Talk:Scylla

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Scylla of Syro-Canaanite origin[edit]

Scylla is to be compared with "shlyt of the seven heads", a sea monster who contends with the rain-god Ba'al in the Ugaritic Ba'al Myth. Ugarit, today Ras Shamra on the Syrian Meditteranean coast, was an ancient city that reached its zenith in the 15th-13th centuries BCE, from which period have about 2000 clay tablets written in alphabetic cuneiform script. This is not the only example of Syro-CAnaanite influence on ancient Greek culture. The Venus-Adonis myth is also of Syro-Canaanite origin. "Adonis" is the Graecized form of "'adon", Hebrew and Canaanite for "lord". The word "ba'al" (Hebrew, Canaanite and Ugaritic) has the same meaning, and indeed, in the Ugaritc Myth of Ba'al, the god dies and goes down to the god of death, Mot, in She'ol (the Underworld, Hades) but is resurrected and mates with 'Anath, the goddess of fertility. These and other mythological motifs would probably have reached Greece through Phoenician mediation, as did the alphabet.Yonsaf (talk) 09:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Unsigned comoments about a rock[edit]

Didn't the myth surrounding Scylla come from the fact that mariners would often hit the rocky cliff that was opposite the whirlpool that spawned the myth of Charybdis?

Hm. Don't know anything about that, but there's a note at the end of the page I got most of the information from that says "But some have said that at the time when Aeneas came with his fleet after the sack of Troy, Scylla had already been changed into the dangerous rock, which still stands to this day."

I'll reword that to remove copyright concerns and add it to the article.

I think the rock was identified as Scylla's after the legend - the story of Scylla originates in Greece at a time when there is little evidence that many people knew of the existance of the Straits of Messina. My best guess is that the rock became associated when later Greeks started exploring the area and mistakenly associated their legends with this previously unexplored land when it is more likely the legends would have originated in their own land.

Image[edit]

Someone had placed a note in the image code asking if the British Museum identifies the figure with Scylla... the dog heads at the waist are a dead giveaway. DreamGuy 04:57, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Merge with Charybdis[edit]

I'm fairly new to the Wikipedia, so I don't fully know the process or anything, but I suggest merging this article with Charybdis. It seems impossible to me to speak of one without mentioning the other. --Snaxe920 03:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I think they are separate entities with separate origins. The tough one for me is the article Scylla and Charybdis, which is redundant with the individual articles. Xargque (talk) 20:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Scylla and Scolotians[edit]

It is possible that Scylla was the "monster-mutation", through Greek mythology, of Scolotians or Scoloti (a Schythian people lived at European-Thracian coast of Black Sea).

Charybdis was the mutation of Chalybians or Chalybes (a people lived at coast of northern Asia Minor, compare Halybe of Homer)).

Both were the terror of sailors who have been travelled across Bosporus, in during of 2nd/1st millennium B.C.

--IonnKorr 17:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Redundant?...[edit]

The paragraph describing the Bulfinch version of the myth seems to recapitulate the information presented in the one preceding it; I have the same complaint regarding the paragraph which begins "Three of Scylla's heads..." (which seems not only redundant but poorly written to boot -- sorry!). Are those two paragraphs necessary? Could any extra information in them be incorporated into the first paragraph which relates the myth?

A Rock and a Hard Place[edit]

Scylla and Charybdis are usually attested as being the origin of the phrase between the devil and the deep blue sea, and not of between a rock and a hard place; the latter expression is supposedly of American provenance, although the synonymia rather suggests the style of the King James Bible. Nuttyskin 03:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

One wonders if perhaps the latter expression came about as a way to avoid mentioning the devil. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.186.9.5 (talk) 05:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

With all due respect, the way you know that an alleged word origin is credible is to see if it cites a written example. I found two references (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/62900.html and "Word and Phrase Origins", Robert Hendrickson, 1997) that suggest that this phrase dates back to the 1920s and refers to being bankrupt. It was originally used in describing a crash in the American Southwest. I have also found references to Scylla and Charybdis but none of them mention when it's use in this way first appeared. Surely, if "between a rock and a hard place" referred to an ancient myth it would have appeared in print MUCH earlier than 1922, yes? I feel that I have pretty good evidence that this refers to something other than this myth and that there is no evidence that it refers to the myth so I'm going to pull the statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davemenc (talkcontribs) 17:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes: a generic picture of the human condition with no intended reference to Scylla. --Wetman 15:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nuttyskin; the expression "rock and a hard place" is unrelated to Scylla and Charybdis. (Huey45 (talk) 11:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC))

Trivia[edit]

Don't know if it's worth mentioning, but there was a sculpture called Scylla and Charybdis that one could purchase within the game The Sims.

Scylla parentage. The wiki page on Echidna_(mythology) says that "According to Herodotus (III.108), Hercules had three children by her: 1. Agathyrsus 2. Gelonus 3. Scytha/Scylla" but this does not seem to be mentioned in the text of the Scylla article. Is it worth adding to the bit on Scylla's parentage?58.165.234.110 07:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Scylla and Charybdis are the names of two reductio arguments offered by Simon Blackburn against response-dependence theories (particularly of secondary qualities and value) in his "Circles, Finks, Smells, and Biconditionals", in Philosophical Perspectives, Vol. 7, Language and Logic (1993), pp. 259-279. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.230.44.94 (talk) 17:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism?[edit]

"In Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus is given advice by Circe to sail closer to Scylla, for Charybdis could drown his whole ship. Odysseus then successfully navigates his ship past Scylla and Charybdis, but Scylla manages to catch six of his men, devouring them alive."

...Wha...? 69.245.103.98 11:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

...It's gone now...but why was that there? :S 69.245.103.98 11:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

No,this is not vandalism.I thought vandalism was when you mark on private property. Isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.114.230 (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Citing sources.[edit]

It says in the article when describing Scylla's parents that her parents are either Phorcys as the father, and Hecate, Crataeis, Ceto, or Lamia as possibly the mother. But it says that other sources state that Triton is the father.

What other sources? Possibly a more accurate one? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.234.100.16 (talk) 16:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Eustathius, Scholiast on Homer's Odyssey gives all these alternative parentages, but does not state his own sources (which are now all lost except for Homer, who says her mother was Crataeis). Ps-Apollodorus' in his Bibliotheque says Scyllas was a daughter of Phorcys and Ceto, which was perhaps sourced from Hesiod's lost Catalogues. --Theranos 08:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Who was the father of the Scylla?[edit]

In this article, it says that Phorcys was the Scylla's father and Heracles/Hercules killed her, however in the article about Echidna, it says that the Scylla's father is Hercules. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huey45 (talkcontribs) 03:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Ghost in the land of the dead?[edit]

"In Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus is given advice by a ghost from the land of the dead to sail closer to Scylla, for Charybdis could drown his whole ship." Wasn't it Circes who advised him to go closer to Scylla? Ninjanity 02:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Eight what legs?[edit]

Canine? Where on earth did you get canine? Perhaps I'm somehow misunderstanding it (I'm not), but the text in "The Odyssey" describes her legs as such: "Her legs-and there are twelve-are like great tentacles, unjointed. . ." So yeah, I'm seeing a gaping problem here. 74.140.218.179 (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


A doubtful insertion[edit]

The following was inserted by User:Rogermcnally, 04:49, 1 June 2008, with the edit summary "added information using stuart gilberts study of Ulysses as a souce":

"Scylla is one of the few place names used in the Odyssey which have persisted unchanged till the present day. At the entry to the Straits of Messiana, the city of Scylla, perched on a cliff 'that beetles o're his base into the sea' still dominated the treacherous strip of water separating Sicily from the mainland The name 'Scylla' is derived from a Semitic word skoula and the full title of the promontory was Skoula Kart's, the sheer rock."

Stuart Gilbert is a commentator on James Joyce's Ulysses. The quote "that beetles o're his base into the sea" is Shakespeare,'s Hamlet, which cued my doubts. The user has made two edits, this one and a similar at Scylla and Charybdis. If there is any wholesome material in this stew, please fish it out and return it to the article, with a source. Thank you. --Wetman (talk) 07:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Emmanuel Irankunda[edit]

Emmanuel Irankunda is a child that came form Tanzania. He came to United States when he was 13. He didn't have any friends but when he start school at Edgar Martin Middle School. He meets lots of friends. He start in 8th grade

Vandalism[edit]

I just deleted some random text, under beastly. All it said was that scylla was a beast. Also, look above my post.

Misplaced?[edit]

"Alexander Pope's mock-heroic "Rape of the Lock" as part of an extended representation of gallant chatter round a card table in the guise of a heroic battle:

Ah cease, rash youth! desist ere 'tis too late,

Fear the just gods, and think of Scylla's fate!

Chang'd to a bird, and sent to flit in air,

She dearly pays for Nisus' injur'd hair! [10]"


In this section of the article, it appears that this is refferencing Scylla (Princess), whom Minos convinced to betray her father and then punished her for that betrayal, rather than the monster Scylla. Shouldn't this be moved to that (sub)article rather than here?

Misplaced?[edit]

"Alexander Pope's mock-heroic "Rape of the Lock" as part of an extended representation of gallant chatter round a card table in the guise of a heroic battle:

Ah cease, rash youth! desist ere 'tis too late,

Fear the just gods, and think of Scylla's fate!

Chang'd to a bird, and sent to flit in air,

She dearly pays for Nisus' injur'd hair! [10]"


In this section of the article, it appears that this is refferencing Scylla (Princess), whom Minos convinced to betray her father and then punished her for that betrayal, rather than the monster Scylla. Shouldn't this be moved to that (sub)article rather than here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathlynx (talkcontribs) 05:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Number of heads[edit]

The article states she had a number of heads. This needs a source; plus, *all* Scylla's images I've seen shows her having just one female head, see http://www.lessing-photo.com/search.asp?a=1&kc=2020202053F6&kw=ODYSSEE%3ASCYLLA&p=1&ipp.

File:Caught between a rock and a hard place.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Reorganisation[edit]

The article was becoming unsystematic, with material just parked anywhere. I have tried to bring some organisation into the sections and have added material concerning artistic treatment of the Glaucus and Scylla story. There was also repetition of material between the myth and the literature section and the account given of the Scylla episode in Ovid's Metamorphoses did not faithfully reflect the poem's content. That has therefore been pared down. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 23:15, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Severin[edit]

I deleted the reference to Severin's The Ulysses Voyage. His findings are not scientifically sound and certainly cannot be acknowledged as "challenging" the traditional view. --Heunir (talk) 11:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)