground, is it not? I think the caption should reflect that.
  • in the lead, "a gas van", not "the gas van" there were about 20 of those vans used by the Germans throughout Europe.
  • Shelach 1989, p. 1168–1169. should be Shelach 1989, pp. 1168–1169.
All comments have been addressed. 23 editor (talk) 18:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
  • fn 20 doesn't point to its source
  • After giving Turner's name in full at first mention, he becomes just "Turner" from then on
  • putting this on hold to get those last couple of things done, then she's good to go. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I think I've fixed the Turner bit (if I understood correctly). Thanks for this 23 editor (talk) 23:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I've tweaked the Salem cite, I know it isn't 100%, but at least it points to the source now. Passed. Well done. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, 23 editor (talk) 00:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyedit Nov 2013[edit]

Hi

Initial operation
  • "By October," - the previous section states that the camp was opened on 28 October, while this sentence claims that the killings were done before that. It also then talks about "more frequent killings occurring in mid-September, between 9 and 11 October, and on 11 November." Something seems off with the dates as described. After re-reading the previous paragraphs and sections, I still am not sure which is correct.

Checks:

  • Check for basic copyvio using Duplication Detector against 3 main refs - cannot complete as I do not have the books used.
  • Citation bot - broken?
  • dmy check script - not run
  • Dashes script - run
  • Enabled feedback tool - left for regular editors to choose implementation

I have given it one pass through, and will give it another later tonight, as well as running the other checks (my dashes script needs fixing for some reason). Chaosdruid (talk) 22:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I also have a problem with the refs and notes sections. They are all refs, including the notes section. A notes section is for [NB-1] etc, and I would rename them:

  • Notes -> sub of References, renamed to Citations
  • Books renamed as Bibliography
  • Websites separated from the current "Notes" section and put into references on their own, as it currently seems impossible to see where they were used as inline citations from the Websites section of References. Chaosdruid (talk) 23:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)