Talk:Scapular

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Comment[edit]

I am guilty of major dumping into this article out of the Catholic Encyclopedia. I'm probably going to slowly wikify and clarify some of the texts, translate the Latin, and get rid of some of the more obscure citations.

I do not understand what the business about a "third order" means; apparently it relates to degrees of monasticism. If someone could clarify that, or better, rephrase it in more contemporary language intelligible to non-RCs, I'd appreciate it.

I also have heard of a "green scapular" but it doesn't seem to be on the list. Smerdis of Tlön 16:54, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure if having a section for each scapular is really vital; are they all notably important? Perhaps a section for th important ones, and maybe new pages for the very special? The article seems somewhat cluttered with all of them. Whosyourjudas (talk) 21:39, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I did a little bit, but not enough. The point with the "Third Order" is this: The original Orders are termed "First Orders" (Think Franciscans, Benedictines, Dominicans...). When they created a feminine version, that is called the "Second Order". The third order was originally lay people who had enough duties in the world that they could not fully join a convent, but wished to share in the order's spirituality. These make promises, maybe even vows, but generally live outside the walls of the convent -- there are very large numbers of Third Order Franciscans. For the Franciscans, the First Order is the Order of Friars Minor (O.F.M.), the Second Order is the Poor Clares. The "confraternities" mentioned in the article are an even lower level of connection (like a commitment to say a few prayers each day).
Really, today, the Brown Scapular has 99% of the mind-share. You occasionally hear about the green scapular (I don't remember who it is connected with, but confirm that it exists.) and the red scapular, but the brown one is "the Scapular". Any priest can induct you into the Confraternity of the Brown Scapular (or whatever its official name is). In a lot of places, this is done as a matter of routine when receiving First Communion.
I axed a paragraph or two of unnecessary detail, but this article needs some "being bold". Mpolo 14:36, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)
I was very bold - I removed all info on specific scapulars, and moved the brown scapular to its own article: Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. If an article is written for the green scapular, it should probably be added to the same section in the article as the new link. This might be overly bold, but I think it's necessary. Whosyourjudas (talk) 04:52, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I restored a little bit of info about the brown scapular, so a casual reader gets at least a little without going to the separate article. I have also tweaked the headings a bit. I'll try to get some info about the other relatively common scapulars to round out that section.Mpolo 10:55, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
Looks great - adding the summary was a good idea. Good luck with the others. Whosyourjudas (talk) 21:34, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Green Scapular is not really a Scapular, and is often referred to as the Green "Scapular." Ephraem 03:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian Joseph Morgan (talkcontribs)

Inoperative external links[edit]

The following external links were not working, have therefore removed them from the article. Should they become operative again, and show themselves not to be duplications of material in other links, kindly return them to the article. Thank you. 02:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Article clean up[edit]

I think this article needs some serious clean up, and I would like to get suggestions from those who watch this page about how it can be improved before I change it. Please feel free to add to the list below or discuss:

  • References: There are very few references and statements are made in passing with very little justification. Many statements here are true, as far as I know, at the micro level of focus but they lack references. But some are clearly mistaken, e.g. the info on the Sabbatine Privilege was clearly wrong and contradicted other Wikipedia pages as well. I fixed that but there are other problems as well. And the color mapping is really confused, and indeed incorrect for there are at times several scapulars of a given color.
  • Separation: I think the small devotional scapulars need a separate page. They are really a different creature now, after the year 1600.
  • Color confusion: There are 18 approved small scapulars and I added that list to the page. But specific pages for reach need to be built and currently "White scapular" just leads to one of the several white scapulars. That needs to change.

So I think it would be best to have a general page called "Scapular" that discusses the history etc. and two subpages, one for it as a large wearable clothing item, called Scapular habit perhaps and another as a small Devotional scapular. The devotional page will then have to have 18 subpages, each for a specific small scapular and eventually with a photo, history, promises and indulgences attached etc. This will take work, but it does not all need to be done tomorrow, or next week. I think 30-60 days is a reasonable timeframe to fix the current chaos and build these 20 pages. In a year or so people may eventually build subpages for the Scapular habits with teh various orders and what they wear. But that is another project in itself and I do not know much about that topic. Anyway, teh devotional scapulars are the most widespread, so those should be fixed first. Comments will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 16:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Progress Report: Nobody commented on the above, so I assumed there were no objections to the obvious fact that there were too few references, several major errors and many missing facts. Anyway, here is what I ended up doing:
  • I built 11 or 12 pages for the missing approved scapulars and linked them from the text. It was easier than I thought and in most cases I added more than one source for each page. However, I see no public domain images for these, but they can be seen in sales Catalogs. Does anyone know how to get images for scapulars added to WikiCommons without copyright problems? That would be nice.
  • I added a history section that was really missing. It is amazing how closely Rubens painted St Teresa of Avila in a scapular in 1615 to resemble a photograph of St Thérèse of Lisieux in 1895. Even the pose is similar.
  • I added many references and rewrote various parts of various sections to make them compatible with the references. The article used to have 10 references, now it has over 40 distinct ones. I tried to give every paragraph a couple of references. I have even more references and will add them over the next few days.
Anyone with images of Scapulars, please add to WikiCommons and leave a note on this talk page. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)