Talk:School of Economic Science

Neutrality

The Past

I read the "Secret Cult" book which attacks the School many years ago. The authors were professional journalists working, if I recall, for one of the main London evening newspapers. I don't know if all their allegations were accurate or not, but this section - especially the second paragraph - includes an unsourced defense against some of the allegations. One has to assume it is written by someone affiliated with or sympathetic to the School. "Nowadays the School is very open about what it teaches." Not in its advertising it isn't - to this day, the posters on the subway and magazine ads do not explain that the School teaches "a particular philosophy". Nor do they mention that "the student will be invited to a meditation initiation ceremony which is of vedantic inspiration". Maybe there's nothing wrong with any of that, but to make these points in a Wikipedia article is to advance an unsupported POV. Simply heading the section "The Past" is an implicit claim that "The Present" is different - maybe it is, but no evidence is cited. KD

I disagree. If you refer to the School's website, there is a great deal of information about the philosophy, its origins, meditation etc.There are number of people hostile to the school and who criticise it. They are free to do so, but should not use Wikipedia as a tool to pursue their "campaign". In the interests of openess and factual accuracy visit the website.In the past the school was criticised for a lack of openess, and has done all it can to remedy that. One of the principles in the school is tolerance and another is that nothing taught should be accepted or rejected unless the student verifies it for themselves. The book refered to was written over twenty years ago, and in my view does not reflect accurately the present. The website is http://www.schooleconomicscience.org/84.69.132.114 15:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If we want to talk about unsupported POV, I object to the misleading statement: "Apparently while the under cover journalists were on their 'stake outs' they were offered cups of tea by members of the school." The only purpose for this sentence that I can deduce is to imply that the "tea" was laced with something. That paragraph continues: "The book was taglined as a A full expose of a strange and destructive organization that is penetrating the corridors of power. There were apparently links with key members of the Liberal party in Britain." Again, these are clearly intended to IMPLY something, without any attempt at verification.

Is this a "storm in a tea cup"? Wikipedia should not be used by those seeking only to criticise.The information about the school is freely available on the website - link above.

Another neutrality issue is related to the external links provided at the bottom of the page. The link entitled "General discussion of the SES" is a link to what could hardly be called a "general discussion" when the core contributors are disaffected ex-students of the school or relatives of same. The title of the link should be changed accordingly.

Removed a great deal of the unsourced material which served only to defend the school from the sourced criticisms. The SES web-site cannot serve as a third-party source for this article. I don't believe the school was even founded by MacLaren - by his father, surely - but I've left that for the time being. Any attempts to redress the balance in favor of the SES will need to be supported by citations.KD Tries Again 18:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)KD

Okay, corrected the founder - it was Andrew MacLaren, and the school was originally a vehicle to promote Henry George's land tax theory.[1][2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KD Tries Again (talk • contribs) 19:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

There is clearly more information about the belief system underpinning the SES system available on the SES website these days which is to be applauded. The so-called "campaign" against the school has long called for greater transparency and it is great to see that the School is responding to past criticisms. However many of the more potentially controversial aspects of the School come under the umbrella of the SES principle of "measure" which guides member's behaviour. There is a mention of "measure" but no description of it, on the SES website. As this is a guiding principle for member's behaviour, I am surprised a description is not included on the wikipedia entry or on its website. Its a bit like explaining christianity without mentioning the ten commandments or catholicism without the catechism etc. Wikisatva 13:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC.)

Miles Dogood: Certainly advaita contain the reasonable idea that leading a measured life - that is to say, a life which is not dominated by selfish passion and sudden whim - generally has a better chance of being a happy and useful life than one that is dominated in this way. In my view it would take some stretch of the imagination to consider such a view particularly controversial. Or even remarkable enough to be especially highlighted. Those interested in knowing more about the philosophy on offer are free to attend one of the introductory courses and then to continue their studies or not, as they please. Those not interested are equally free not to attend. The School's position is to welcome those who wish to study there, and respect those who do not.

I'll edit in an attempt to be more constructive as to why I think the absence of a description of the principle of measure is significant and leaves the wiki entry so incomplete as to be almost meaningless (and the SES website also): 1) all religious groups start off with nice basic principles like "measure" (eg love others as yourself or live a selfless live undominated by passion and whim etc) but differ in many many ways in the interpretation of what this means in terms of expected ideal behaviour of their adherents. In fact it is these differences in interpretation that define the different religious groupings (and which matter so much that groups tend to split over these interpretations eg the current debate in Anglicism over homosexuality) 2) specifically within the School of Economic Science, what is expected of members in their behaviour and if it is so uncontroversial, why not explain the principles openly? 3) with apologies for rehashing the obvious, the particular SES interpretation of what a "measured" life is - expecting women and men to conform to very stereotyped ideas of femininity and masculinity (as in the women being expected to wash the men's clothes at SES retreats in the past (at least? is this still the case?), whether one can be gay and living a "measured" life, prescriptive opinions on what music and art is 'in' or 'out', predicating a view of the measuredness or not of particular composer's or artist's work on their lifestyle, particular view of having a disability - these are interpretations that are controversial for many people. 4) the application of measure within the SES itself: it is no secret that ex-members and ex-pupils have spoken of excessive zeal, bullying and group-pressure on members to conform to the interpretations of measure as described by the SES. In Advaita it is standard to have a personal relationship with a guru - as this is not part of the structure in the SES and there is no guru present, it is quite understandable that there may be a tendency for an over-reliance on "the group" to retain unity. Once there is an awareness of the potential pitfalls in this structure it might not be a problem. However as measure is the glue binding the group together, it seems a serious omission not to describe what the principles are. Wikisatva 20:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC).

The School's concept of measure is explained in some detail on the SES website. As a student of the School for some years I have found the idea of measure as explained generally helpful in life, and I am very grateful for that. There does seem to be a certain spikiness in some of the 'constructive criticism' on this page. Of course everyone is entitled to express their views, but my own experience attending the School really doesn't match the the generally critical tone of some postings. It's perhaps worth pointing out that being in the School is entirely voluntary, which by definition means anyone is free to leave if he or she wishes. Certainly I would leave if I felt 'bullied' or 'forced to conform', or thought I was being asked to surrender my own reason. But I never have. General.custer1

I have sought to restore some semblance of balance and neutrality to this entry, which in my view was previously unbalanced and distorted.Miles Dogood 19:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the above users edit. The criticsms have their own section, and are not laced through the main body of the article which would warrant it to be unbalanced. I feel that User:Miles Dogood's edits seek to distance the school from its Hindi roots, which I feel are integral to it's teachings. I have also tided the intro. Gareth E Kegg 14:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the entry, which contains many errors, in the interests of factual, balanced and accurate information. Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for those hostile to the SES to pursue their campaign. Miles Dogood 17:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an edit war over this, but I do not see how your edits make the article any more balanced. You remove a lot of critcism, and your distancing of the school from its Hindi roots I again find baffling. I was a student of the school for three years, and the description of the self and the absolute is accurate. The story of the schools origins you also seek to sanitize. You say "Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for those hostile to the SES to pursue their campaign", yet none of those placing those edits have declared themselves to be hostile to the SES, and as the article stood it did not represent the vanguard of a "campaign" rather than an article describing the school as it is. In the best traditions of the school, please "pause" before you edit. Gareth E Kegg 18:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I don’t want an edit war either, but there really are quite a few errors of fact in your contributions – including your latest reversions. The entry is therefore misleading. Here are some examples:

- the School was effectively started by Leon MacLaren, with the support of his father, Andrew MacLaren, in 1937

- the core of the School's philosophy is Advaita Vedanta, particularly as taught by Shri Shantananda Saraswati. This is an ancient spiritual and philosophical tradition and not a religion. It has no identifiable date of origin. Hinduism draws extensively on the same source, but is classified as a religion. The concept of Advaita - unity underlying apparent multiplicity - can be found in other great religions and philosophies of both East and West. The introductory philosophy courses offered by the School are broad and general, although the principles of Advaita Vedanta are inherent in them

- Sanskrit is generally acknowledged as the oldest of the Indo-European languages, and a major influence on the others, including English. The Hindi language is a close derivation, but is not identical.

The other point with previous entries you have reinstated is balance. Much of the criticism contained in the links previously there relates to events 20-30 years ago. This is not made clear. Even then, a great deal of the material contained in these links was far from impartial. Such an assembly, taken together, cannot reasonably be described as neutral and certainly doesn’t represent the School "as it is".

The entry you deleted is factually correct and the links include more current (including critical) opinion from completely external sources. Miles Dogood 11:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I am still deeply unhappy with the direction that you have taken this page. As I lack the resources to redress the balance, the page must stand as an unblemished testament to the school, rather than a "warts and all" encyclopedic article. Gareth E Kegg 10:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I simply don't agree with that. In my opinion the article accurately describes the main facts about the School today and does contain some up to date, third party and critical links. Miles Dogood 15:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been rereading the NPOV guidelines to see if they can shed any light on this dispute. Firstly I think the claims that there are people posting edits because they are hostile to the school or have a campaign going are not in the spirit of assuming that the editors are acting in good faith. Secondly, I'm wondering should this page exist at all as a) all views on and within the SES are very much a tiny minority interest and is it worthy of an entry? and b) there are so few authoritative sources to be cited - the Secret Cult book, the Inform piece, the article from the philosopher's magazine and the School website. I don't include the why are they dead forum because while it contains a useful snapshot of the school during MacLaren's time, it doesn't seem to me to meet wikipedia standards as a source. While Inform surely could be regarded as having reasonable credentials, the magazine piece is one person's point of view and the book, in fairness, is somewhat out of date. There is no great body of material produced by the School on their system of belief and practice (including the website which btw does not give much information on measure and is short on specifics on what is taught) in order to be able to establish any sort of a rounded view of their teachings. In my view this entry is currently not much different than the School's own website. Should this page exist at all and what would y'all think of deleting it? Wikisatva 00:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Miles, I don't know how you can say that criticism relates to events 20/30 years ago when you were editing the page at a time when there were references to the illegal use of corporal punishment in the Dutch SES children's school in 2000? This article is now total fudge - rather like the publicity material put out by the School. Let it stand as a testament (as anyone can see by going through back-edits) to the type of control adherents like to exert on how they present the teaching - still all unpublished. Publish the Conversations and other material used in study groups and let there be a proper discussion and airing of its roots and substance. Advocates can edit out a referenced quote from MacLaren saying that women should submit and obey their husbands and the School all you like, but it doesn't change the truth that that is what he said or that that was part of what his analysis of what "natural law" consists of. Funny, how the truth and access to it, seems to be so frightening to people who apparently are interested in just that. Oh well! Wikisatva 21:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll second the above comment. We were working toward a balanced page before it was been pretty well supressed by User:Miles Dogood. Is he any relation is he to User:Matthew Peters 21? Gareth E Kegg 21:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Added NPOV tags as there are no references to source material for the claims. Wikisatva

Your (Wikisatva) 1st NPOV tag seems to relate to claims on other studies: How can this be resolved to your satisfaction? One option could be a link to the SES website on what these studies are, of which [3] is one example. Another option could be a cross-reference to the Wikipedia listing of 7 published volumes of "The Letters of Marsilio Ficino" on Ficino, which is evidence of renaissance studies. A 3rd option could be to take references from "The Power Within" biography of Leon MacLaren which seems to mention several such studies. --wikirpg (talk) 17:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The 2nd NPOV tag could relate to any of: founding of SES and move to philosophy; approach taken for philosophy and sources on which it is taken; introductory course and later studies; connection with India, advaita philosophy and what is said about it. Most of this can be dealt with by reference to one or more published sources such as "The Power Within". However, the Wiki rules for applying a NOP tag state that you should "clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why" on the discussion page.--wikirpg (talk) 20:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

References added to help resolve the first of Wikisatva's NPOV tags; tag has been removed pending further details if there are residual concerns. The 2nd NPOV tag has also been removed for now for the same reason; a cross reference on advaita vedanta was added, but it is not clear if this helps. Also removed the statement about chairman of ERT; it does not seem to add information about SES, and could be construed as innuendo regarding a living person. wikirpg (talk) 20:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Clara Salaman sentence removed; there was no link made to SES or St James in the referenced article. I looked for one elsewhere but found nothing. Last paragraph of criticisms edited to make it fit better with the others. Corrected references as well. --wikirpg (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Clara Salaman states, in her Guardian article of 25th July 2009, "For legal reasons I am not allowed to go into any detail about the organisation that our parents were members of." However, there are several features which taken together limit the possibilities to the School of Economic Science and its St. James's Schools. Firstly, the rigid, Western Fundamentalist kind of religion based on Hinduism; the "leader" who ruled with fear; the upper middle class membership; the primary school opened by "the organisation" in London in 1975; the compulsory study of Sanskrit at a private primary school in London and the author's brother's involvement, four years ago, in setting up a website for ex-pupils, which resulted in an independent inquiry into allegations of abuse and mistreatment. Her father's life's work is said to be translating the works of Marsilio Ficino: seven volumes of his letters are credited to the Language Department of the School of Economic Science on both Amazon and WikiPedia. Finally, Clem Salaman is listed as a governor of St James's Independent Schools and Clement Salaman as a trustee of the Independent Educational Association Ltd on the inquiry's web page http://www.stjamesinquiry.org/WHOSWHO_page/whoswho_page.html Grounds for restoring the matter deleted by wikirpg? NRPanikker (talk) 01:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay Wikirpg, about removing NPOV tags for now. I used them clumsily. Nevertheless, are there any sources for what the teachings are that come from outside the School? The article about the School's teachings depends for its sources on one book written by MacLaren's former personal assistant, Dorine Tolley. I guess what I am trying to get across is that the only source for what the School teaches on their courses, is the School itself. There are no references in the article to source material produced by the School about what is taught on the philosophy and economic courses. In depth studies on Marsilio Ficino are hardly studied on the early philosophy courses? As such, the article relies heavily on what the School says it teaches, rather than objective sources based on primary texts. Its not a neutral point of view of the Teachings of the School unless it can be referenced to neutral sources and primary texts. Wikisatva

Its not innuendo about Mr Debenham. It is true that he was Head of St. James and that the Inquiry investigated abuses which occured in St James during that time. It is not unusual to refer to the past CV of a Chair of an organisation. He is also on the record as a supporter of corporal punishment for boys. How also do we mention the various legally seperate organisations which have SES members only on their boards and governing bodies? These are issues that need to be resolved in order to have a representative article. (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.162.11 (talk) 11:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Notes

Eventually, I'll remove the whole section. There are OTRS issues. Unless stronger sourcing can be found and the article can be balances, this section will go. Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 17:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. Has the School complained to Wikipedia? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 17:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There are issues, I only ask they everything negative have strong sourcing please. NonvocalScream (talk) 03:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Challenge sources

I challenge this inclusion for reliable sources and ask for verifiable sources. Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary these sources are primary witness testimonies, which WP policy states are of the highest value. I have to challenge your deletion of evidence. Please note that these primary sources are clearly marked as 'Criticisms', which is a fair and accurate place for them, under WP guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberthall7 (talk • contribs) 07:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Its really unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This is original research. NonvocalScream (talk) 10:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Unedited raw material of this kind does not qualify as a reliable source for our purposes. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Toddst1 (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that in general internet forums are a poor source, there are particular reasons for caution in this instance. For one thing, the deleted text clearly referred to the points being made within the context of the forum; in other words, it did not make allegations and cite the forum as evidence that they were true - it cited the forum as evidence of its own existence, and referred to the fact that supportive as well as critical views were expressed there. The policy on reliable sources makes clear that forum postings are self-published and therefore unsuitable sources, but it does allow for such sources to be used as sources about themselves.

It's important to note that the policy excludes such use if the material is contentious and if it includes claims about third parties, and both are true in this case - the forum is clearly contentious, and accusations are made against named individuals, who (irrespective of whether the accusations are true or not) are unable to defend themselves. This (especially the latter) ought to count strongly against the use of the forum material.

On the other hand, the 2005 enquiry report [4] referred to in the text clearly identifies the forum, and the views expressed in it, as one of the major reasons for its being set up. This not only makes the forum notable (it would be misleading to refer to the enquiry without referring to it) but also to some extent validates its existence and the criticisms included (which it partly upheld, though concluding that some of the criticisms were exaggerated).

I suggest, therefore, that the reference to the forum needs to remain, at least to indicate its existence and the fact that a variety of views (although mostly critical) are expressed on it. To mention it, and give a balanced description of it, is scarcely original research and a reasonable description will allow readers to make their own judgement of its reliablility. Can we come up with a wording that manages to do this? --Rbreen (talk) 22:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Its really unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This is original research. NonvocalScream (talk)

But couldn't that be equally said about the whole text of the article? The description of the teachings and history of the School are just repeating the School's own publicity. Where are the publications, references, facts etc supporting the claims made about the School in the article itself? There are no references supporting the claims made about the teachings and so this is also speculation and original research.Wikisatva (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

references

As the only references in the article are to books has anyone had a chance to try and locate them in order to verify content/coverage of this subject? Jasynnash2 (talk) 13:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

For sure. I have the Hounam/Hogg book, and that's what it says.KD Tries Again (talk) 03:59, 2 March 2009 (UTC)KD Tries Again

St.james school

I think that there should be a direct wiki link to a page regarding St. James school. This school was setup as an extension to the School of Economic Science. It was subject to much of the criticisim levelled at the school, due to its interesting curriculum (mandatory teaching of Sanskrit upto O-level, while negelcting Geography).

Also, there was recently a public inquest into the School, proposed by the new headmaster, by a leading barrister at Veale Wasbrough Lawyers.

Also, St. James was interesting as it was onefo the last schools to continue to cane pupils up until the practice was band by the European Courts.

Youngwarthog (talk) 15:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC) Youngwarthog

I agree, and it should include that both Clara Salaman and Emily Watson are alumni of the school.Fartinaction (talk) 17:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Split off the School of Practical Philosophy

Proof was found by Christieag that the School of Practical Philosophy is its own accredited not-for-profit corporation. I have, since, gone ahead and added a number of references, including news articles and books that discuss the information in the section. I feel that it would be good to reduce the section to a Summary style paragraph with a "Main article" template link and split off the rest as its own article. I know that the AfD back in April decided that it be merged here, but the references then were rather non-existent. That has changed now and I feel that it can stand alone as its own article. Thus, I propose that it be split off. Silverseren^C 21:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the School of Practical Philosophy should be a separate article. The organizations are independent and there are sufficient references to support it having an article. Christieag (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I support the move, especially now that the additional references and additional material have been added in respct to the School of Practical Philosophy. wikirpg (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Since no one has contested with the proposed move change in almost two weeks, i'm going to be bold and go ahead and split off the article. Silverseren^C 18:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. I also went ahead and added in the main article template link and shortened the info in this article. It's not really summary style (considering it's identical to the actual article), so if someone would like to make some changes to it in this article, I would appreciate it. Silverseren^C 18:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Changes to structure

To make the article more readable, a new section "Organisation" has been added. Material for this has been mainly extracted from the organisation's 2011 submission to the UK Charity Commission which is available online. Using this it is possible to clarify which entities are part of SES, and which are more loosely associated or affiliated.

Properties have also been cross-related to the submission and have been included in this section as they are more to do with organisation than history. Although the submission was created by the organisation, it is likely to be fairly accurate as there are obligations under which any charity has to operate.

For similar reasons, "Associated bodies and activities" was split into 2 sections "Associated Bodies" and Activities". It is proposed to remove the separate section on "School of Practical Philosophy" as this is now covered by its own page.wikirpg (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Your addition was problematic firstly because you didn't provide any referencing. But even if you did, what an organization says about itself is not considered especially useful at Wikipedia, regardless of statutory obligations etc. And even if one were to find an outside source stating all these facts, they're not especially relevant. What is clear is that you chose to emphasise the rather irrelevant workings of the buraucracy, clouding out the content about the real estate portfolio underneath it. That looks like a deliberate snowjob for one compelling reason: you also vandalized the sourced content about Necker Island, by simply ripping it out. You have a right to privacy and I am not going to ask you about your connections to SES, but I am going to hereby inform you that conflict of interest is taken extremely seriously at Wikipedia, per WP:COI. Please familiarize yourself with the rules. -Roberthall7 (talk) 23:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The reference was included, (document at Charity Commission), but perhaps in not the best way. The property was moved to "Organisation" as all the facts (other than Necker Island) appear to be relevent to the organisation as it stands today according to the stated reference. If it were relevant to the section on history, then any other property acquistions and disposals over the years should also be included. Some property was deleted as the reference studied (Charity Commission submission) stated the extent of the organisation and relationship to other organisations; this excludes St James School and New York property. The Necker Island was deleted although amongst all the other changes being made the specific reason had been omitted; in the context of the whole article this seems to be spurious and the reference used may not be the most reliable as per WP:IRS. If its inclusion is as evidence of SES being money or property hungry, then perhaps this view needs to be made more explicit with appropriate reliable references. The other information were included as a description of the organisation as it stands. It was all obtained from the Charity Commission submission and hence is in the public domain; as far as I understand Wikipedia rules, at least some weight can be given to such information. The aim has been NPOV at all times.wikirpg (talk) 09:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)