Talk:Scientific method

The

(Please don't archive this section: it is a resurrecting issue, and a permanent pointer to discussion is useful)

Shouldn't this article begin with a The? Has this debate already been had? Isn't it, "The Scientific method is a body of techniques..." Mathiastck 06:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, right at the top of Archive 11, there is debate on the definite article The. --Ancheta Wis 08:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok well I vote to include "The" next time :) Mathiastck 18:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is/are "Scientific Method(s)/Process(es)", and then there is "The Scientific Method" - a more general, abstract model: Observation, Hypothesis, Experiment (repeat): this is "The Scientific Method"...it is more of a philosophical model than a process, as the body to which "Scientific Method" can/does refer(s). Am I right in thinking lack of "the" grammatically puts this method in way similar to the term "kung-fu" which is used without "the". For example, one does not say, "he used the kung fu on me!" I think journal citations showing use of "scientific method" minus the definite article "the" will be shown to be typos. One might see if there is a correlation in typo articles and authors of native asian (especially Japanese) toungue. It is known that the definte article is not used similarly in these asian languages as it is in english, and that new or late-comers to English may publish with this typo. Living and working in Berkeley, I have much experience with non-native English speakers of all types and feel the lack of definite article may in fact stem from native asian speaking individuals both authors and editors...unless of course the spirit of english wishes to refer to the scientific method as we do the kung fu. That does sound cool. 76.102.47.125 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Observation, Hypothesis and Experiment are the three primary and fundamental concepts in all methods of science. Experiment: Search the internet for "observation hypothesis experiment". Observation: the majority of results are for "the Scientific Method". Hypothesis: I have just used the scientific method. 71.156.103.213 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

At the outset of the discussion about this issue, User:Wjbeaty pointed out some of the published current discussion in the field per WP:VER and WP:RS. He said: "Many scientists object to ... the very concept The Scientific Method, and they fight to get it removed from grade-school textbooks. Examples:

• D. Simanek, physicist
• J. Denker, physicist
• P. Bridgman, physicist
• R. Feynman, physicist
• W. McComas
• H. Baur, chemist

Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques or body of techniques. When diagrammed it might look something like a sunflower with an identifiable core with a bunch of petals representing various fields of science. Add or remove a few petals, and it still looks like a sunflower. Kenosis 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[Is this the same P. Bridgman who suggested we might see revolutions such as Einstein's relativity earlier if we changed our scientific method: if we payed closer attention to the operations used in measuring (or observing) a phenomenon: if we add operational to the objective and natural requirements of a definition? Bridgman is referring, in the article above, to philosophies of science (IMO), not methodology - on which he has written books and many papers. Geologist (talk) 01:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)]

My modest opinion: I disagree on "The". A laboratory experiment, a computer simulation, a theoretical model: all may be scientific but are far from using a unique and univocal method. One thing is to single out a body of criteria in order to define if a method of inquiry is scientific, and another is to say that there is only one such method. Also (but I might be wrong), I think there is an implicit usage in Wikipedia so as to use "The..." in reference to a book or a specific theory (e.g. "interpretation of dreams" and "The Interpretation of Dreams"). -- Typewritten 08:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques"

If this article is about a collection of methods, then the title should be Scientific methods. indil (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

A redirect already exists. I personally oppose a page move. This article is referenced by thousands of other articles already, under its current title, and is well-known under its current name. A google search shows that the current title is referenced over 4 times more frequently than the plural. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is absurd. The rhythm method isn't specific either: some people use calendars, some people count days, others guess. We still follow correct English grammar. I am WP:BRDing. MilesAgain (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have done the R so D rather more than you did. This is not an issue of grammar as either is OK from that respect. It is a fundamental question and the balance is on not have the "The" there. --Bduke (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it to "Scientific method refers to the body of techniques..."; perhaps this is a satisfactory solution? Andareed (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes; good. MilesAgain (talk) 12:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at the Richard Feynman link given above. He does not use the phrase Scientific Mathod", and far from arguing that it should be removed from grade school textbooks, he seems to be arguing strongly that it should be taught. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm confused. None of those pages seem to insinuate that the problem is the article "the". They seem to contest the idea of the scientific method itself. Then again, I'm very tired, and not at all that attentive to begin with.  Aar  ►  09:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

  The best discussion on 'the' that I have seen comes from Mark Twain. One could argue this is all a fine point for those who think in English. There are languages that get along without a 'the', after all. But there is a part of English, the subjunctive mood, which is a good basis for the hypothesis and prediction steps of scientific method, and without which I believe it is hard to explain scientific method. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

• It is an issue of grammar. In titles, the article is commonly and correctly used to refer to a body or cluster of similar things: The Elements of Style; The Working Dog; The Racing Motorcycle; The Successful Investor. "Elements of Style" could be okay because "elements" is plural, but neither "Working Dog" nor "Racing Motorcycle" are suitable titles. Likewise, "Scientific Methods" would be fine. But both "Scientific Method" and "Successful Investor" are awkward and off-putting to native English speakers.````KellyArt 11:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm a native English-speaker and it doesn't put me off. "Scientific method" in singular form sans expected article seems like a mass noun. The Tetrast (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC).

Further reading: Chomsky

While browsing the list of recommendations for further reading, I noticed that Chomsky's (1975) Reflections on Language is listed there. Without any elaboration, this implies that those readers of the article who are interested in the topic and wish to learn more about it are recommended to read Chomsky's book -- which is rather surprising, as Chomsky's linguistic research paradigm is famous for not following the scientific method. Are there any objections to removing this book from the list? --141.99.254.253 (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If the book makes a point of telling readers that the scientific method isn't followed and why, then it should stay as an opposing viewpoint. If the book simply doesn't follow the method, then it's not relevant and ought to go. SilverCity 14:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you both for this thread. The same argument might be made against Allen Newell's Unified theory of cognition (on the basis of testability). On the other hand, there is a linguistic component in hypothesis formation. Chomsky's position appears to have an ideological / political basis which needs further research to determine its place in hypothesis formation. From the standpoint of belief revision, which is an essential part of scientific method, the researcher needs the intellectual honesty to admit "I'm wrong about hypothesis A" in order to get to some other hypothesis B. Otherwise, the scientific community (for the subject of inquiry) will do this for him; it is essential that hypothesis A and its consequent be disclosed before the test of A (consequent disproven or not), to show A's notability.

That said, it may be worthwhile to annotate Chomsky / Newell's claims, indicating any holes in their theories, as part of further work by the community. Failing any citations showing holes, then "citation needed" tags are in order for their respective claims. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

According to WP:FURTHER the section is to "help interested readers learn more about the article subject" (my emphasis) Tangential material is therefore inappropriate.

I think scientific method is a large enough subject that scientific method should be an overview article and there should be other articles covering the details. For instance, if there is a linguistic component to hypothesis formation, why not cover it in Hypothesis formation?

Likewise for the other further reading entries, if isn't notable enough to be mentioned in the article, then the book doesn't belong in further reading.

Hope that helps. pgr94 (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

In fairness to Chomsky, it is possible to counter the claim Reflections on Language lies outside scientific method: (Chomsky 1975, p. 139 -- as quoted in C. Werry Language Sciences 29 (2007) 72-73) has the form of a thought experiment in which Chomsky clearly states a consequent, namely that a neutral scientist S will discover a generative linguistics (Werry p. 73). Apparently this argument will then buttress Chomsky's idea of a generative grammar. Thus we can design an experiment to test this consequent. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

And physiological brain-based research in linguistics is ongoing to this day. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:46, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

pgr94, I have removed Chomsky and Newell from Further Reading. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

quick question

does the scientific method address the existence of god? does it deal with god, at all? i didnt think so but maybe i misunderstood. 76.21.178.151 (talk) 00:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

No it does not. The question of the existence of god is untestable in principle. The scientific method is not for questions like 'What is the meaning of this work of artr', or 'Which moral code is more moral; the Eightfold path of Buddhism, the Ten Commandments, or Kant's Categorical Imperative?' Even if two people had the same experience of witnessing a being appear before them and state that "I am god," they STILL would not be able to conduct a test of the matter, as the meaning of "I" and the meaning of "am" and the meaning of "god" and the meaning of the image appearing before them could always still be questioned further. Science is not about the meaning of things, as that is an interpretation of the facts. Science is about actual facts themselves.

The question of the existence of god is a metaphysical one, and as such is unanswerable for sure. Anyone claiming to KNOW the answer is being intellectually dishonest, as all they can honestly say is that they BELIEVE the answer. Metaphysical questions such as "what is the meaning of life?" and "do we have free will?" are metaphysical ones, not scientific. Greg Bard (talk) 01:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The question is currently tabooed. Some of our greatest scientists have been religious, and their beliefs directly affected their approach to scientific method. For example, Alhazen's humility before God led him directly to his acceptance of human error, and to his resolve to rectify error by arriving at the truth. In my opinion this was courageous of Alhazen, who even performed dissections to get to the truth. How many others would go to such lengths? --Ancheta Wis (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Calling it "tabooed" is not exactly very appropriate because it implies that it's some social convention among scientists. It's not. Is it "taboo" to place round pegs in square holes? Not really, it's is just an inappropriate use of the tools at hand. What inspires scientists to their activities, and what determines the subject matter of their experiments are two totally different matters. No one begrudges a religious scientist who, for instance, studies birds because they were inspired by doves symbolizing peace. However, their methods had better not rely on any presumptions that doves are inherently connected to the abstract concept of peace... or they are not a real scientist. Greg Bard (talk) 02:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Supernatural beings or supernatural phenomenons; specifically God, are not inherently excluded from the scientific method. But a technology capable of detecting and verifying the existence of God, directly or indirectly, has not yet been invented. Another example is that of ‘String Theory’, (I am referring to any of the numerous theories based on string particles.) Although a great deal of elegant mathematical study has been done on the behavior of strings; our most advanced method of detecting new particles, the particle accelerator, is not capable of detecting them. And as I understand it, a particle accelerator can never be powerful enough to detect them. So a new technology must be invented to detect and verify the existence of strings. Because we cannot detect strings, scientist who favor String Theory, find themselves in a similar predicament as those who would scientifically verify the existence of God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euphoreus (talk • contribs) 04:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

scientific method does not imply realism

Page 17 of the article: "Philosophy of science looks at the underpinning logic of the scientific method, at what separates science from non-science, and the ethic that is implicit in science. There are basic assumptions derived from philosophy that form the base of the scientific method - namely, that reality is objective and consistent, that humans have the capacity to perceive reality accurately, and that rational explanations exist for elements of the real world. These assumptions from methodological naturalism form the basis on which science is grounded. Logical Positivist, empiricist, falsificationist, and other theories have claimed to give a definitive account of the logic of science, but each has in turn been criticized."

I have never seen a good argument that the scientific method chooses realism over phenomenalism/empiricism. I am not saying that realism is less plausible than various shades of anti-realism. I am simply saying that this dispute is irrelevant by definition of the scientific method. This is why I was surprised with this passage. I am a physicist, so I consulted a colleague of mine, logician in the philosophy department, and he agreed that "you don’t have to be a realist (or grant the assumptions stated in this passage) to give an account of the scientific method. Realists and antirealists may agree on what the scientific method is, but disagree about the status of scientific theories and theoretical entities."

Thank you for considering my comment.Lpantelidis (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is why the article does not espouse a viewpoint which favors realism. It is immaterial to the successes of the scientific community. On the other hand, it serves no useful purpose to disavow realism, idealism, formalism, etc. Every researcher has his/her own motivation. But the result (or failure) of each research effort is what counts in the body of collective publications. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 21:31, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Data driven discovery

I think this article needs more information the emerging process of Data driven discovery. I may do this some time, but thought I would note it here first, in case it inspires other editors. --Oceans and oceans (talk) 02:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I've just created the stub article Data driven science perhaps it can be expanded and/or merged into this article ... --Oceans and oceans (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

'Truth' and the Scientific Method

Under the heading, ‘Truth and belief’, this statement is made: “In the same way that Alhazen sought truth during his pioneering studies in optics 1000 years ago, arriving at the truth is the goal of a scientific inquiry.”

Below this statement is made: “Any scientific theory is closely tied to empirical findings, and always remains subject to falsification if new experimental observation incompatible with it is found. That is, no theory can ever be seriously considered certain as new evidence falsifying it can be discovered. Most scientific theories don't result in large changes in human understanding.”

‘Truth’ and ‘certainty’ are often used as synonyms. If, “no theory can ever be seriously considered certain”, then, “arriving at the truth”, is inherently impossible, and therefore, is an impossible goal. Wouldn’t it be more accurate and less misleading to state that, the goal of the scientific method is to obtain a theory which conforms to verifiable observation in controlled experiments. Not as elegant, but more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euphoreus (talk • contribs) 04:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The article clearly states that truth is not synonymous with certainty. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 04:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

You might arrive at the truth, but you cannot be certain that you are there. Myrvin (talk) 09:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. And there you recognize the distinction. Inserted note: Sorry, I got mixed up between Myrvin and thread-starter Euphoreus. End of note. 'True' and 'certain' in the sense of '(fully) proven' are not synonymous and should not be used as synonyms. There's a practical difference, not to mention also that 'p' and 'it is proven that p' are formally distinct and have different logical properties. Your word "conforms" might as well be "corresponds," and a claim's or proposition's correspondence to the real is a long-standing (since Aristotle at least) definition of truth. That's the key point - you've simply re-worded the idea of truth, so why not just say "truth." Also, you say 'observation' instead of 'the real' but if you substitute '(directly or indirectly) observABLE' then it falls nearly enough under a definition of the real both as independent of particular people's opinions and as potentially discoverable by any intelligence that pushes investigation far enough - i.e., the real as "objective". The Tetrast (talk) 18:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC). Copyedit The Tetrast (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC). Inserted note on my mixup between commenters. The Tetrast (talk) 20:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)