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Saraiki Speaking Areas :-
Ten districts in Sindh, 5 districts in Baluchistan, Seven distracts in punjab as per Pakistan Census 1998, Pakistan , three distracts from KPK Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, Pakistan, and two agencies are saraiki speaking area.LanguageXpert (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Dera Ghazi Khan
- Dera Ismail Khan
- Rahim Yar Khan
- Toba Tek Singh
- Frontier Region Tank
- Frontier Region Dera Ismail Khan
These distracts are also Saraiki
Saraiki is spoken in India, United Arab Emirates and Afghanistan also. Saraiki is second largest language in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with more than 2.5M. In United Kingdom. Saraiki is spoken by 400,000. In Canada, China, South Africa and United States saraiki is also spoken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 08:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Dear brother Ap meri baat q nahin smjay kay ap in punjabi/jhangvi/jaangli logon ko shaamil mt kro q k agr hum nay in kay 15 districts (Hafizabad,Mandi Bahaudin,Chakwaal, Sargodha, Khaushaab, Khanewal, Vehari, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara, Chaniot, Jhang, BahawalNagar,Toba Tek singh and Mianwali)ko hm nay apnay subay mea shaamil kr liyay to in ki sarakistan mea aksriyat ho jaegi...ye apnay ap ko saraiki nahin kehtay 1998 Census mea khud check kr lena in districts ko or even mianwali walon nay bhi kala bagh dam issue ki wja say kbi apnay ap ko punjab say alg nai smja, to mt lgao un ko moo.. Saraikistan (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Only 9 districts of Punjab Province are Saraiki Majority (Multan,Bahawalpur,Rahim yar khan,Lodhran,Muzaffargarh,Layyah,Bhakar,DG khan and Rajanpur).Please see the table below which is based on figures from Pakistan Census 1998 each District's profile book's Language distribution section.I have included 24 districts which are wrongly claimed by Saraiki people. Any one who has doubt could visit Pakistan Statistics Division (PSD) web site and could use the contact information provided on that web site so that he could ask for mailing to him the material i quoted above for his verification. Its an open challenge.
Language Breakup as per 1998 Pakistan Census of Districts of South and Central Punjab
|District||Population||Punjabi %||Saraiki %||Others %|
|Rahim yar khan||3,141,000||27.3||62.6||10.1|
|Toba Tek Singh||905,580||98.99||0.01||1.00|
Then why Bhakkar and Layyaha are not included in Saraiki language article?
Because in the census form there was not a thalochi option so people had no option but to tick Saraiki as language. People of bhakkar layyah are more loyal to Punjab due to 'Kalabagh Dam' and Greater thal canal' issue. they consider themself as thalochi of Sargodha division and not part of south punjab and like to be part of desert thal culture under Province Punjab. Saraikistan (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Dear, as shown in table Bhakkar and Layyaha are Saraiki. These two these distracts be added in the list of article Saraiki language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 10:07, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Brother! Because in the census form there was not a thalochi option so people had no option but to tick either Saraiki or Punjabi as language. In fact thalochi is a seprate dialect having both saraiki and punjabi features. it was categorized separably in Gierison research under Lahnda (Westren Punjabi) dialects not included in multani(Saraiki).. hope you will be very clear now. Saraikistan (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Saraiki not a language but a dialect of punjabi
Saraiki (South Punjabi) has 90 % lexical similarity with Majhi ( Standard Punjabi ) therefore is considered as a dialect of Punjabi by majority of local linguist based on dictionary to dictionary comparison as compare to forieng languist who base lessly classify it as a language after a minor research of 100 to 200 word list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchdreamer (talk • contribs) 09:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your statement is not enough. We need reliable sources before we can even begin a discussion here. --Taivo (talk) 13:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Seraiki, is a standardized written language as per few linguists and a dialect of punjabi as per some other linguists, belonging to the Indo-Aryan (Indic) language family — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchdreamer (talk • contribs) 17:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
What is your problem Mr Taivo. can you explain the grounds for reverting with out any reference. dont miss use your edit chair for fun and reverse only you can proof the edits wrong as suppourted by published material. REGARDZZZZZ Frenchdreamer (talk) 18:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Oh Taivo You Cant Hide From Genuine Quires
Can u answer these questions please Mr. Taivo + Kwami
(1) Who are the authors of reliable scientific linguistic works Foreign or locals ??
(2) How can any forigner language expert who cant speak these dialects can classify them as an separate language only on the basis of 200 to 300 word comparison ??
(3) What is the difference between a dialect and language?
(4) Can you learn these dialects then challenge my edits?
(5) Y AUSTRAILIAN, US , BRTISH, South African english are not classified as different languages with similer level of differences?
(6) Y wikipages on these dialects of english contain word comparisons if i m not allowed to post word comparison in these dialects of punjabi...bcoz u remove them by arguing ITS NOT A DICTIONARY?
(7). Why these are not reliable refrences with such a famous authors Book name: 3 HINDUSTANI LANGUAGES Page 99 Author: Doctor K S BEDI...Book name: PUNJABI LISANIYAT (LANGUISTIST) Page 142 Author: Shehbaz Malik...Book name: SHORT HISTORY OF PUNJABI LITERATURE Page 17 Author: Qureshi Ahmed Hussain..Book name: URDU IN PUNJAB Page 76 Author: Hafiz Mehmood Shirani
(9) Is wikipedia talk page arguments and logics presented not enough to revert wt u had been doing with out convincing me ?
(10) Are you not taking un fair advantage of your position as wikipedia administrators?
(11) Has any native speaker objected on my word list which clearly show how correct that was?
(12) If I publish a fake "scientific linguistic work" in your mother tongue and relate it to monkey language then will you post it on wikipedia as a scientific linguistic research ??? LanguageXpert (talk) 12:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Read WP:BRD. If someone reverts your edits then you have to justify on the Talk Page and build a consensus before re-editing. You have failed miserably at even attempting to build a consensus. If you want us to consider your sources, then you have to provide full publication details so that they are available for our inspection and verification--not just a name and author's name. --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello LanguageXpert ap nay sahi goron ki waat lga di hay bhai. ye log jaan bujh kr hm saraiki punjabi potwari or hindko k naam pr taqseem kr k hmay lraana chahtay haen. HELLO TAIVO THE QUESTION ME AND LANGUAGE EXPERT ARE ASKING YOU THAT WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME RULE BECAUSE RULES ARE SAME FOR EVERY ONE. SO YOU STARTED REVERTING FIRST SO YOU SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS BY FOLLOWING YOUR WP RULES FIRST AS A LEADER. SO I AM RE EDITING SO YOU FIRST BUILT CONSENSUS ON THIS TALK PAGE AND THEN REVERT. Frenchdreamer (talk) 16:58, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Read WP:BRD. If you don't understand BRD, or are unwilling to follow its procedure, then you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia. 1) You made an edit. 2) I reverted the edit for lack of reliable sources and pushing a POV. Then 3) YOU start discussing on the Talk Page to build a consensus. That's the procedure we follow on Wikipedia. It is YOUR job now to discuss why you think your edits should be in the article based on reliable sources. You need to stop shouting and pointing fingers and start doing your job as editors--providing reliable sources to support your suggested edits and building a consensus for them. Only after you have built a consensus do you then edit them into the article. --Taivo (talk) 17:59, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
HELLO TAIVO BRO, THE QUESTION ME AND LANGUAGE EXPERT ARE ASKING YOU THAT WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SAME RULE BECAUSE RULES ARE SAME FOR EVERY ONE. SO YOU STARTED REVERTING FIRST SO YOU SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS BY FOLLOWING YOUR WP RULES FIRST AS A LEADER. SO I AM RE EDITING SO YOU FIRST BUILT CONSENSUS ON THIS TALK PAGE AND THEN REVERT and you must also answer question raised by languageXpert i think he is a linguist and professional but you are a non professional in linguistics and a simple IT data operator i guess therefore you cant answer genuine questions Frenchdreamer (talk) 12:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently you are illiterate, Frenchdreamer. I addressed your comment in my previous comment. At this point, I must assume you are nothing more than a sock of User:LanguageXpert (who is not an expert) and a simple edit warrior. --Taivo (talk) 13:31, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Mr Taivo You never set an example because you are clueless and I think you forgot LanguageXpert ten questions, you better answer those questions if you have any geniune knowledge. what do you know about our sweet Punjabi dialects ? Can you speak them ? I think you are a chronic freek type charecter. what about Kwami is he your SOCK Frenchdreamer (talk) 17:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Dear, Saraiki is a language, it is not a dialect. Riasti dialect, Shah puri dialect, Multani dialect, Multani language, Thalochi dialect, Thalochi ,Derawali dialect articles. I suggest merging these articles , as the all these are same. And also be Redirected to Saraiki language. Also Jhangvi dialect is dialect of Saraiki. Kindly See these External Links http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338
- Department of Saraiki, Islamia University, Bahawalpur was established in 1989 and Department of Saraiki, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan was established in 2006. Saraiki is taught as subject in schools and colleges at higher secondary, intermediate and degree level.
Allama Iqbal open university Islamabad, and Al-Khair university Bhimbir have their Pakistani Linguistics Departments. They are offering M.Phil. and Ph.D in Saraiki. Five T V channels and Ten Radio Stations are Serving Saraiki language — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:17, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Map of Saraikistan
- This is a useless map. What area is covered? Who proposes this? — kwami (talk) 10:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- This map is proposed by all Saraiki People, Saraiki Parties and Saraiki Movements.It is published in all newspapers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. It is not a language map, but a political map. And even if it actually were a language map, the labeling is not in English. --Taivo (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
An detailed list of Areas and population of Saraiki speaking Areas is shown. This will help to understand the Saraiki speaking region.This is English language.
Your map is only a political map of new province SOUTH PUNJAB including 2 districts of Kyber Pakhtunkhah on administrative basis not on language basis which includes 11 Saraiki districts ( DI Khan, Tank, Bhakker, Layyah, DG khan, Rajanpur, MuzzafarGarh, Multan, Lodhraan, Bahalwalpur and Rahimyar khan) and 12 Punjabi majority districts (Toba tek singh, Chaniot, Jhang,Khanewal,Vehari, Bahawalnagar,Khaushab, Sargodha, Mianwali, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara) as per Census of Pakistan 1998. u can check them in district profile books percentages of languages as choosen by the people of those district as their mother tongue. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
No, It is a language map. It may be treated as language map also. South Punjab is nothing. Toba tek singh, Chaniot, Jhang,Khanewal,Vehari, Bahawalnagar,Khaushab, Sargodha, Mianwali, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara are also saraiki speaking areas. More than Saraiki waseb, Saraiki is native language in the districts of Chakwal, Hafizabad, Mandi Bahuddin, Faisalabad, Okara and Toba Tek Singh are also Saraiki.www.sikhchic.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
As I told you to check Census of Pakistan 1998 in each district profile books percentages of languages as chosen by the people of those district as their mother tongue.Your wish to claim every district of Punjab Province as Saraiki speaking is only your wish and not a ground reality, Even if you still keep insisting that 24 out of 35 total district of Punjab province are Saraiki then this means that majority of Province Punjab is Saraiki then in fact Punjab is a saraiki majority province. then why u need a separate province? do u have any logic ? No brother you need to research first then claim. Wiki pedia is about facts and realities NOT ABOUT BIASNESS and WISHES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:55, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
It is clear from your statement that this map and list of Saraiki areas be posted in Saraikistan. I agree with you, So it be posted in saraikistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 11:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I think you need to learn english first to understand what my point of view is. LOUD & CLEAR that the number of ditricts shown in the table and map are not saraiki majiority other then 2 in khyber pakhtunkhah and 9 in punjab as per census of pakistan 1998 district language profile....please please please u check the census first then try to force yourr false agenda THANKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
It is spoken in the Central Pakistan where all Provinces meet (North Sindh, South Punjab, South Kyber Pakhtunkha, North east Baluchistan),therefore it is considered a form of punjabi which is influenced by Sindhi, Baluchi and Pashto to some extent.Frenchdreamer (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Other side of the coin which is also needed to be reflected in this article
it is a cluster of Multani , Riyaasti , Thalochi and Derawali dialects. these are the oldest and most conservative dialects of the Punjabi language spoken in South of Pakistani Punjab. .It is also spoken in the North Sindh, South kyber pakhtunkh North East Balochistan 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Both contrasting point of view should be reflected in the article because it is suppourted by reliable source of Linguists division of Patiala University http://www.learnpunjabi.org/intro1.asp Punjabi University, Patiala — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saraikistan (talk • contribs) 14:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
I also agree that this is a reliable source so this point of view should also be reflected because every aspect of an issue should be brought to light to the world as an object encyclopedia Saraikistan (talk) 15:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Other side of the coin is also evident from the name Punjabi because it means language of Punjab. The name "Punjab" means "five waters" in Persian (panj ab) and refers to five major eastern tributaries of the Indus River. The historical Punjab region, now divided between Pakistan and India, is defined physiographically by the Indus River and these five tributaries. One of the five, the Beas River, is a tributary of another, the Sutlej River, and lies entirely in present day India, well within the eastern half of historical Punjab.
The British linguist George Abraham Grierson came to the conclusion that a group of dialects known collectively as "western Punjabi" spoken north and west of the Punjab heartland, in the Indus valley itself and on the lower reaches of the other four tributaries (excluding the Beas River), in fact constituted a language distinct from Punjabi. He christened this group of dialects "Lahindā" in a volume of the Language Survey of India (LSI) published in 1919. (The -ā ending has on its own given rise to a bit of terminological confusion because, since "Lahnda" is a noun, not an adjective, some linguists of India have preferred to use the adjective "Lahndi" for the sake of consistency with the way of naming the other Indo-Aryan dialects and languages.) He grouped as "southern Lahnda" the dialects that are now recognized as Saraiki. Grierson tentatively identified the boundary between Punjabi and "Lahnda" as a north-south line running from the Gujranwala District to the former Montgomery District (near the town on Sahiwal). This line lies well west of Lahore.
Later dialectologists have criticized details of the Lahnda/Lahndi construct or even denied its validity entirely. For most workers in this field, however, the Lahnda controversy has had little relevance to classification of the dialects of the metropolis of Lahore and of other localities along the Pakistan-India border. In the aftermath of the Partition of 1947, some investigators supposed that the Punjabi speakers in new Pakistan might give up their native dialects and adopt one or another "Lahnda" dialect; but this did not occur. Saraikistan (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
yes saraikistan i totally agree with you because In Indo-Aryan dialectology generally, the presence of transitional dialects creates problems in assigning some dialects to one or another "language". However, over the last century there has usually been little disagreement when it comes to defining the core region of the Punjabi language. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Punjabi University, Patiala,india takes a very accurate definition of Punjabi in that it classifies Saraiki/Multani, Dogri and Pothohari/Pothwari as Punjabi. Accordingly, the University has issued the following list of dialects of Punjabi:: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Cite error: Invalid
<ref>tag; no text was provided for refs named
aiou.edu.pk(see the help page).
- Punjabi University, Patiala
- Cite error: Invalid
<ref>tag; no text was provided for refs named
Shackle_1970:240(see the help page).
- Masica 1991:20
- Masica 1991:25
- Burling 1970:chapter on India
- Advanced Centre for Technical Development of Punjabi Language, Literature and Culture
- Burling, Robbins. 1970. Man's many voices. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.
- Ethnologue. Indo-Aryan Classification of 219 languages that have been assigned to the Indo-Aryan grouping of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European languages.
- Ethnologue. Languages of India
- Ethnologue. Languages of Pakistan
- Grierson, George A. 1904-1928. Grierson's Linguistic Survey of India. Calcutta.
- Masica, Colin. 1991. The Indo-Aryan languages. Cambridge Univ. Press.
- Rahman, Tariq. 2006. The role of English in Pakistan with special reference to tolerance and militancy. In Amy Tsui et al., Language, policy, culture and identity in Asian contexts. Routledge. 219-240.
- Shackle, C. 1970. Punjabi in Lahore. Modern Asian Studies, 4(3):239-267. Available online at JSTOR. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you very much for providing such detailed information and developing sound grounds for consensus, i also agree that this aspect should also be covered in article. 15:58, 10 November 2012 (UTC) Saraikistan (talk) 16:00, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Before you and your anon IP sock edit the article (again) and call it a "consensus", perhaps you should wait until you have a real WP:CONSENSUS. I'll decide whether I agree with this edit after looking at some of your actually reliable sources. A website that purports to teach Punjabi is on the lowest level of reliability. I could post a blog and call it "The Universal University of All Knowledge", but that doesn't make it so. --Taivo (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello Taivo "that's positive" that..... you will check it but one thing is for sure.....: in my opinion you also know the fact that..... how much doubt prevail over its recognition as a language or a dialect and..... how many linguists classify it as a language or and few others as dialect..... I am happy that you will not make it as ego issue and give it a consideration.... my suggestion is that you allow to be inserted A new section which allows the stance which we local linguistics and dialectics present i.e. south cluster of western Punjabi (LENDHA).... On personal front i have a lot of research to share with you ....that clearly supports that how beautiful this dialect quantum of Punjabi language is from North Jammu's DOGRI to South Rahimyar khan's RIYAASTI and from East Delhi City'Standard Indian Punjabi with hindi sansikrit replacing Persian Arabic words to West Abbottabad's Hindko.....what is very interesting that all these extreme dialects speaking people when meet can understand each other and both use their own dialect or a more central LAHORE's Majhi (Standard Punjabi)dialect.......be it school and offices of ALL MAJOR CITIES in this above stated area.... Rawalpindi or Multan or Lahore or Dehli or Abbottabad or Faisalabad.........So i wellcome your research and very hope full that if you are the person who is to say YES to conclude WP Consensus then you will allow to reflect other side of coin on the page....by doing so i am not asking you to remove its language status but i want to balance the article by covering saraiki as a dialect point of view also on the page.........ANY WAYS THANKS BROTHER AND LOOKING FORWARD FOR POSITIVE RESPONSE. Saraikistan (talk) 04:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I suggest a formal move discussion is warranted for moving this article. The material has been contentious for starters. Then, South Punjabi doesn't sound like a language. A google search throws up almost no references to a language known as South Punjabi. All these make this a move of doubtful validity. --regentspark (comment) 16:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, most linguists would agree. Saraiki is commonly classed as "just" a dialect of Punjabi and calling it South Punjabi is not wrong. Please see  for a 1305p long authoritative description of the Indo-Aryan languages.
- Well, there is Dhani dialect (and many others) so why not Saraiki dialect? --regentspark (comment) 18:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Maria seems intelligent and well informed, so for the most part I've been standing back and seeing how this ends up. I don't have access to Cardona, just Masica, who doesn't go into a lot of detail with dialects/minor languages. It would be nice if we had a single RS that covered all Indic lects, so that we had consistency across the subcontinent, but I'm not sure such a thing exists. The main thing I've been reverting are unsourced claims that X is a dialect of Y, and inconsistencies within the articles, where we define A as X+Y, but then list its components as X+Y+Z. Basically, whichever lects we decide are "Punjabi", the Punjabi article should treat them as Punjabi, and e.g. the ISO codes, population, and geographical range should be consistent with this. — kwami (talk) 21:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know how much detail there is, but if C. has a list of Indic languages and the dialects that comprise them, that would be useful for all our articles. One of the problems is ISO language names which aren't mentioned in our refs. They could simply be minor dialects, but get treated as languages on WP because all we have to follow is E16. — kwami (talk) 23:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- Cardona got tired of waiting for anyone to develop any kind of definitive list and subgrouping of I-A languages so he published without one (the Introduction has a nice piece of frustration writing on his part), so Masica is the only volume of specifically I-A that has a list. --Taivo (talk) 00:24, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Kwamikagami for your kind praise and I would also like to Thank other editors too for such a professional disscusion. Actually Cardona has a list of Indic languages and the dialects that comprise them, which would be useful for all articles on indo aryan languages and being a local person I 100% agree with him because this list is truly based on the principle that the term 'language' has to be distinguised from the term 'dialect' only on the basis of mutual intengibility. I am listing them as under
- Punjabi= 129 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian and Pakistani Punjab including Majhi, Doabi, Hindko, Dogri, Lahnda and Saraiki.
- Sindhi= 20 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Pakistani Sindh (Lari, Vicholi, Sureli and Lasi) and Kachhi of North Gujrat.
- Marathi= 75 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Maharashter excluding Khandeshi.
- Gujrati= 45 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Gujrat excluding Bhilli.
- Hindi =420 Million Speakers (2001) comprising dialects of Indian States of Dehli,UP, Haryana, Rajhastan, Bihar, CP and Chatisgarh
- Bangala= 230 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Bengal and Bangladesh.
- Oriya= 34 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Orrisa.
- Assamees= 17 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Assam.
- Nepali= 15 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Nepal.
- Sinhali= 14 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Sri lanka excluding Tamil.
- Konkani= 2 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian State Goa.
- Kashmiri= 5 Million Speakers (2001) comprising all dialects of Indian occupied Disputed Kashmir Valley.Maria0333 (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I took a look at Cardona and though his entire discussion of Saraiki (he spells it Siraiki) is subsumed under Punjabi, he does seem to treat Saraiki differently from other dialects. For example, he states that it Siraiki speakers are classified as Punjabi speakers by the Pakistani census but that they would "prefer to define themselves as speakers of Siraiki" (p. 585) and that it "is the variety most consistently divergent from MSP norms and the one with the best claim to separate recognition" (p. 586). He also contrasts Saraiki language elements with Punjabi language elements pointing to differences (pp. 588, 590, 593, 594, 602-613, etc.), though within a broader discussion of Punjabi. My impression is that, in modern Pakistan, Saraiki is considered to be a variant of Punjabi but, and this is according to Cardona, it is different enough for it to have once been considered a separate language. Perhaps, like the Hindization of North Indian languages, there is a parallel Punjabization of languages in the Punjab region of Pakistan. Anyway, that's the scoop from Cardona. --regentspark (comment) 19:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Great work RegentsPark but I and kwamikagami had a long professional discussion over the fact and we both agreed and I hope most of us will agree that a dialect is only separate language when it is not mutually intangible. Saraiki is 100% mutual intangible and inter communicable with Majhi Hindko Doabi or Lahnda . Therefore Cardona on the basis of mutual intangibility classified all Indo Aryan languages Perfectly and I being a local 100% endorse and agree with his work. as far as the statement that locals prefer to define themselves as speakers of Siraiki, what if they prefer to call them self Russian. Secondly There is a political agenda to achieve a separate province because South Punjab is not as developed as North Punjab so we have to consider the sociopolitical background since 1964 that's why they invented the term saraiki to present them self differently.It is not only Cardona but 100,s of local linguists and new foriegn linguistic publications are classifing Saraiki as a dialect of Punjabi. Please see http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=95&menu=004 , Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow:2012:Punjabi Dialects:Beta script publishing:6134873527, 9786134873529 , AND Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=BmA9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Maria0333 (talk) 19:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't disagree Maria and I think that Cardona is clearly including Saraiki as a dialect of Punjabi. The entire discussion there is subsumed under the heading of Punjabi language. Any discussion about the degree of separation between Saraiki and MSP would, at best, go in a section in the article. It does seem to me that, like Dhani or Potohari, the article should be titled Saraiki dialect. At least, that is, based on the evidence from Cardona (since I'm no language expert). --regentspark (comment) 20:12, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes Regents Park i agree that you are not a linguist but you appear to me a intelligent editor thats why you are also agreeing with me and Kwamikagami on this issue. So I am moving this article in to Saraiki dialect and also making few edits in to article along with references in order to incorporate crux of discussion between all of us.Maria0333 (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
This article is redundant with the Riasti dialect, Shah puri dialect, Multani dialect, Multani language, Thalochi dialect, Thalochi ,Derawali dialect articles. I suggest merging these articles , as the all these are same. And also be Redirected to Saraiki language. Also Jhangvi dialect is dialect of Saraiki. Kindly See these External Links http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=skr http://globalrecordings.net/en/language/16338 I'm just an IP address, otherwise I would do it myself. <The preceding is an unsigned content addition by 184.108.40.206 Talk (contribs) 12:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. Nothing found in your references about changvi and shahpuri. For other 4 dialects it is necessary to keep people informed about those historic dialects sepratly which are claimed by both Saraiki as well as Punjabi people, Linguists and Political parties and difference of opinion is also found on recent international linguist research from old research so As a matter of fact, most linguists would agree. Saraiki is commonly classed as "just" a dialect of Punjabi and calling it South Punjabi is not wrong. Please see  for a 1305p long authoritative description of the Indo-Aryan languages. Punjabi is comprised of many dialects that form a dialect continuum. The dialects that comprise this continuum eventually merge with Hindi in India and Sindhi in Pakistan. The dialects enjoy a relatively high level of mutual intelligibility and can be differentiated slightly with respect to their lexicons. In India, the key dialects of Punjabi are: Majhi, Doabi, Malwai, and Powadhi. In Pakistan, the key dialects are Majhi, Pothohari, Hindko, and Multani. Following the work presented in Grierson’s (1905) Linguistic Survey of India, a number of Indic scholars have further divided Punjabi into two principal languages – Western Punjabi or Lahnda and Eastern Punjabi. This decision, however, is controversial and by no means reflects the majority view in Indic linguistics. See here. Modern linguists Nataliia Ivanovna Tolstaia, Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow, write that in practice there is no contrast between Eastern or western Punjabi to the extent that it could be termed as such as different languages and speakers of Eastern or western Punjabi alike use same literary language that is why many Punjabi scholars are inclined to regard both as a form of single language Punjabi. See here, and [Lambert M Surhone, Mariam T Tennoe, Susan F Henssonow:2012:Punjabi Dialects:Beta script publishing:6134873527, 9786134873529 here.] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maria0333 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)