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Edit Req: The founder of Naam Tamilar Iyakkam -> Mr. Athithanar
Unsourced biographical material removed
I removed wholly unsourced biographical material from the article, and per a request from WP:RFPP, semi-protected it for 3 days. Hopefully this will allow time for editors to research in order to find some WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
File:Sebastin Seeman01.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
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Removed some BLP violating content
Here's a list of sources disputed in the recent disagreements, based on :
- 2011 Anti-Congress Campaigning:
- 2012 to present
Several conflicting edits have surfaced regarding the surname of the person, such as Sebastian, but most of the sources cited in these edits fail WP:RS and the very few that do has not been consistent with the usage of that surname as evidenced by my reverts, nor is there any substantial inline research to validate their stand. As of now, these sources include three popular Indian dailies namely The Hindu, New Indian Express and Times of India. While one or two articles have used the surname, the majority of the articles have appeared without it.
Apparently, there is no established ground for using that term unless background research or official clarifications from the person himself is on paper. Moreover the official website concerning Seeman and his party refers to him by only Seeman or Senthamizhan Seeman(his paternal name) and there is no mention of Sebastian wheresoever. Hence, objectors are welcome to please discuss this fact and clarify some valid notions behind including that surname.--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 10:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
--I like how you(CUCL2) have gone around updating the "native name" in various other wiki articles where it suits you. I am just holding the article here to the same standards. RE your argument: A person's surname/fullname is never used all the time when being addressed and because it is not used in all cases it cannot be said the surname doesnt exist leave alone calling it wrong. Wikipedia being like a encyclopedia/dictionary is supposed to have the persons full name apart from his/her native name which you are helping with in other articles. The persons surname has been referenced from "some" credible sources(by your own admission) that have been around for more than a 100 years(the hindu).
--Of course given the "official" stand of the party against non Tamil names, it would be suicidal to expose the party leader's non Tamil birth name. It makes sense for the party and its supporters to hide it as much as possible. Especially Sebastian Seeman is known for his vitriolic rhetoric against naming anything with non-Tamil names, it is important to expose his Christian/non-Tamil name.
First, I would like to reiterate that Wikipedia is not a platform to 'expose'. The so-called surname Sebastian is supported by mostly sources which fail to meet WP:RS or finds inconsistent use in the very few sources that do. Apparently from the above references I have attached for your consideration including the very old The Hindu, you will be able to see that, a large majority of the news articles have appeared and continue to appear with the mention of just Seeman and without any surname. So it is safe to say the commonly recognizable name is what is present in the article as per my latest edits.
Any material suggesting otherwise some thing else should have a secondary source (WP:inline citation) to support the editor's interpretation. For example refer to the BLPs of Rajinikanth or Sivaji Ganesan. There exists a birth name different than that of the article titles(currently commonly recognizable name), which are backed by citations that those are indeed their respective birth names. In your case however, a handful of articles though apparently claim reference to the same person, fails to substantiate on the origin of the name nor accounts for verfiability(WP:V) that, whether the name mentioned is exact as the person's birth name.
And last but not the least, remember Wikipedia articles especially WP:BLPs are not tabloids, so sensationalist and opinionated claims cannot be included, and do not misuse primary sources for your own POV. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. So citing several sources at go is no alibi and simply constitutes WP:OR which as you might no is prohibited here.
"Rajnikanth" is a screen name, different from his original name but, adding a surname to a name makes it complete and not different. If Hindu and Express are not very reliable sources for citing a person's name correctly and if this requires that high a level of research, I can only imagine the amount of proof and original research that would be needed to substantiate a single individuals contribution to the defeat of a party in an election in the largest democracy in the world. Since you dont have a problem with the "Seeman effect on the congress party", please point out to me the original research that has gone into that section and I will try to come up with the same quality of work and substantiate Sebastian's name. What was so "sensational and opinionated" about his brothers name? Why was that removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:9:1C80:B9F:646A:8A3E:C3AE:2C14 (talk) 17:52, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Reply, Please be informed or at least inform yourself when participating at a talk page. I have repeatedly linked you to WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:Inline citations and WP:NOR. By your own acceptance, you have stated that BLP articles like Rajinikanth are driven by their commonly recognizable names rather than their other possible aliases. So in this case, the name Seeman is the commonly recognized name, while references to his name including Sebastian is of a far lesser number. I have already pointed out links for that comparison.
So, please provide sources that do not only merely mention of the person's surname but also with supplementary information of its origin or since when has it been in use/out of use. Otherwise the name which is given the majority of the articles will be in use. As of now There is simply no way to verify that the person has a surname or whether Sebastian is indeed the surname of the person. Get my drift? And I suppose this discussion is pertaining to one thing, and your analogy of the individual's conquest of a party would take this off-topic. Just in case, that section is backed by sources which explains the content in the material, unlike in your case, where you are drawing your own interpretations.
- Note: Also note, this is the only name mentioned in the official party website, which you keep deliberately reverting in your edits. So if you want to prove some thing he isn't (like when you alleged he was hiding his religion or surname), your sources must explain in detail relevant information pertaining to the same. All your allegations and interpretations constitute WP:OR, and reverting verified material for WP:OR that suits your WP:POV may result you getting blocked from editing Wikipedia. Thank you.--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 18:40, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
The article on Rajini mention his real name and I am holding the article here to the same standards, just like what you;ve done with your other edits for native names. Where is the proof or the sources that explain his name is Seeman or the " supplementary information of its origin" and that his first name is NOT Sebastian that is different from those that mention his first name is Sebastian? Again why does adding a surname to a name make it different leave alone defame the person? What is so defamatory about the name Sebastian? Why is one article from a website more credible than the other? Please explain what I have interpreted/alleged in the main article on display? I am merely adding a person's surname name from sources. Why is a person's name subjective information? I am not questioning "Seemans effect on congress" for what the section says but I am just asking where the substantiation/sources for the contents in this section is coming from that you see it to be credible enough to be there that is absent in other sources. Where is the original research and the supplementary information that is absent from the sources that I've included that is present in these articles? Please explain so I can provide them. And again what is so defamatory about mentioning he has a brother? I've quoted multiple sources here, are there sources that mention he doesnt have a brother? What was that removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:9:1C80:B9F:646A:8A3E:C3AE:2C14 (talk) 19:35, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
- I have already presented my case regarding the use of <Seeman> outnumbering <Sebastian Seeman> in the number of articles across reliable sources(The Indian Express, TOI, Hindu). Hence the popular and commonly referred name is the former and not the latter with the surname; likewise for Rajinikanth over Shivaji Rao Gaikand. Please understand, this has nothing to do with native names and what not.
- If you want to include this so-called surname, you can incorporate it AFTER PROVIDING verifiable sources that it was/continues to be his surname. Since none of the sources you cite, specifically designates it as his surname nor are they from his official documents like his passport or birth document, and since the official website mentions of no surname, it will not be incorporated unless you can prove its existence and validity.
- In short, the use of Sebastian is contentious, given its both omitted from the official website and lacking mention in the clear majority of articles. And it is obvious from your earlier comments, that you are inserting the same with the intention to 'expose'(technically defame) the person. The inference that it must be his surname/birth name is your own interpretation, as none of the sources specify it being one, a clear case of WP:OR.
If you continue to unilaterally revert my edits without substantiating for the above three points(which have been clearly outlined to you several times over since the start of the dispute), you will be reported to the WP:ANI for further action.--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 20:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
To "expose" something means to uncover it, make known and lay it out in the open, the reason wikipedia exists. The common usage may mean to lay open to danger and to attack. See what happens when the lesser known, less commonly used synonyms are not made well known?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:9:1C80:B9F:646A:8A3E:C3AE:2C14 (talk) 20:39, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
- Reply In Wikipedia, you do not revert unless a consensus is reached in the discussion or you have comprehensively clarified with the other editors. Also inform yourself on WP:3RR which you have violated in more than a single occasion. The official website mentions only Seeman and clearly no surname exists. That is the name to be used as long as you cannot provide evidence of his surname(The newspaper articles could have mistakenly added it for the very small number of articles your referencing;in any case we go by the majority of the articles which DO NOT mention a surname). Anyways, Im bringing this to the administrators' notice like you had sought for. Clear case of POV pushing going by your earlier comments.--CuCl2 (chat spy acquaint) 17:13, 6 April 2015 (UTC)