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Could someone add a link to Izzy Sanabria? He was instrumental in popularizing the term "salsa." His site is here: http://www.salsamagazine.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 12 February 2006
Edit request on 5 March 2012
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
Considering that Puerto Ricans became AMERICAN Citizens in 1917, the article refers to Puerto Ricans as immigrants. Puerto Ricans are AMERICANS not immigrants. In paragraph two: "Most specifically, however, salsa refers to a brand developed in the 1960s and '70s by Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants to the New York City area and its later stylistic descendants including 1980s salsa romantica and other seb-genres."
And...also later in the article...the term "Puerto Rican Immigrants" is used again...see below:
"The precise scope of salsa is highly debatable. Cuban, Dominican and Puerto Rican immigrants in New York have used the term analogously to swing or soul, which refer to a quality of emotionally and culturally genuine music in the African American community."
Perhaps when referring to Puerto Ricans, you might indicate or refer to Puerto Ricans as "Puerto Rican Americans" Others such as Cubans, Dominicans, and those from Latin America are immigrants.
Done Calling them Puerto Rican Americans loses the sense of recent arrival which is currently present. I've adjusted the text to use the term migrant instead. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 06:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
It may interest you to know that "American" citizenship was imposed on the Puerto Rican people by an act of Congress. It, therefore, is a statutory citizenship, not a citizenship guaranteed by the Constitution. As such, it can be revoked at the whim of Congress. Wake up, Puerto Ricans! It is way past time for us, as a nation, to attain our political independence from the "American" Empire. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 08:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)Alan1-11-1951
Article cleanup, and original research
Twice  I have restored the templates at the top of the page, ones that call attention to the need to clean up the article and warn the reader against original research. The templates are still applicable!
Cleanup: The article is a mess with regard to Wikipedia style; it bounces around from this aspect to that aspect without giving a smooth history of the topic, without telling a clear story of the early development and of the modern practice of salsa music.
Original research: per WP:NOR, this article should be the summary of our best published sources. It should not contain personal ideas or experiences. Unfortunately, it has been added to and expanded by a number of editors who do not cite any source at all, with facts that appear to be at odds with published sources. For instance:
- 220.127.116.11 – This set of changes by an IP editor make important changes without referring to a source.
- 18.104.22.168 – This set of changes by an IP editor repeats the problem.
- 22.214.171.124 – This set of changes by an IP editor continues with the same problems except a youtube link is cited, a deprecated link that was automatically removed by a bot. Worse, a direct quote from Ed Morales is modified! This cannot be allowed. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
In addition to politics and religion, perhaps polite company should not discuss salsa. :) This is a very charged subject. I've been aware of the chaotic nature of this WP article for awhile. At some some point, I intend to see if I can improve it. I can't really take it on at this time though.
Salsa music is basically Cuban popular music from outside of Cuba. Even salsa with say, Puerto Rican rhythms, or other non-Cuban elements, have grafted those elements onto what is essentially a Cuban scaffolding. That said, I don't think that the Salsa article should be an article about the original Cuban genres. Son, son montuno, ect. each have their own articles. The coining of the term salsa was initially motivated by politics and economics, but that's not the end of the story. It developed into a powerful form of cultural expression in NYC, PR, Columbia, Venezuela, etc. I have a video series where informants from each of those locals claim their people "created salsa." These conflicting opinions ought to be presented in as neutral a fashion as possible. One helpful approach might be to juxtapose opposed opinions, like Author A states: ". . ." However, author B disagrees, stating: " . . . " I don't see how the story of salsa music can be told without addressing the age old arguments which have plagued the topic from the beginning.
Considering the problems with this article, personal ideas or experiences should be removed, with strict adherence to the referencing of information. If the information cannot be backed up by published sources, that ought to be legitimate reason to delete it.Dr clave (talk) 00:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
The facts in this article have been chosen to heighten the importance of the Cuban roots of salsa music rather than the multi-culturalism that spawned it in New York. I see that the part of Puerto Rican musicians is trivialized in changes made by the IP editor. This pushing of a certain POV has made the article less accurate and less neutral. Because of this, I have placed a tag over the top of the article saying that the content is disputed. Binksternet (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
I will make attempt to clean up this article this week. I have sufficient documentation in my library to support what I write. I'll try to balance the competing theories and claims of the music's ownership.Dr clave (talk) 16:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
major re-write of two sections
- I have been keeping half an eye on your work here but I have not had the concentrated time that it takes to carefully weigh all the changes. One tiny little thing is that the article should only host one photo of Palmieri; two is too much. When I get the proper time away from work I will comment on the changes. April and May are very busy months for me. :/ Binksternet (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
I am from Ecuador and I hate Salsa, I’ve hated tropical music my whole life. If being Latin American means you have to dance Salsa I don’t even consider myself to be “Latino”. And believe me I am not the only who thinks this way (See: Alberto Fuguet, Leopoldo Tablante Alcalá, Cuarteto de Nos No somos latinos).
Like Mexican film director Alejandro González Iñárritu said in one interview, “In Music, Americans only want Ricky Martin. You have to shake your butt if you are Latin and want to be huge in America. That is not what it is to be Latin American. You don’t see people here shaking their butt. It is Americans (and Europeans) who see us as…folcloric” Magical Neoliberalism.
Gee, it is not even funny anymore. I am going to remove all references that relate Salsa to a pan-Latin-American identity. --Rivet138 (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- On page 46 of the Peter Manuel reference, he says that salsa "represents a potential Latino solidarity", that salsa suggests to some people that there can be a unified pan-Latin sound. It's a hopeful definition, not an absolute one.
- Frances R. Aparicio and Cándida Frances Jáquez say in Musical Migrations that "The use of these techniques allows the musicians to create a new salsa style that consists of elements of their musical vernacular fused with elements of a more pan-Latin salsa style. This innovation gives them the license to claim salsa as their own because part of their musical vernacular has now become part of the larger salsa style."
- Sheenagh Pietrobruno in Salsa And Its Transnational Moves says "The proliferation of salsa in Montreal has helped to forge a transnational Latin identity, one that reflects Benedict Anderson's idea of "imagined communities." Montrealers of diverse Latin backgrounds create a pan-Latin connection..."
- Elizabeth Drake-Boyt in Latin Dance says "Founding salsero Willie Colon refers to the international, pan-Latin social dance known as salsa..."
- Charley Gerard paraphrases Colon as well in Music from Cuba where he says "Colon skillfully frames his argument that salsa, a pan-Latin sensibility rather than a rhythm, is something new and original, and it is easy to be swayed."
- Michael Miller in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music History says "A more traditional Caribbean music is salsa. While it's now kind of a pan-Latin style, it originated on the island of Cuba, specifically from Cuban immigrants in the New York City area."
- Julie A. Sellers wrote in Merengue and Dominican Identity: "Salsa reached its climax in the 1970s and though it has remained a favorite Pan-Latin music..."
- Manning Marable and Vanessa Agard-Jones write in Transnational blackness that salsa has "become a Pan-Latin American musical genre connecting music with dance. The salsa movement, while connected to national projects, is also a part of a broader construction of Latin identity or Latinidad."
- Vincenzo Perna writes in Timba: the sound of the Cuban crisis that "Salsa is today an internationalized music style for a pan-Latin audience, often produced by pan-Latin bands."
- These authors provide a strong counterpoint to your personal impression that salsa cannot be pan-Latin. You would probably agree more with Roy Shuker who wrote in Popular Music: The Key Concepts that "Claims for salsa's expression of a pan-Latin consciousness are similarly based [on song lyrics common to all Latin countries]. Negus shows how the case of Reuben Blades shows the difficulties with any such straightforward correspondences, arguing instead for a more complex process of mediation of the music." Shuker points out that Blades writes socially committed songs that do not speak to all Latinos.
- At any rate, I think it is a mistake to try and efface from Wikipedia all mention of salsa and its notional pan-Latin identity. So much has been written about it that it would be wrong to do so. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, I gave you references, so it is more than a personal impression. Second, you cite mostly cases in the Caribbean or migrants from the Caribbean in North America, but South America is a different story. I challenge you to name me one single relevant Salsa musician from either Chile, Argentina or Brazil (not to mention that the inhabitants of the Andean region are believed to be horrible tropical music dancers) and maybe then we could discuss the genre’s pan-Latin reach. In contrast, I am 100% sure that there are more Rock bands in Mexico and South America than Salsa orchestras.
- I suppose you are aware that most of what is named as Latin America actually happens to be South America. So if most of Latin America hasn’t got a grip of Salsa we can’t really talk of a pan-Latin identity, can we? Therefore, we can conclude without a doubt that the notion of a pan-Latin identity in Salsa is false (personally I also find it discriminating but that’s a different story).
- In the 19th century a French aristocrat named Arthur de Gobineau wrote a book called An essay on the inequality of the human races. Till the second half of the 20th century most of the theses held in this book were believed to be scientifically true. Nowadays, however, most of what de Gobineau argumented is widely accepted to be not true. Although, de Gobineau inspired tons of works which followed his ideas, it wouldn’t be wise to poste his views just because there has been written much about them.--Rivet138 (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
- The sources you give are not the equal of the books I pointed to. A band on Youtube? No. The Alberto Fuguet piece published by a fine scholarly journal would be pretty good but he does not mention salsa so we cannot use it here. So we have your personal impression and some sources that don't fit the job... I don't think there is a good enough reason to remove all of the "pan-Latin" bits from the article. Certainly it will forever be true that Willie Colón and Eddie Palmieri have been described as promoting a pan-Latin music, even if you think they failed in the task. In the context of cosmopolitan cities with multicultural strains, the term pan-Latin applies in the sense that the various cultural influences can be combined in salsa, that the people can work together to play salsa, and dance to it, rather than remain antagonists. Perhaps the term "pan-Latin" is simply being used to describe a truce between Puerto Rican and Cuban immigrants in New York. Perhaps it is a lot larger than that. The one sure thing is that we should not remove the term because we think it's wrong; instead we should line up some powerful sources to argue that "pan-Latin" has not been effective. Give the reader both sides, in proportion. Binksternet (talk) 23:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
- In Fuguet’s article “I am not a magic realist” published by Salon magazine he says: “I don’t deny that there exists a colorful, exotic aspect to Latin America, but in my opinion, life on this continent is far too complex to be so simply categorized. It is an injustice to reduce the essence of Latin America to men in ponchos and sombreros, gun-toting drug lords and sensual salsa-swinging señoritas”.I am not a Magic Realist
- Leopoldo Tablante Alcalá, a scholar from Venezuela who has done research on Salsa, argues, in his article “Las multinacionales del disco y la comercialización de la salsa”, that the diffusion of Salsa was rather the result of a strategy of multinational labels like Sony Music and CBS to segregate the music market than that of a pan-Latin identity. And affirms that a lot of Latin Americans don’t feel at ease with it. Music Industries
- Sociologist Hernán Ibarra points out, in his book La otra cultura, that Salsa in Ecuador antagonizes with the Andean spirituality, which is conditioned by a demure, reserved type of dance. He also adds that in Quito, the capital city, Salsa has largely remained a sectarian cult among the middle class (who can afford dance lessons), as the popular sectors prefer “música rocolera” instead. La otra cultura
- By the way, that Band is the most popular Uruguayan Rock band ever, so it deserves more respect.
- Furterhmore, for an overall critique of a Latin American identity see: Walter Mignolo (The Idea of Latin America), José Joaquín Brunner ("Discurso contra el macondismo"), Jorge Volpi (El insomnio de Bolívar).--Rivet138 (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)