Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution

Ratification debate and its purpose

The section of this article on "Ratification Debate" contains a number of unsourced assertions that may be a-historical.

For example, the article states, "Against that backdrop, the framers saw the personal right to bear arms as a potential check against tyranny." This may not quite be the case. In the Federalist #25, for example, Hamilton cautions that "feeble government" is unlikely to be respected, and cites some instances where states have raised militias to quell the spirit of rebellion among the population. He writes:

"The conduct of Massachusetts affords a lesson on the same subject, though on different ground. That State (without waiting for the sanction of Congress, as the articles of the Confederation require) was compelled to raise troops to quell a domestic insurrection, and still keeps a corps in pay to prevent a revival of the spirit of revolt. The particular constitution of Massachusetts opposed no obstacle to the measure; but the instance is still of use to instruct us that cases are likely to occur under our government, as well as under those of other nations, which will sometimes render a military force in time of peace essential to the security of the society, and that it is therefore improper in this respect to control the legislative discretion. It also teaches us, in its application to the United States, how little the rights of a feeble government are likely to be respected, even by its own constituents. And it teaches us, in addition to the rest, how unequal parchment provisions are to a struggle with public necessity."

If there is an individual right to bear arms, the origin of this right likely lies elsewhere than in enabling the citizens to fight the government. It may have been so obvious to the framers that it didn't warrant much debate, but one likely reason for the second amendment was that the revolutionaries were, in casting off monarchy, also casting off the feudal system.

Under the feudal system, most nobles were knights, sworn to protect the clergy, their liege, and the peasants who lived on their land, and who were unarmed. Arming the peasants would have been seen as an important part of preventing the resurgence of a feudal society. This interpretation would agree with the prohibition against titles of nobility found in both the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation.

Inijones (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Not that this is the place for such a discussion, but one person arguing for a non-feeble government does not even address much less refute "potential check against tyranny" being one of the reasons for the 2A. North8000 (talk) 19:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Alexander Hamilton is hardly "one person arguing for non-feeble government." Inijones (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Which part of that is an incorrect description of what you wrote? North8000 (talk) 21:17, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Dismissing Hamilton's writings in the Federalist as just the opinions of one person is like saying "Benjamin Franklin was just some printer" or "Constantine was just some Roman who found Jesus one day." The Federalist Papers are a record of what people thought about the Constitution at the time it was ratified. If you believe that the Constitution means what it says, and that "activist judges" are a problem, then you are obligated to consider the Federalist Papers as a record of what the Constitution meant to the people who ratified it. If you dismiss the Federalist papers, you're no better than "activist judges." Inijones (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The Federalist Papers are a record of what the people who wrote the Constitution, not those who ratified it, thought it meant. SMP0328. (talk) 15:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Hamilton played little part in the writing of the constitution, and the authors of the Federalist papers were addressing their critics as well as their supporters, and so the document is a record of what people thought about the Constitution at the time it was ratified.Inijones (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The whole article is OR, using primary sources rather than secondary sources. The right to bear arms was already recognized in the American states under the Bill of Rights 1689. TFD (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The Bill of Rights 1689 is British law and so ceased to be binding in America post-independence. Such recognition by the States was under State Constitutions. SMP0328. (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

No, all English laws remained in force except where superceded by specific declarations or laws of the states. See for example Kilty's English Statutes, 1811 which explains which English laws continued in effect in Maryland. TFD (talk) 20:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It would make sense that the colonists would follow the British tradition on this regard (the British were still "subjects" and didn't become "citizens" until 1981, and still have no single constitution), but that tradition occurred in the context of a monarchism that was as opposed to the feudal system as were the revolutionists, who forbade titles of nobility in the constitution.Inijones (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The only citations in the section in question are from the constitution and the articles of confederation, save for a quote from Patrick Henry without any context, sourced from this page: http://www.quotes-museum.com/quote/Patrick_Henry/40613 and a quote from Sam Adams that reiterates what we all know is already in the constitution, and does nothing to clarify the terms of the historical debate.Inijones (talk) 21:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a clear example in the Federalist 44 of something being too obvious to warrant debate. Madison writes: "The prohibition with respect to titles of nobility is copied from the articles of Confederation and needs no comment." Constitutional constructionism requires adherents to understand the language of the constitution in terms of its meaning at the time it was written. So with historical debates like this, it is important to look at sociological evidence outside the letter of the law.Inijones (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

There is yet another view of this issue at: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/lhr/22.1/forum_konig.html Konig writes: "Analysis brought to bear on the historical meaning of 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' has coalesced around two competing normative interpretations: either that the amendment guarantees a personal, individual right to bear arms, or that it applies only collectively to the effectiveness of the militia. It is a premise of this essay that both these models are historically unsatisfactory, the products of present-day normative agendas that have polarized the debate into two competing and largely ahistorical models—a type of historians' fallacy that David Hackett Fischer has labeled the 'fallacy of false dichotomous questions.' Fischer's description aptly describes the current controversy over the historical meaning of the Second Amendment: in addition to being 'grossly anachronistic,' its two opposing positions 'are mutually exclusive, and collectively exhaustive, so that the there is no overlap, no opening in the middle, and nothing is omitted at either end.' It is not without challenge on just these grounds, however, as a recent call for a 'new more sophisticated paradigm' attests. This essay seeks to provide that new model and to do so by grounding the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms' in eighteenth-century concepts of rights, not those of the twenty-first century, and to contextualize the right to bear arms in an eighteenth-century political struggle now largely ignored but well known to constitutional polemicists framing the Constitution and the Bill of Rights: Parliament's rebuilding of an English militia while denying the Scots the right to do so, despite Scotland's history and its claimed constitutional rights according to its coequal status in Great Britain." Some of the evidence brought to bear by Konig would be worth including in the section of the Wikipedia article that I've raised issue with.Inijones (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In terms of Konig's argument noted above, the "right to bear arms" may have been meant to be construed in terms of a well regulated militia, specifically as an alternative to a standing army, the purpose of which was to repel foreign invasion, quell insurrection, in addition to serving as a check against tyranny (compare to Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, giving Congress the power to "raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years"). To Konig, the historical understanding involved an individual right as a function of a collective duty; this was notably in the absence of a feudal system of patronage and protection.Inijones (talk) 21:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The importance of historical context in a constructionist (originalist) milieu is discussed in a secondary source here http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/interp.html "There are five sources that have guided interpretation of the Constitution: (1) the text and structure of the Constitution, (2) intentions of those who drafted, voted to propose, or voted to ratify the provision in question, (3) prior precedents (usually judicial), (4) the social, political, and economic consequences of alternative interpretations, and (5) natural law. There is general agreement that the first three of these sources are appropriate guides to interpretation, but considerable disagreement as to the relative weight that should be given to the three sources when they point in different directions. Many interpreters of the Constitution have suggested that the consequences of alternative interpretations are never relevant, even when all other considerations are evenly balanced. Natural law (higher law, God's law) is now only infrequently suggested as an interpretive guide, even though many of the framers of the Constitution recognized its appropriateness. Persons who favor heavy reliance on originalist sources (text and intentions) are commonly called 'originalists.'"Inijones (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

First Paragraph

The first paragraph of the section in question reads: "There was substantial opposition to the new Constitution, because it moved the power to arm the state militias from the states to the federal government. This created a fear that the federal government, by neglecting the upkeep of the militia, could have overwhelming military force at its disposal through its power to maintain a standing army and navy, leading to a confrontation with the states, encroaching on the states' reserved powers and even engaging in a military takeover"

None of these statements are sourced. The fears of neglecting the militia are discussed in context in the article by Konig I mentioned above, but the assertion about the federal government's ability to maintain a standing army needs clarification in light of Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution which I have cited above, giving Congress the power to "raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years." Which is to say, that the framers seemed wary of standing armies, and took steps to safeguard against their establishment. At the time monarchs were disarming peasants to centralize power in armies and dismantle the feudal system. Also, standing armies were expensive and tended to bankrupt nations. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_France "Under Louis XIV France achieved military supremacy over its rivals, but escalating conflicts against increasingly powerful enemy coalitions checked French ambitions and left the kingdom bankrupt at the opening of the 18th century." The origin of Swiss political neutrality had to do with the fact that their national industry was a mercenary army for hire, as if to make it known that their involvement in military affairs was a strictly commercial proposition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries "Until roughly 1490, the Swiss had a virtual monopoly on pike-armed mercenary service. However, after that date, the Swiss mercenaries were increasingly supplemented by imitators, chiefly the Landsknechts. Landsknechts were Germans (at first largely from Swabia) and became proficient at Swiss tactics to produce a force that filled the ranks of European armies with mercenary regiments for decades. Although the Landsknechts were never quite as redoubtable as the Swiss, they were much more readily available for hire, as after 1515 the Swiss pledged themselves to neutrality, other than regarding Swiss soldiers serving in the ranks of the Royal French army"

The Constitutional provision to maintain a Navy was primarily about commerce and piracy, as the US was largely pre-industrial. According to http://www.history.navy.mil/history/history2.htm "The Continental Congress had a very limited role in mind for the navy. It was not expected to contest British control of the seas, but rather to wage a traditional guerre de course against British trade, in conjunction with the scores of privateers outfitting in American ports. The Continental navy's ships were to raid commerce and attack the transports that supplied British forces in North America. To carry out this mission, the Continental Congress began to build up, through purchase, conversion, and new construction, a cruiser navy of small ships--frigates, brigs, sloops, and schooners. For the most part, Continental navy ships cruised independently or in pairs in search of their prey, avoiding whenever possible fights with Royal Navy men-of-war."Inijones (talk) 15:12, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Also from http://www.history.navy.mil/history/history2.htm "In Philadelphia in 1787, delegates drew up a constitution, which was adopted in 1789. As part of that debate, the Federalists, the nationalists who supported the new scheme of government, envisioned a state powerful enough to maintain a navy capable of protecting U.S. commerce. Some Federalists went even further. Alexander Hamilton argued that while the United States could not challenge Europe's principal maritime powers on the seas, in the event of a European war pitting France against Great Britain, a small fleet of American battleships would allow the United States to play the makeweight in the balance of power in the Western Hemisphere. For Hamilton and his supporters, a navy could play a broad national role in pursuit of the interests of the United States, and not just a limited role protecting the ships and cargoes of U.S. merchants." Inijones (talk) 15:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

New First Paragraph

I propose amending the section on "Ratification Debate" to include a new first paragraph to ground the relevance of the section.

I propose this text:

When seeking to understand or interpret provisions in the US Constitution, it is important to take historical context into consideration. In the context of originalism in particular, it is important to understand the language of the Constitution in terms of what that language meant to the people who wrote and ratified the text. Accordingly, the historical terms of debate continue to have relevance today.

Not done: {{edit semi-protected}} is not required for edits to unprotected pages.--Hazel77 ^talk 18:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Couple quick thoughts. Sounds like giving the reader instructions rather than information. Also might be giving too much emphasis to that angle, one of many. North8000 (talk) 18:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the ratification debate. TFD (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok. How about this:

Beyond historical curiosity, the Second Amendment ratification debate is of practical import, particularly to adherents of originalist and strict constructionist legal theories. In the context of such legal theories and elsewhere, it is important to understand the language of the Constitution in terms of what that language meant to the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution.

If North8000 doesn't like that, then I propose the whole section be removed (unless (s)he has a better reason to preserve it than what I have just identified).

As TFD noted in the discussion above, the section in question is substantially original research, does not meet Wikipedia standards, and contains other problems which I have outlined (with citations) in two discussion sections above.

I really don't see much that should be controversial about my proposed amendment to the article. Inijones (talk) 16:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Only Amendment to not have main text c quote format?? Why?

I went over this in the past and I an not getting it. Either all the amendment main text should be about the same format. See list of amendments here List of ratified amendments It is understood that gun laws and rights are very controversial, I have concerns this may be a very subtle NPOV issue. I came here just to simply find the actual text and had a hard time finding it and I don't quite get the necessity that slight punctuation variances need to take top billing. Again either all should have cquote or none. Lets discuss. --0pen$0urce (talk) 16:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

This has come up several times. I really don't have an opinion (so, either way is fine with me) except to say that it should be whatever works best for this article, not be driven by what is happening in any other articles in any of the various "groups" of articles that folks may envision it being in. Also that a change should not be put in by edit warring. North8000 (talk) 16:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid reason for changing an article against guidelines. See WP:MOSQUOTE ("especially avoid decorative quotation marks in normal use, such as those provided by the cquote template, which are reserved for pull quotes"). If you want to override the guidelines, then you need to obtain a consensus for it here first, not implement your view of how it should be. Leave it alone until and if you've obtained that consensus.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Disagree this is overriding guidelines. See "A pull quote (also known as a lift-out quote) is a quotation or excerpt from an article that is typically placed in a larger or distinctive typeface on the same page, serving to entice readers into an article or to highlight a key topic. I disagree that this is improper use of Cquote or again why aren't the other amendment which are very relevant allotted Cquote. Again why such aggressive policing of this amendment and not the same treatment afforded to the first and the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,...??? This isn't being decorative this is enticing the reader and drawing them to the main text as in the other amendment of the US constitution. I disagree this is for decorative reasons, it is for distinct text at the beginning of a section. So Bbb23 has one opinion my is opposing. Lets discuss with the community.--0pen$0urce (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I lean slightly towards preferring the pull quotes, but lean strongly against you edit warring in a change. Let's discuss this more thoroughly in order to thoroughly settle once and for all this matter which keeps coming up again and again. North8000 (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm through edit-warring and also through responding to Open. I've spent time on this before and it's a waste.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I reverted Open on the change and felt that they were the one edit warring, not you. But I think that it would be good to, in some manner, place extra emphasis on the amendment itself. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

As usual, your conduct is honest and professional. I'll let other editors weigh in on this issue if they wish, but it doesn't usually generate a lot of interest.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

@0pen$0urce: "Enticing the reader and drawing them in" by highly selective quotation is a massive WP:NPOV problem, and one of the main reasons MOS eschews the style (I think MOS should outright ban it citing NPOV policy, but we'll see). Wikipedia is not journalism, and manipulative journo tricks like that are not appropriate in an encyclopedia, just like we do not use tantalizingly incomplete, "cliff-hanger" information in lead sections to hook readers, the way a journalistic lede does. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 09:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV in the Introduction

The article as presented takes a particular side in the gun debate, and in fact glosses over the gun debate entirely:

"The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights."

The article introduction thus must be said to be written from a POV rather than NPOV. There are two main interpretations of the Second Amendment, and the gun debate largely stems from these interpretations. The ratified text of the Second Amendment reads:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Hence the two main interpretations are:

1. There is a stated "right of the people to keep and bear Arms" that exists independently of all other principles and concepts.
2. The stated "right of the people to keep and bear Arms" falls entirely within the concept of keeping "a well regulated Militia," a Militia that is "necessary" for keeping "the security of a free state."

I propose a rewrite of the article lead in keeping with NPOV, a rewrite which lays out these two general interpretations of the Second Amendment. While the information about recent court cases is interesting, I do not support bolstering the pro-gun side in this article, by referencing only recent court cases, and failing to reference the debate, its long history, and that debates' continued relevance. Instead of promoting one interpretation up front, we must first present the text of the Second Amendment, and afterwards we may then break down the two basic interpretations. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 18:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Read District of Columbia v. Heller, McDonald v. Chicago and this talk page's archives. This article reflects the current Supreme Court interpretation of the Second Amendment, just like other Constitutional amendment articles reflect current Supreme Court interpretations of those amendments. SMP0328. (talk) 19:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a gun debate in the United States is there not? Why then present the issue as one-sided, according to only the whims of SCOTUS interpretation? -Stevertigo (t | c) 19:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Because the Supreme Court's opinion is the only one that has the force of law. This article reflects the officially recognized meaning of the Second Amendment, not what others want the amendment to mean. SMP0328. (talk) 19:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I might add that there are articles that address the "gun debate" in the U.S. See, for example, Gun politics in the United States. And although you (Steve) may not approve of the recent Supreme Court decisions on the second amendment, I wouldn't refer to them as "whims" but as the current definitive interpretation of the amendment.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

This has been extensively discussed. This is a legal instrument, and what the Supreme court says is by definition the legal answer to that question. The other opinions are also covered (particularly in the historical sense before it was decided). North8000 (talk) 19:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the idea that we here at Wikipedia respect the "force of law," and we keep articles up to date with the latest in legal opinion. But legal opinions and interpretations can and do change - what matters for us is that we write articles with a wider scope of field. Our highest principle here is NPOV, not SCOTUSPOV. Hence, the proper way to deal with SCOTUSPOV is to give it only due weight, and to put its assertions in context as: "recent Supreme Court opinions state support for the concept of a right to bear arms" etc. Even though recent SCOTUS opinion states such, in a free society we are free to look at the Constitution itself, and read for ourselves whether the Constitution actually supports such a right: According to an honest reading it may not, and according to NPOV we are obliged to represent such views in balance. Again, NPOV is our prime directive, not SCOTUSPOV. -Stevertigo (t | c) 19:39, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

PS: North8000 wrote: "This is a legal instrument..." - Actually this is an encyclopedic instrument, not a legal one. -Stevertigo (t | c) 19:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

By "legal instrument" I meant the second amendment. And on a matter of law, (which this is) SCOTUS does not opine on the legal meaning, it defines it; i.e. what it says is by definition the legal meaning. North8000 (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Right. But I'm not talking about the Second Amendment, I'm talking about how we present it and its varied interpretations in this article. Clearly SCOTUSPOV factors in prominently. But NPOV demands we be fair to other interpretations. Same with for example, abortion - we don't write an article about abortion in the US solely deferring to Roe v. Wade: We also have to note that there are good honest people who disagree entirely with Roe v. Wade and actively seek to overturn it. -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

But Roe V Wade did not define the meaning of an amendment. North8000 (talk) 20:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The Second Amendment had a "meaning" when it was written did it not? And it had a "meaning" ten minutes before McDonald v Chicago, did it not? If we are to talk at all about "meaning" we must address the Second Amendment's "meaning" over its life of 200+years, not just the last three. -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Prior to Heller the legal meaning with respect to the question in your original post was an unresolved question, now it no longer is. North8000 (talk) 20:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The law is always in a state of construction and refinement. Its meaning is not as clear cut as the pro-gun lobby would like us to think. Do you no longer wish to discuss improving this article? -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You brought up something you felt would improve the article. Several of us have rejected your proposal and your reasoning. As an aside, there is already in the article a fair amount of history on the second amendment and its meaning by different scholars, different justices, and different cases. I see no encyclopedic basis for expanding the article (already too bloated in my view) in the way you've suggested.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:28, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It was my intent here to raise an issue of improving the article in accord with NPOV. Do you disagree with NPOV and what it means? -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree with your claim that wp:nopv supports the changes that you prefer. North8000 (talk) 21:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Not so respectfully, you (Steve) need to learn how to discuss issues without resorting to loaded, baseless, cross-examination-like questions.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, at the very least, the article needs to frame the recent court opinions as 'recent court opinions.' I understand that recent decisions frame the current law of the land. Still its wrong to approach a topic open to interpretation with only one interpretation. Stevertigo (t | c) 21:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed that the statement that you are taking issue with is directly quoted from the amendment itself! So you are saying the exact wording of the amendment is a POV statement about what the amendment means?!?! Or, to put it another way, you are saying that the amendment directly states and supports what you are calling the position of the "gun lobby". :-) North8000 (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. Both interpretations 1 and 2 directly quote the amendment. One does so in limited context: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed," the other does so in full context: "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State." -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

PS: I just read your questions again. I am only taking issue with one thing - the default usage of recent Supreme Court cases to trump any issue of debate regarding the interpretation of the Second Amendment. We owe it to our readers to present a more balanced view, one which gives some regard to its long and debated history, and the two basic ways one can interpret the original text. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious, what would you change in the edit, keeping in mind that you need to avoid giving WP:UNDUE weight to a minority view which also breaches NPOV? This isn't the gun control debate article, this is the 2nd Amendment article, so it focuses on what that means which is determined by court rulings. Ravensfire (talk) 22:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflict, responding only to previous post. So to briefly sum up, what I'm saying is that it's a legal instrument, and the legal meaning of that legal instrument (with respect to the debate that you are discussing) has been settled by the body with ultimate authority for determining it. Controversies should be noted, particularly in the historical sense. Take for example the nineteenth amendment giving women the right to vote. The amendment was/is claimed by some to be invalid. The article covers that claim, and how the court ruled on it. This article does the same, and gives much more space to the claims that it doesn't grant an individual right. Despite this, it's not considered to be POV to say that the 19th amendment gave women the right to vote in the lead. North8000 (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate both of your comments and questions (Ravensfire and North8000). In short I think the best way to answer your requests is to edit the article itself to show what I think the article intro should read. In short, the article should show the actual amendment text prominently - something we can do in cases like this where the actual text (the text which is the subject of the article) is quite short and to the point.

We then move on to issues of interpretation - it is of course valid to do as in the current version to feature recent SCOTUS opinion prominently, but I think its important to put these opinions in context as "recent court opinions". The issue with featuring SCOTUS opinion upfront is that it not only trumps the issue of the gun debates, but fails to explain the context of those debates - that part of the debate flows directly from differences in the interpretation of the amendment itself. Im not clear about how to introduce the gun debate here in a way which would not solicit the ire of good folks here, particularly if those good folks for some reason think the debates are over or are else settled somehow. But what I can do is implement the first two changes noted above, leaving the interpretation context for later, and those would go a long way toward answering the needs of this article. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the better course of action for you to place your proposed material in Gun politics in the United States. This article meant to show the amendment's official meaning. The official meaning of any Constitutional provision is determined by SCOTUS, even though SCOTUS may change that meaning occasionally. SMP0328. (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I also think that if Steve wants to make any changes along the lines he's suggesting to this article, he should put them on the Talk page first because it's highly likely they will be reverted if put in the article itself.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I have edited the article in accord with the plan I have laid out above, and the edited version can be seen here. PS: Here is the diff. Note that per the BRD concept, I understood that I would probably be reverted and that we would naturally discuss my edits here.

As an aside, when I first came here to this article, I realized that it would naturally attract a strong following from editors with pro-gun and gun rights views, and that it may be difficult to separate them from an indeliberate agenda to render the article in accord with pro-gun concepts. However I am also been editing here for about a decade, and I know that even the most entrenched POV editors can come around, given a good faith approach that respects the intelligence of all involved. In the case that I am in fact dealing with pro-gun editors here, I would encourage these editors to separate their activism from their editing. NPOV is our highest principle - not a particular political agenda. -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand that you want to drastically reduce the article, but you pulled out a dull machete, not a sharp knife. Your edit, frankly, left the page in an awful state that looks terrible. References. Categories. Inter-wiki links. See also. Chopped. For that reason alone I reverted your edits. You might consider working in a user sandbox rather than here, especially given you know what the reaction would be. Ravensfire (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm assuming he's screwing up the article inadvertently, but doesn't he even look at the article after his edit? He keeps doing it, too. Now, I'm just using rollback rather than undoing with an explanation.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

{{WP:NPOV|neutrality]] does not require us to reflect to accept the majority decision of the SCOTUS as definitive. Why not just state what the amendment says? TFD (talk) 22:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I don't understand what you're saying.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

He's agreeing with me in principle that we give due weight, not undue weight to current SCOTUS opinion. -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Note I apologise for the errors visible in this edit, I did not intend to cut large sections from the article. Either this happened as a result of an error in the cut and paste function, or as a problem with my wifi. Regards - Stevertigo (t | c) 22:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Stevertigo, please refrain from making personal attacks. The articles related to gun poliitics have many interested editors, some of whom may hold strong personal opinions on either extreme, but all of whom are assumed to be able to set their views aside for the purpose of improving the article.

As far as I can see, no one has disagreed with you based on POV; they have tried to explain that, in the United States, the Supreme Court is the body which interprets the constitution. The Supreme Court has interpreted the Second Amendment as protecting an individual right to keep and bear arms. I think it is important to capture the different viewpoints which existed before and even after that decision, but those viewpoints should have very little weight compared to the Supreme Court decision. At most, we should add a mention of the earlier debate to the end of the lede. Celestra (talk) 23:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

1) In no way can my comments be interpreted or characterized as a "personal attack." 2) How little weight is very little? 3) It seems at least you agree that some mention of the gun debate belongs in the lede. -Stevertigo (t | c) 07:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult to see how they might be interpreted otherwise; you accused your fellow editors, en masse, of being "POV editors" and having agendas. Please assume that all of the editors are interested in producing the best article possible and merely disagree with you on how to accomplish that. Celestra (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed changes

The link to my proposed edit is here and the diff is here, and the full text with changes underlined is below. As part of the BRD cycle my changes to the article were reverted, thus bringing us to the discussion stage. The edited version reads:

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that deals with the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The full text of the amendment as passed by Congress reads:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In the United States there has been an ongoing debate on the issue of firearms, and there has been a historical debate over the way the Second Amendment has been interpreted —either the Second Amendment asserts an unqualified and unlimited right to bear arms, or else the above stated right to bear arms exists only in the context of a regulated militia that serves to ensure national security. Gun rights advocates have naturally promoted the first view, while gun control advocates have promoted the second.

Explanation of the above edits

1. To say that the provision protects the right to bear arms is presumptuous, given that support for this view cites Supreme Court opinions only 4 and 2 years old, almost 250 years after the Second Amendment was crafted. It may be fair to say that the issue is 'finally settled', but we don't write articles that ignore nearly 250 years of interpretation and legal debate. The NPOV way to deal with these kinds of introductions is simply to state that the amendment 'deals with' or 'pertains to' the issue of gun rights, etc.
2. Including the full text of the Second Amendment in the lede only makes sense. Why keep the current version, which jumps over even the actual amendment text, to mention tediously recent court opinion?
3. Including a short treatment of the role of the Second Amendment in the overall gun debate only makes sense. It may be that the version we agree on will put this treatment after the part dealing with recent court opinion, but it is clear I think that some treatment of the gun debate is necessary.

Regards to all, -Stevertigo (t | c) 07:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

1. Several different people have tried to explain the role of the Supreme Court. The fact that the Supreme Court made those interpretations recently does not remove the history, but it does determine the actual meaning today. I feel the article's lede is better, and more neutral, if we state that up front rather than using weasel words to obscure the fact. Examine the ledes of the other articles in the Bil of Rights, you will find assertions of "protect" and "prohibit" in most.
2. While you are examining those ledes, you will find no cases where the text is included. The lede is the place to tell the reader what the article is about, not to present raw data.
3. I think it inappropriate to drag the larger debate into the lede. The Second Amendment had been a factor in those ongoing debates, not the other way around. Mentioning the fact that people disagreed about the meaning prior to the decisions is different than rehashing the larger debate here, especially in the lede.

Regards, Celestra (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Celestra, I'm fine with stating the recent SCOTUS interpretation upfront, but does it really have to be first thing one sees after the introductory sentence? And on the matter of putting things upfront, why not put the actual amendment text upfront, where the reader can quickly see for themselves what the subject is about? The amendment is rather nice and short, and given its longevity, we might even regard it as well-written! I'm a firm believer in putting our best upfront and forward. Just because other amendment articles do not do this (this amendment is rather nice and short) there is no rule saying that we shouldn't put the actual text upfront. What's more is this article has had some notably long history of differing interpretation, I think pro-gun editors here tend toward wanting to make an end-run around these prominent differences and debates. Its not an NPOV way of approaching a subject of controversy.

In your previous comment you supported the idea of including some kind of treatment of the gun debate, at least toward the end of the lede. This is something we appeared to agree on. Are you reconsidering this view? You say now: "I think it inappropriate to drag the larger debate into the lede. The Second Amendment had been a factor in those ongoing debates, not the other way around." This actually doesn't appear to make sense: Just because the debates came second doesnt mean that we don't state here how seminal and fundamental the amendment text has been to the resulting long-standing debates. Its like pro-gun editors here want us to believe these debates are now long-resolved, just months after the recent published opinions. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 21:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

@Stevertigo, I make a distinction between remarking on the disagreement about the meaning of this amendment and discussing the broader gun rights/gun control debate. We have sections devoted to the disagreement, so it is not unreasonable to mention in the lede. We do not have sections devoted to "role of the Second Amendment in the overall gun debate." I do not feel that would be appropriate.

You continue to present the problem as one of a NPOV editor trying to correct for the undue bias pro-gun editors have injected, but I think that is not a fair assessment of the current lede. It would be distorting the facts to the benefit of the gun control POV to obscure the basic fact that the amendment means what the branch of the government enpowered to interpret it says it means. We should not include assertions that try to extend that interpretation, nor should we try to make it seem less. In my opinion, the lede begins with the correct generalization and includes text that some log-standing restrictions were not unconstitutional. That seems neutral to me.

The "let's just put the raw data out there and let the reader decide for themselves" approach is not an NPOV approach. It is weighted against the conventional interpretation by elevating the reader's interpretation above that of the mainstream. We should not do that. If you'd like to propose some text to add to the end of the lede, we can discuss that, but I think there is a total lack of consensus for either softening reality in the first sentence or inserting the text into the lede. Celestra (talk) 01:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The actual amendment text is not "raw data" - it is clearly and eloquently written language, which according to one view states explicitly that there is a right to bear arms. It is the actual text, roughly 250 years old, which millions of people down the generations have read since our country was founded. Its also blessedly short, and supposedly speaks for itself. So its rather unlikely that people should find it unpalatable to feature it prominently here. (We can talk about the other issues after we deal with this one). It is an NPOV approach, and your comment that the straight shooter approach..

"is weighted against the conventional interpretation by elevating the reader's interpretation above that of the mainstream"

..can only be called "silly" - your view seeks to promote a particular interpretation which you fear the reader might not get from the actual Constitutional amendment text. -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Half right; I am afraid that we would mislead the reader if we were to do as you suggest. Celestra (talk) 05:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

For several reasons, I don't think the full text belongs in the lead. First is sheer consistency - all of the other Bill of Rights articles have the text as the first section after the lead. Second is the purpose of the lead. It should provide an introduction to the topic. That doesn't need nor is improved by the full text. Put a basic, straight-forward language description of the amendment then explain the major supreme court decisions interpreting the amendment. It's consistent with the other BoR amendment articles and very straight forward. Ravensfire (talk) 04:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

How then to deal with the fact that this amendment's meaning, according to editors above, has been in a state of flux until only a couple years ago? Its also not unlikely that if the 5-4 balance in the Supreme Court is overturned, the recent SCOTUS opinions might be overturned as well, hence would we write the article in accord with the gun control perspective, ignoring the long history of gun rights support? -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

If the SC decision is overturned, the article gets edited, just like every other article. The history goes in the body. We write the article, like every other article, in accord with the current view. Here, that means the current prevailing SC decision(s). We don't pull out the WP:CRYSTALBALL and guess the future. Say here's what it is and where it came from. Ravensfire (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The Amendment that gave women the right to vote was challenged as being invalid, and SCOTUS ruled that it was valid. By the reasoning of the proposal, we should note the alternate view (that it is invalid and women don't have the right to vote) in the lead of the article on that amendment! North8000 (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The lead is NPOV as is. Adding “Gun rights advocates promote unqualified and unlimited right to bear arms” is POV. In light of Heller, the “ongoing debate” issue has been relegated to inconsequential status, since SCOTUS interpreted the meaning of the second amendment, and therefore does not belong in the lead. Grahamboat (talk) 19:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Along with North8000's excellent example, there's the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and Tax protester Sixteenth Amendment arguments. There are editors who would add claims to the former article that the amendment's ratification was invalid, but, since those claims have been resolved by the federal courts (including SCOTUS) as being invalid, the latter article was created so those claims could be expressed in the proper context. In this case, Gun politics in the United States in the proper article for Stevertigo. SMP0328. (talk) 19:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)