Talk:Seán Mac Diarmada

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Untitled[edit]

The stamp says he was born in 1883, the article says 1884. Is 1883 correct? I would think the Irish government would probably know. RickK 06:56, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that myself and was going to go looking into my sources. As I recall, when I wrote the article I came across two years and I guess I decided 1884 was the better one. I can't recall why. I'll try to get to the bottom of it soon though. -R. fiend 07:13, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seán Mac Diarmada Naming[edit]

I would've thought "Sean MacDiarmada" would be a far better known name, because that's what he signed the Declaration of Indepedence as. EamonnPKeane 17:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought likewise, especially in light of the many GAA clubs and grounds named MacDiarmada.El Gringo 00:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just read this morning's Leitrim Observer and there was a front page article there about 'Seán Mac Diarmada'. That is the name they are still calling him by in Leitrim. I think it definitely should be changed here.

On 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him, and the other leaders. Each time they referred to Seán Mac Diarmada, and not the version here. The interview in question was in English and was between Eunan O Halpin of TCD [1] and Éamon Phoenix of Stranmillis University [2]. You can hear it here: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thisweek/ El Gringo 16:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record it was Seán Mac Diarmada and not the name on this article who signed the Proclamation. In other words not only is he known as Seán Mac Diarmada today but he signed his name as such in 1916: http://www.irelandposters.com/dublin/1916_proclamation.html and http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm El Gringo 16:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By standard wikipedia naming conventions, he should appear under the name by which he is most commonly referred. Googling both names seems to give comparable and inconclusive results, but looking at the name under which he is listed in the indices of books on the subject/period give a telling response. Looking at 16 books from a variety of different authors, I find 11 have him listed under "Sean MacDermott", 4 as "Seán Mac Diarmada", and one as "John McDermott". Even Kathleen Clarke, a close personal friend, lists him as "Sean MacDermott" in her memoirs. As long as the redirects work, I see nothign wrong with the article remaining here. -R. fiend 19:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia naming conventions for Irish-related articles: 'Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, and has gained favour in English usage, use the official Irish name.' and 'If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among Irish and English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we refer to Máirtín Ó Cadhain, not Martin Kyne; Tomás Ó Fiaich, not Tom Fee, etc.' That is Wikipedia's take on it. In Ireland, as shown above, Mac Diarmada is commonly referred to in English by his Irish name, and it is in that name that he signed the Proclamation that made him famous. On both counts, then, the Wikipedia Manual of Style on Irish naming conventions supports this article being under Seán Mac Diarmada. El Gringo 01:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree he is most commonly known as Seán Mac Diarmada, infact the railway station named after him in Sligo is called Mac Diarmada Station Vintagekits 20:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seán Mac Diarmada[edit]

I think Sean MacDermott page should be renamed as "Seán Mac Diarmada", You may not agree so I thought I wouldnt highlight it here first to initiate a discussion or possibly put it to a vote. regards Vintagekits 11:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Unfortunately, this page was not on my Watchlist when the move was made last year. I believe the move was a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give his name as “Seán MacDermott”, not “Seán Mac Diarmada”:

  • Max Caulfield, The Easter Rebellion, Dublin 1916
  • Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: The Easter Rising
  • Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising
  • C Desmond Greaves The Life and Times of James Connolly
  • Robert Kee, Ireland: A History
  • Charles Townshend, Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion'
  • Seán Mc Mahon, Rebel Ireland
  • Annie Ryan, Witnesses: Inside the Easter Rising
  • Kathleen Clarke, Revolutionary Woman
  • Desmond Fitzgerald, Desmond’s Rising

The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with this man. Kathleen Clarke was a close friend of MacDermott. Contast this with “on 'This Week' on RTÉ radio 1 today at 1pm two historians were talking about him” above. The only time, apparently, that he used the name “Mac Diarmada” was when he signed the Proclamation. Strangely, Patrick Pearse, who also signed his name in Irish, has never been referred to in English as “Pádraig Mac Piarais,” although he was referred to for many years as “Pádraig Pearse.” R. fiend made these very points above, but his views were not taken into consideration when moving the article.
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to move this back to the original name. Scolaire 14:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wold disagree with a move on the basis that this person is most commonly known as Seán Mac Diarmada, also as an example Pearse does not have the streets and places name Mac Piarais after him unlike Sean who has the railway station is Sligo called Mac Diarmada Station and Leitrim GAA stadium in Carrick on Shannon named Mac Diarmada Park.--Vintagekits 18:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But who is Seán MacDermott Street in Dublin named after? Scolaire 23:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah come on Pete, we can be listening to was Dubs say now can we? ;) --Vintagekits 18:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And Northsiders at that! I take your point :) -- Scolaire 06:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to support the move to the original title, though as long as redirects work I don't think the issue is a major one. I am curious as to what evidence there is that he "is most commonly known as Seán Mac Diarmada", as Vintagekits states. I tend to agree with the point made by Scolaire (which is hardly surprising as it's the same point I made before). I can add a few other authors who list him as MacDermott in their indices:

  • Ruth Dudley Edwards Patrick Pearse: The Trimuph of Failure
  • The Earl of Longford and Thomas P. O'Neill Eamon De Valera
  • Marie O'Neill Grace Gifford Plunkett and Irish Freedom
  • Brian Inglis Roger Casement
  • Bulmer Hobson (ed. F. X. Martin) Irish Volunteers1913-1915 (he actually has him as "McDermott")
  • Peter de Rosa Rebels (a fictionalized account, but still relevent)
  • Thomas M. Coffey Agony at Easter
  • F.S.L. Lyons Ireland Since the Famine
  • Mick O'Farrell A Walk Through Rebel Dublin 1916 (no index, but he's MacDermott in the text)
  • Michael Tierney Eoin MacNeill

Thr book Last Words by Piaras F. Mac Lochlainn does list him as Sean MacDiarmada, but, curiously it quotes a dispatch written by the man himself: "Dear Mr. Callender, Please deliver the enclosed to Major John MacBride at once. Most urgent. Yours faithfully, Sean MacDermott". So he used that name himself. I'm curious to see evidence that supports MacDiarmada as the more common use. -R. fiend 23:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was basing the "its the most common term" asertion on the fact that my leaving cert school books refered to him a Seán Mac Diarmada, also as a Sligonian I would only/predominantly only ever heard him refered to as Mac Diarmada.--Vintagekits 18:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks like of esteems government also refer to him as Sean MacDiarmada here and here. Find a grave state Sean McDermott was Better known as Sean MacDiarmada, finally RTE broadcast a programme in 1996 called "On Behalf of The Provisional Government - Seán Mac Diarmada".--Vintagekits 18:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would go along with the most commonly used form, that being the one on the Proclamation. The most historically significant document in Republican history, in Irish History in fact. The Proclamation is more “common” than any of the books, and since the Proclamation is in most books it is therefore the most common. Regards --Domer48 18:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Domer, however, some books refer to him as his English name. Its a close call but I feel that the Proclamation is the casting vote in a way.--Vintagekits 19:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The signatories to the Proclamation knew the importance of that document, it was in fact their death warrant! It is the title he chose to use, and this article should respect that! --Domer48 19:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I dont doubt it.--Vintagekits 19:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vintagekits and Domer48, between you you have hit the nail on the head — you consider Mac Diarmada the most common name because it was in the Leaving Cert school books, and it was put in the school books because it was the name he used when signing the proclamation, not because the writers knew anything about the man. The designers of the school curriculum were the same faceless bureaucrats who named the bust in the Oireachteas. Anybody that knows anything at all about him knows that he called himself "Seán MacDermott" as witness all the books quoted above. RTÉ called their programme "Seán Mac Diarmada" because "On Behalf of The Provisional Government" is a direct quote from the Proclamation, so that was reasonable, but why is the findagrave article called "Seán MacDermott" if he was "better known as Sean MacDiarmada"? Scolaire 19:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Peadar, the leaving cert books isnt the only reason we have stated the MacDiarmada is more correct. As for findagrave you would have to ask them why they stated he was "better known as Sean MacDiarmada". I havent tried to belittle your arguments, infact quite the opposite so, a chara, I would appricate if that was reciprecated.--Vintagekits 19:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am very sorry if you took offence! I in no way meant to belittle your arguments. I do strongly believe that the school books are the reason for the "Mac Diarmada" name being the better known, them and other documents put out by civil servants in the fiercely Gaelic early days of the State. I only wanted to make that point, not to put anybody down. Scolaire 19:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
and no disrespect to the Gaelic either. I have a great love for the language! Scolaire 19:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to your later arguments, which you made while I was still typing my original reply: that he signed the Proclamation "Mac Diarmada" is certain, but it is the only documented use of that name in his lifetime. All other sources spring from that signature. Why he did it, God knows! Most likely the emotion of the moment. But Desmond FitzGerald, quoted above, spoke with him inside the GPO, and he uses the name MacDermott, and after his arrest, according to MacLochlainn, quoted above, he himself wrote a note and signed it "MacDermott." So, while of course I respect his decision to use the Irish name in the Proclamation, I don't believe he intended it as a statement that that was the name he wished to be remembered by. Scolaire 19:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I'm tempted to agree. It does seem that the use of Mac Diarmada comes from sources either relying solely on the Proclamation, or those who have a certain predilection towards the use of Gaelic (not that there's anything wrong with that, but it is a minority viewpoint). Piaras Mac Lochlainn, quoted above, seems to be a case in point, based on the name he uses (no idea if it's his given name or if he Gaelicized it himself) and the fact that the introduction and the first appendix of the book he wrote are both in Gaelic (without translation). Likewise he includes the Gaelic version of all names at some point in the book (I don't think I've elsewhere seen Ióeph Ó Pluingcéad or Séamus Ó Conghaile). And Mac Lochlainn is one of the few authors who does not list him primarily as MacDermott. I'm also tempted to question findagrave's expertise on the subject. Their Michael Mallin entry, for example, lists his dates of birth and death as "unkown" (the latter, certainly, is not hard to establish) and also says he "signed the Irish Republic Proclamation", which is certainly did not. However, I am curious about Scolaire's assertion that the Proclamation is the only time he used "Mac Diarmada". I have no idea if this is true, and wonder if there is certain proof, or simply no evidence to the contrary. -R. fiend 13:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I said that it is the only documented use of the name in his lifetime, meaning simply that I have never seen it documented anywhere else. But between us all we've done a lot of research, so if there's another documented use it should have come up by now. Scolaire 18:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This is a tricky case; although only one document from the man's lifetime attests to one spelling, that is the usage which has come to predominate in other works. The case can be argued either way, and has been. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough. Thank you for taking the trouble to look at this, Stemonitis. Scolaire 07:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth[edit]

The Dictionary of Irish Biography says that MacDermott "was born January 1883 (baptised 29 January)". The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says it was "probably on 26 January 1884 [sic] (his birth was officially registered as 29 March, but his baptism is recorded as having taken place on 29 January)". The "1884" is a typo because his dates at the top of the article are 1883–1916. The only reference to a February DOB I can find on Google Books is this, which was taken straight from this article (I presume it was attributed per Creative Commons licence, I just can't see where). Taking all this into consideration, I see no reason to question this edit, which says that Seán MacDiarmada: 16Lives gives a date of 27 January 1883. That therefore becomes our most reliable source for his date of birth. Scolaire (talk) 09:32, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relationships[edit]

At present the sentences regarding his engagement are a mess. It was originally added in this edit (note the source referred to is inaccurately named, the book is called "Last Words" not "Loss Words"). Since then is has become quite garbled, as the sentence "Mac Diarmada had been in regular correspondence with Nell Ryan" is followed by "In his final letter he wrote: "Miss Ryan, she who in all probability, had I lived, would have been my wife"." and ""Min" Josephine Ryan and her sister, Phyllis, had been couriers to the GPO". So there are three references to women called "Ryan", and the article does not make it clear he was referring to "Min" Josephine Ryan. I propose removing the sentence about Nell Ryan as I don't understand the need to include that two people merely exchanged letters, and replace it with a sentence detailing his relationship with Min. FDW777 (talk) 17:07, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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