Talk:Sephardi Jews

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Number of Sephardi Jews[edit]

In 1999 SHAS, the party which represents non-Ashkenazi Jews, i.e. Mizrahi + Sephardi, polled 430,000 votes. Given the fact that some of the Sephardi Jews vote for the Likud Party also and that they tend to have more children than the Ashkenazim, the number of Sephardi Jews stated in the article is grossly under-estimated. The fact the Labour Party - a stronghold of the liberal-letist Ashkenazi elite - has been in power continuously from 1948 to 1977 and mostly out of power since then is partly a result of the change in demographics (apart from the influx of former Soviet Jews, of which 15-20% were non Ashkenazim from Central Asia). There is also no inclusion of the 20,000 Iranian Jews. Petruclej (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sephardi Jews - 9 images[edit]

Copied from user's talk pages

DOB is fine... please bear in mind that the images will line up differently on different peoples computers. 9 images might look ok on your screen but it might look out of alignment for somebody else.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Dr who1975! Thanks for your note. Hadn't thought of that... Do you think a solution just as the one that was found for Portuguese people is a good idea? I'll work on it and propose it. Thank! The Ogre (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The image you sent me from the portuguese page is actually very common. If you look at pages such as African American, Italians, Irish American and Jew you'll see that arrangement. I wouldnb't say it's universal as pages like Irish people, Italian American, and Ashkenazi Jews don't have it but still... it's very common.--Dr who1975 (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello again! Following your last note, I have uploaded to the commons the image you can see below. I'm putting it in the article. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get the picture of Jacques Derrida?... I wouldn;t recomened using it if it's copyrighted... not sure if it would get the image deleted or not.--Dr who1975 (talk) 21:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not copirighted - check the page at the commons! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 21:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The most famous Sephardi/Mizrahi Jew alive is missing from this photomontage - Rav Ovadia Yosef - surely more important than Rav Shlomo Amar... Petruclej (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably! I wouldn't know. Notice however that this article is about Sephardi strictu senso, which does not include Mizrahi. Ovadia Yosef is, I belive, an Iraqi Jew, is he not? And Amar is the present Sephardi Chief Rabi in Israel, is he not? And he is listed as being Sephardi, not Mizrahi, in List of Sephardi Jews, even if he comes, or his family, from Morroco - where a lot of Iberian Jews took refuge. When I made this image my intention was not to present a final, authoritative, list of Sephardi Jews - I just wanted to improve on the format problems that the presence of several different images provoked, and to introduce some simetry - in the number os pictures (there where only seven before) and in the the profile of people pictured (that is why I introduced a modern non-religious intelectual and a modern rabi). Do you see my point? Of course an open discussion can be put forward regarding who should be pictured. I believe some principles should prevail: historical diversity, religious / non-religious diversity, national diversity, professional diversity, gender diversity. In a word: diversity. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 15:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
There's no requirement that the most famous individuals have to be pictured. I know less about the history of Sephardic Jewry than either of you so I can’t argue as to any individuals authenticity as a Sephardic Jew. Just a note: are we sure the page is only about people with a Sephardic heritage. I could make an argument that a Rabbi who was not born Sephardic but contributed greatly to Sephardic tradition could indeed make them a de facto Sephardic Jew (my first point overrides the necessity for any such person to be pictured). If I moved to a Sephardic temple and identified myself as one I certainly wouldn’t want someone telling me I wasn’t one.--Dr who1975 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that this article is about ethnic Sephardi and not liturgycal Sephardi (as it is stated in the Definition). The Ogre (talk) 17:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's such an artificial distinction between Jews who originally migrated fron Spain and other non-Ashkenazi Jews - the Mizrahim. Many of the Jews from from Spain have found their way to Egypt, Persia, Afganistan, Iraq and India. My point is that Rav Shlomo Amar is a quite unremarkable rabbi (as chief rabbi he is appointed by the state) and a follower of Rav Ovadia who is the most revered Sephardi/Mizrahi rabbi in th world. And why is Paula Abdul - a Syrian Jew - so remarkable? She is surely a dwarf when compared to Enrico Macias, Yehoram Gaon, Ofra Haza (sorry, as Yemenite she should be excluded according to your criteria), Elias Cannetti, Siegfried Sassoon, Carl Djerassi, Edmond Safra, Emma Lazarus, Benjamin Cardozo, etc. Petruclej (talk) 18:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you may be right in all acounts! That distinctions may be "artificial", as you say, but it is still there - and I understood this to be the article about Sephardim strictu senso - this was not my choice! The article was already that as a result of previous discussions, I suppose. Notice that there is an article about the Mizrahi Jews (and that, as all categories, including Ashkenazi, may be an artificial category!). If this article is about both Sephardi strictu senso and Mizrahi then we have unbalanced articles. And, even if distinctions may be somewhat artificial, I do believe that there were some differences between Jews originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) and Jews who already resided in North African and Middle East countries before the expulsion from Iberia. And do notice that many Sephardi did not go to the Islamic world but to France, the Netherlands, and the Americas (namely the US and Brazil) - see Spanish and Portuguese Jews. If some of the people now pictured are not Sephardi strictu senso please say so (is that what you are saying about Paula Abdul?). And, again, if you want to propose other peolple, please do so! But I ask you to make a list of people for whom a free non-copyrighted image can be found. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think it's impoortant to show people like Paula Abdul and Hank Azaria because they buck Stereotypes.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, should Cecil B. DeMille even be here? Yes, his mother was a Sephardi, but was he a Sephardi, or just someone of partial Sephardi ancestry? I mean, did he identify as a Jew (whatever the sense) and specifically a Sephardi? The Ogre (talk) 19:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This image of his grave site tends to indicate that he did not identify as a Jew [1].--Ѕandahl 19:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It's clearly debatable... I don't see a problem with it since Sephardi judiasm is also a heritage.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but if someone, independent of heritage, clearly states, "I am not a Jew", then that person should not be pushed to the front row. The Ogre (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
You're the one who put the final image together. Change it. Are you looking for suggestions?--Dr who1975 (talk) 13:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
David Ricardo looks like a good possibility. Admittedly, he became a Unitarian but unlike DeMille, both his parent's were Sephardic. His picture is also public domain. It'd be nice to replace DeMille with a 20th century figure but choices are limited.--Dr who1975 (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

.......Umm I'm not sure Cecil B. DeMille is really Sephardi. I just looked at his article and it says his mother was the child of German Jewish parents. Unless if they were from the tiny Portuguese community in Hamburg, they were most likely western Ashkenazi Jews. User: Afghan Historian

Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo are good possibilities and both images are public domain.--Ѕandahl 19:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal - 18 pictures[edit]

Well... I'll try do some new version, including Ricardo, Lazarus and Cardoso. Regarding Petruclej proposals:

  • Rabi Ovadia - Iraqui Mizrahim
  • Enrico Macias - Algerian Sephardi - no picture available
  • Yehoram Gaon - Israli Sephardi - no picture available
  • Ofra Haza - Yemenite Mizrahim
  • Elias Canetti - Bulgaria Sephardi - picture available - will do
  • Siegfried Sassoon - Baghdadi Mizrahim
  • Carl Djerassi - mother Austrian Ashkenazi and father Bulgarian Sephardi - no picture available
  • Edmond Safra - Lebanese Sephardi - no picture available
  • Emma Lazarus and Benjamin Cardozo - ok as said above

So, I'm doing a new version with some more people. Then you'll let me know what you think. See you soon. The Ogre (talk) 21:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh! And I'm removinc Cecil B. DeMille because of doubts regarding his ethnic affiliation - if there are any doubts then it's best no to present him in the front row of Sephardim....! The Ogre (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Also there is Bernard Baruch, Sephardi mother, Ashkenazi father, contemporary figure. Available image is PD.--Ѕandahl 22:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't see you message Ѕandahl! And had already done the new picture, it's the one below and on the article (I changed the previous version in the Commons).

It includes:

Okay. I'm getting sick and tired of these stupid pictures of Jews. What the hell are these sad , dull pictures? LOL Is this how we Jews are gonna honor our achievements? I'm a Jew from an Ashkenazi mother and Scots-Irish backround from my father. And I gotta say that I'm not proud of the current Wikipedia pictures. So I've already layed down the foundation from some acceptable Jewish figures. I want the American Jewish ethnicity to AMAZE. When I'm gonna go on Wikipedia and see the people we represent -- everybody should be like WOWWW. How can such a small nation REPRESENT SO MUCH GOOD, COLOR, SO MUCH LIGHT, SO MUCH BLESSINGS.Even more from a minority group within Judaism like the Sephardim(Only 2 million Sephardim and yet so much power) I want our achievements to be A SLAP IN THE FACE to all the ignorant people out there. You know what the Talmud says my dear Jews Success is the greatest revenge but I can't do this by myself. Because I don't know how to get the damn authorization for the pictures . I'M PRETTY SURE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF YOU IN HERE HAS THE ABILITY TO DO IT. TAKE YOUR TIME MY FELLOWS. BUT ONE THING FOR SURE , TWO THINGS FOR CERTAIN -- THE CURRENT JEWISH PICTURES ARE UNACCEPTABLE IN RELEVANCE TO THE AMOUNT OF CONTRIBUTIONS WE REPRESENT IN the WORLD.

SO HERE IS MY LIST. = )

Sephardi Jews
File:Mosaic Jewish Pictures Selection.jpg
A picture of Sephardic Jews

I hope it's to everyones liking! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I miss Paula Abdul--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Wel... yes, and I do admit there aren't that many women in the ensemble, however I did leave her out because there are some doubts if she is a Shepardi or a Mizrahi, being from Syria she could be either. The Ogre (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a simple proposal if you are in search for a woman: include Rita Levi-Montalcini, Nobel prize winner for medecine in 1986 and Italian life senator. And please, forget about Paula Abdul. Petruclej (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I welcome the new list and breathe a sigh of relief at the disappearance of Paula Abdul, not because she is Syrian, but her presence among these personalities looks like a joke. Let's put political correctness aside, please. BTW, what about the famous spy, Eli Cohen, Egyptian Jew? After all, many Egyptian Jews are Sephardim (though I hate the difference Sephardi/Mizrahi). Petruclej (talk) 16:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The image of Eli Cohen is non-free like many others.--Ѕandahl 16:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are some more proposals:

  • Emilio Segre - physicist, Nobel Prize (1959)
  • Salvador Luria - Italian, microbiologist, Nobel Prize (1969)
  • Rita Levi-Montalcini - Italian, 1986 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
  • Franco Modigliani - Italian, economist, Nobel Prize (1985)
  • Primo Levi - Italian, chemist and author
  • Cesare Lombroso - Italian, criminologist
  • Amedeo Modigliani - Italian, painter
  • Camille Pissarro - French, painter
  • Simon Sebag-Montefiore, British, writer
  • Nissim de Camondo - French, banker, a Paris arts museum is named after him
  • Benedict Mallah - Greek, doctor, French President's Nicolas Sarkozy paternal grandfather

Another proposal: Elias Canetti, Nobel prize winning author (born in Bulgaria)

There is also the intriguing possibility of Theodore Herzl himself having Sephardic roots (http://ha-historion.blogspot.com/2007/04/binyamin-zeev-theodore-herzl-sephardic.html). Petruclej (talk) 14:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

  • The images at the bottom look stretched, which is, well, tacky. Also, the picture size should be consistent overall. Should we try to change it? FunkMonk (talk) 10:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe you have forgotten Niels Bohr, the authentic father of Quantum Physic and its most important theoric (yes, Bohr was right and Eisntein not). I hope you add soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slavanthropos (talkcontribs) 05:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Not one mention of the 1066 massacres of Jews in Granada (and others in Spain) by Moslems[edit]

That's an interesting "omission" by the Free Encylopedia. J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.28.112 (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Language correction: The Sephardim of Istanbul (and those of all the cities of Turkey) do not use Portuguese but Judeo-Spanish, and actually a variety of it that is quite close to Castilian. There were roughly two dialect groups of Judeo-Spanish in the Ottoman empire: In Salonika and some Balkan cities they used a variety that has some features close to Portuguese, like the retention of initial "f" instead of "h", although oterhwise it is Castilian and mutually easily understandable with therest, while in Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey the phonemes are basically those of 16th century Castilian (except for the s-z which is a complicated matter

"Without walls"'s revisions[edit]

1. "Without Walls" keeps inserting a paragraph speculating about Iranian influence on the Jews of Sardis, and claiming that the Sephardim are in fact descended from these. First, this is an article about Spanish Jews, not about the intellectual origins of Judaism in general, so this is completely irrelevant. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence for this claim of descent, except the name. Yes, it is always possible, as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". But an encyclopaedia is meant to be about facts that are verifiable; not claims that may or may not be true but about which there is no evidence one way or the other. Nothing is more common in the history of ethnic groups than for a name for one place or tribe to be applied centuries later to a completely different place or tribe for contemporary reasons: that does not imply any link. For example, the Avesta speaks of a tribe "sairima" (Sarmatians), and the Shah Nameh applies the derived name "Salm" to European peoples generally. Is that really evidence that all European peoples are descended from the Sarmatians? Or that the Iberians of Spain are really descended from the Iberians of the Caucasus? Or that the American State of Georgia is populated by Georgians from the Caucasus?

The fact that the name "Sepharad" may have originally referred to Sardis is worth mentioning in itself. But it is already there in an earlier paragraph, on Definition. That is not justification for including a disquisition on the Jews of Sardis (if indeed there were any). Similarly medieval rabbis used "Zarephath" for France, though in the original Biblical context it almost certainly meant "Sarepta" near Sidon. Does that mean that the French Jews are descended from ancient Jewish communities of the Lebanon, or that the article should discuss the influence of ancient Phoenicia on Judaism as a whole?

2. Secondly, he keeps inserting a paragraph on the legislation of Ezra as a precursor to the Visigothic laws against the Jews, and justifies this by pointing out that Christianity is built on Judaism. Again, that is not relevant to the subject of this article, which is about Spanish Jews, not the whole comparative history of the two religions. Also, the analogy is misconceived. The people against whom Ezra was legislating were claiming to be part of the Jewish community, and Ezra was trying to exclude them and impose permanent separation. The Jews in Visigothic Spain had no wish to be Christians, but the legislation was trying forcibly to include them in the Christian community, by banning Jewish practices and placing practising Jews under severe disabilities (including temporary separation) until they conformed. That both sets of legislation included a bar on intermarriage does not affect the fact that the fundamental object was different. Judaism, unlike Christianity, has no mission to convert the heathen.

In short, these insertions are both unsourced and irrelevant, and I shall continue to revert them whenever they are made. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Jews currently in Portugal[edit]

The article says some 500 Jews live currently in Portugal. However, this number is totally at odds with the most recent Portuguese census (2001), where 1773 persons identified themselves as Jews. Note that, according to Portuguese law, the question on religion was not asked to anyone under 15 (which limited it to 84% of the population) and respondents could decline to answer (8% did). This allows us to put the Portuguese Jewish community undoubtly above 2000 people. I wonder if the data presented by the American Jewish Year Book (the source used in this article) is based on Synagogue attendance... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gazilion (talkcontribs) 10:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The previous figure (1773) was obtained adding the results from the 7 regional census. A separate document (http://www.ine.pt/ngt_server/attachfileu.jsp?look_parentBoui=380027&att_display=n&att_download=y, page 216) yields a slightly different number (1740), and indicates an estimate for the entire population: a little over 2500. Gazilion (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction[edit]

There is a significant Jewish population in Serbia also, quite larger than in sorrounding Balkan states. In Belgrade, Novi Sad and Subotica there are more Jews than in FYR Macedonia or Bosnia and Herzegovina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colossus1167 (talkcontribs) 16:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sephardim in Morocco[edit]

hello, I just changed the figure in the infobox for Sephardim in Morocco from 5,500 to 2-3,000. My reasoning: there are today around 4,000-5,000 Jews in Morocco (the figure might have been 5,500 a decade ago), but not all of them are Sephardic. Sephardim have been always the small but influent upper class of Moroccan Jews, the rest being Arabic-speaking and Berber-speaking Jews, who do not identify as Sephardim. In Israel, the latter are called Mizrahim, and the definition of Sephardim in this article clearly distinguishes both groups (also commonly all western Mizrahim Jews are called Sephardim as opposed to Ashkenazim, but this use is not proposed nor followed in the present WP:article). So, although we do not know, how many of the Jews living in Morocco are Sephardim, it cannot be all of them (although maybe a majority, as mostly lower classes emigrated to Israel). 2-3,000 is of course an OR estimation, but it's not worse than the unsourced 5,500 figure, which cannot refer to Sephardim in the last decade.

The same is true for Tunisia: there cannot be 2,000 Sephardim, if the modern figure for Tunisian Jews is around 1,500 and although there are in fact Sephardim in Tunisia, besides the Mizrahim, any figure is just a guess. Let's put 1,000.

As for Portugal, I put the official estimation given in the Census of Portugal of 2003 suggested by Gazilion (see above). The census number is around 1.700, but an official estimation is added, which gives 2.500. At least one sourced figure!--Ilyacadiz (talk) 18:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


"Sephardim have been always the small but influent upper class of Moroccan Jews" - fallacy. In Israel, most of the Moroccan last names are of Sephardic origin (like Peretz, Suissa, Biton, Toledano, etc). northern Moroccon Jews are purely of Sephardic origin. So I think we should include only the Jews who live in northern Morocco in this article. -- 22:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.37.170 (talk)

Ilyacadiz, I do not agree, this kind of original assertions are being heard from people with very clear racist POV against North African Jews (I'm not blaming you to be one, just trying to explain were these falsely notions usually came from). That is to say, one of the most common same line assertions that are used to excuse why North African Jews are very successful in Europe while they had hard time in Israel is that the "Elite" or North African Jewery immigrated to Europe instead of Israel. This is of course harshly falsely: about 400 thousnds North Africans have immigrated to Europe and 600 thousnds to Israel. Meaning that at the least 40% of North African Jewery have immigrated to Europe. I have never heard on an "elite" group that contain 40% of the population. There is no one single source that can objectively support such groundless assertions.

As for the origin of Maroccan Jews. The Spanish government guided the Spanish Ministry of the Interior that Jews of Northen African origin (besides Egyptian and probably Lybian Jews)have to prove that they lived in Spain 5 years and not 10 to be eligible to a Spanish citizenship. That is, the Spanish authorities consider any Northen African Jew to be descended from Sephardim. Berber Jews are only consist 1-2% of North African Jewery. The reason for which Maroccan Jews from Northen Marocco better preserved Ladino is simply because Northen Marocco is closer to Spain and its non Jewish ethnic composition is different and include many non Arabic inhabitants. In many essences Jewery of North Afirca was established after the explusion of Sephardic Jews (even Lybia Jewery was strongly affected, for instance, the renewer of Halactik life in Lybia was the great Sephardic Rabbincal scholastic and Kabbalist Rabbi Shimon Lavy who was expelled from Spain). Also, genetic research strongly support for no difference between Northen Maroccans and rest Jewery of Marroco. --Gilisa (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

No Nobel winners in the mosaic[edit]

I found it a bit bothering that there is not even one Sepharadic Nobel winner in the Mosaic. I think we must change it (let's agree on about adding at least two). Here are few possible suggestions:

1. Baruj Benacerraf
2. Elias Canetti (*)
3. Claude Cohen-Tannoudji
4. Rita Levi-Montalcini
5. Salvador Luria
6. Emilio G. Segrè
7. Franco Modigliani


(*)photo is needed --Gilisa (talk) 10:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

No Nobel winners? What's more pressing is why there is just one woman? Chesdovi (talk) 12:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I didn't notice that because I was focused on this issue (in compare to other photoboxes). These both issues are pressing. We should add Rita Levi-Montalcini and another one or two Nobek winners (Claude Cohen-Tannoudji and Baruj Benacerraf are my favorits). Besideds we should include additional 2-3 women. To do that we have to add a line to the Mosaic as I found no one that I want out of it as it's.--Gilisa (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

POV[edit]

Not that I'm unsympathetic, but isn't a phrase like "The best we can perhaps hope for", used in the article with reference to survival of dialects, against Wikipedia style? - Jmabel | Talk 16:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

A majority of the Iberian Jews chose to become conversos. Some must have decided to actually convert - it is improbable that all wanted to remain secret Jews. So the suggestion that it was only for "historical reasons and circumstances" that many never returned to the faith must be false. As genuine Catholics they did not remain Jews "hidden ever since the Inquisition".Royalcourtier (talk) 07:53, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Strictly speaking we do not know how much Jews lived in Spain, how much were expelled, how much chose to convert. We have widely different estimations. So maybe a majority chose to become converses, and this is the opinion of many experts, and maybe no according to others. It's not like they had a statistical office or polls at the time. Benjil (talk) 06:31, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Peru[edit]

In Peru most of it's 3000 jews are ashkenazim, not sephardim.--Enkiduk (talk) 17:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

www.sephardim.com[edit]

This website is archived by the HARVARD UNIVERSITY LIBRARY SYSTEM. Surnames like Romero have a Sephardic history the Catholic Church notes. cited reference "6a) Reports the names of people who appeared before the inquisition in the New Spain.(~)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.211.138 (talk) 05:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this whole issue, of the edits forcibly repetead by 75.89.211.138, and 58.105.107.24, and 173.186.34.68, and 174.130.180.132, 3 questions arise:
  1. You insist in inserting the word spanish in the template (Hebrew: ספרדי‎) making it appear as (Hebrew: "spanish",ספרדי‎). This is in direct contradiction with the objectives and general uses of this template. Even if you want to say that ספרדי means Spanish in modern Hebrew, this is not the place to do it, and furthermore ספרדי means "Sephardi", refering to the Jews of or with origin in the whole of the Iberian Peninsula, that, as everyone knows, includes not only Spain, but also Portugal (not to mention Andorra, Gibraltar and French Cerdagne).
  2. For the surname Mena, you use the source Ancestry.com - not a credible source, and one that even you do not defend or mention, since it is a Self-published and questionable source, that only states that "Mena" is "Spanish and Jewish (Sephardic): habitational name from Mena, in Castile and León provinces" (even if, in contradiction, it says that the Top Place of Origin for Mena in the US is Ireland more than Spain).
  3. For the surname Romero, you use the source Sephardim.com,not a credible source but another case of Self-published and questionable sources (that, in any case, does not say these are Sephardi Jewish surnames, but, refering to the sources it presents, say that the "authors of these works have identified the names as being held by Sephardim."), that you claim to be credible because:
    1. "it has Catholic church records, letters and archives about Spehardic Jews by Harry Stein" (And this means what? It is still a self-pulished compilation!).
    2. "is archived by the Harvard University Library System" (This does not mean it is endorsed by Harvard University; that is just the server that lodges this self-pulished and non-peer-reviewed research!).
Furthermore, regarding the surmames, the fact that they may have been used by some Sephardi Jews does not make them Sephardi surnames! If it was so, you would have to consider "Sephardic pedigrees" (or any other Jewish pedigree) any surname ever used by a Jew. This sections refers to surnames or lineages that are specifically Sephardi (that is why one finds a link to De Castro family (Sephardi Jewish), even if "Castro is not in origin Jewish but an Iberian Christian name, adopted by some Portuguese and Spanish Jews after the forced conversions of the late 15th and early 16th centuries", as it says in the article). You see, after the forced conversions most Jews in Iberia adopted Iberian Christian names. This does not make this names Jewish, unless they refer to a specific and identifiable lineage or family. Otherwise, you would have to consider the huge majority of Portuguese, Catalan and Castilian surnames as Sephardi.
So, please, stop pushing your unsourced POV, or else be considered a vandal. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 18:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Mena, I never added, so please stop making things up. Sephardim.com is very credible because Harvard archives it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.211.138 (talk) 02:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Well... you did, as can be seen, for example, in this diff. And you are not presenting a case for your reasons. Re-stating the same arguments after they've been debunked won't get far. The Ogre (talk) 10:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I've searched for "sephardim.com" in ALL the Harvard University sites (see here), and it did not match any documents (even when the search covers "web pages that have not been approved by Harvard and do not represent the views of Harvard."). The Ogre (talk) 10:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You know, I don't think you did any researching. You claim to know many things, while against Wiki rules, you delete postings by claiming they are not factual. You have not debunked anything, but display contentious arguments from your opinions as if they are factual. This is no way to behave. This isn't the only wiki page you have deleted items even when one cites information. You should familiarise yourself with the Wiki rules. Let us see what they say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.18.92.18 (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I have contacted Harry Stein the creator of www.sephardim.com. Let him answer your comments about his website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.17.175.136 (talk) 05:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Advertising?[edit]

I took the following sentence off from the section on Medical Genetics:

"See also Jewish Genetics Center about testing."

Looked like an advertisement for some Non-Profit in Chicago. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

PhnxFyreG (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"Abuse of the term"?[edit]

In the infobox it claims that the number of Sephardi Jews in various countries is unknown due to "abuse of the term". This strikes me as potentially violating NPOV. At the very least, it requires some clarification. How is the term abused? By whom? Who considers it abused, and why? Are there any estimates despite such "abuse"? Are there people there who claim to be Sephardi and are not?--in that case they would need to at least be mentioned. --N-k (talk) 13:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Since no one has answered my question, I am changing the phrase "number unknown due to abuse of the term" to "number unknown". If anyone has any better ideas, please post them here. --N-k (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, N-k, here is the deal. The term 'Sephardi' is sorely abused as it has somehow come to designate all non-Ashkenazi Jews, particularly Mizrahim, and not only the Jews of Iberian peninsula pedigree as it should be. In other words, when you hear the number of Sephardim in a given country, it doesn't mean Sephardim per se, but Oriental/Middle Eastern people who have no connection with the Sephardim, either genetic or ritual. One source even counts Georgian Jews as Sephardim! Only Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan Jews are Sephardim, and their number is indeed unknown. - Mambi69

Okay, but if you want to make that claim in the article you need reliable sources. Additionally, the word "abuse" (when dealing with words and names) is very strong and subjective. --N-k (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
There is a great source for this in the book "Sacred treasure the Cairo Genizah" by Mark Glickman p15-17. Feeling lazy and not quite in the mood to add it in myself. Acidskater (talk) 03:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I added Romania, sephardic community in Bucharest[edit]

I added Romania as Romania is a Latin speaking country of mixed Dacian-Roman descent and speak a Latin language. Sephardic Studies also lists a Sephardic community there from Southern Romania http://www.sephardicstudies.org/romania.html . My family was one of them that came over from Southern Romania and we followed Sephardic customs, family left in 1905 which is about the time much of the Sephardic community left but I am sure there are still some left from Turkey and Greece.

Sepharad - Biblic place?[edit]

"Sepharad" is the Hebrew word for "Hesperia", which Romans used as "Hispania". Both words were used to name the Iberian Peninsula during the Roman Empire. We could say "Sepharad" is literaly "Spain". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.110 (talk) 02:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sephardim and Mizrahim section[edit]

I added POV tag and request for sources for the arguments made in the above mentioned section. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources to back them, so said Wikipedia guidelines, but not single source was provided to support the idea that Marrocan Jews are the most unhappy non Ashkenazi Jewish group with being refereed to as "Mizrahim" because it doesn't make sense geographically. I know that they are unhappy with that because they are mostly decedents of Sephardim -but I will make no such argument without source. Same for Jews of Turkish origin, who even said that they are being refereed to as "Mizeahim"? And who said that Syrian Jews (who are genetically similar to Ashkenazim btw) are decedents of Sephardim as well? Who said that the use in the term "Arab Jews" is very limited for political reasons? You will find many in Israel who feel that this term is just being racist and incorrect. Who said that Jews from Africa are not Sephardim-as the one (or more?)) who written edited this section specifically indicated? The massive concentration of Jews in Africa was of North African Jews who are by the very most of them-Sephardim. They mostly don't speak Ladino - but that doesn't mean that they are not decedents of Sephardim...In short, the way the section is edited make it look bad and full of prejudices.--Gilisa (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

It strongly seems the "Mizrachi" category doesn't have any cultural or ethnic base. It is indeed inaccurate to put Moroccan Jews in the Mizrahi category because most Moroccan Jews and Algerian Jews as well as Turkish Jews and Greek Jews are classed as Sephardi Jews and to another extent Syrian Jews and without forgetting Jews of Alexandria/Cairo (Egypt). If you want to change some things Gilisa you can any moderator. Ekarfi 13:34 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekarfi13 (talkcontribs)

What is your source for your claim that Algerian Jews are actually the descendants of Jews from Spain? Jayjg (talk) 03:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Ekarf13 has again inserted the claim that Algerian Jews are actually the descendants of Jews from Spain, based on this source. The source does say that Spanish Jews went to Algeria, and imposed twelve "taqqanot" or "fixes" which revised the laws of marriage and inheritance. However, it also states that there were only six families in Algiers identified as being of Spanish origin. Can Ekarfi13 explain the basis for his more general claim? Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Actually the term "family" in the source means "clans" not a "family" in the modern day sense. A clan is composed of several families and they all share the same surname. The names mentionned in the source consist of some of the largest important clans of the city at that time , so no there weren't only 'six" families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.96.98 (talkcontribs)
1) Ekarfi13, login when you edit. 2) What is your source for the specific claim that Algerian Jews are actually the descendants of Jews from Spain? Jayjg (talk) 02:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

1) Ok 2) What do you repeat yourself? Yes they do descend partially from Spanish Jews , like many Jews around the Mediterranean. point. Ekarfi

I repeat myself because you're still not logging in, and you're still not providing sources for you claims. If you stop doing that, then I won't have to repeat myself. Jayjg (talk) 22:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect grammar[edit]

Ekarfi13 keeps changing the sentence

Moroccan and other North African Jews are sometimes known as "Maghrebim", and are closely associated with the Sephardim proper

to

Moroccan and other North African Jews (which are sometimes known as "Maghrebim") are closely associated with the Sephardim proper

This is clearly incorrect grammar; as Ekarfi13 is obviously not a native English speaker, I don't expect him to know that, but I'm not clear why he keeps reverting to his ungrammatical version. I've now changed it to

Moroccan and other North African Jews (sometimes known as "Maghrebi Jews") are closely associated with the Sephardim proper

because I think Ekarfi13 was very concerned about ensuring the material was in parentheses. Can he explain his edits? Jayjg (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

As a side note, I think it is best to use parenthesis rarely. Either the point is important enough to be actually in a sentence or it is unimportant and can be safely removed. --Bruce Hall (talk) 02:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite the opening sentence?[edit]

Speaking of parenthesis, the opening sentence has a very long parenthetical language comment, so long that the actual sentence gets lost. I had a hard time finding it. Can we shorten the language bit or move it to someplace else? Maybe I can see what I can do. --Bruce Hall (talk) 02:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

"Significant populations" in infobox[edit]

The infobox has an area for "significant populations". For some reason, an editor keeps adding all sorts of countries to it, so that "significant populations" include as few as 20 people, perhaps five families. In addition, this makes the infobox very long - with all those countries added, it covers the lede, table of contents, and three more sections! Even worse, none of it is sourced - in part, no doubt, because of the differing definitions of what a "Sephardi Jew" is (the primary question being does one include Mizrahi Jews). What constitutes a "significant population", and how many countries should be added? Jayjg (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Related category nominated at CFD[edit]

__meco (talk) 17:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

infobox mosaic[edit]

I uploaded another mosaic since the other one was deleted for CR issues. It's totally discussable if anyone want to discuss it, please do it here. - Dzlinker (talk) 23:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

  • I suppose it doesn't really matter, but is there any particular reason that most of the people listed are Algerian born French? Personally, I think it should just a little more diversity than that. --99.38.186.92 (talk) 02:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

infobox pic -->> see tp[edit]

The newly proposed picture is in addition to its bad quality, a copyright vio, no consensus about them being arab jews was, some are sephardo-ashkenaze (Mélanie Laurent case). Please keep it with the "pure" Sephardim, and with good quality pictures, with no copyright violation. Cheers all. - Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 20:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

If you want to extend the list i propose Line Monty, Jenifer Dadouche and Bernard-Henri Lévy. -Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 20:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Why no women at all? That is something that must be remedied asap. Are there politicians? At least one would be nice. Debresser (talk) 06:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree, there must be at least one woman. And I also think the collage should include more people. Who would like to suggest some? Yambaram (talk) 21:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
That is something I disagree with, 9 is enough. Debresser (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Ugh okay I'm not going to argue about this, but you said a woman should be added/replace someone from there ("asap"), so do you want to suggest one? Yambaram (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Risking to sound racist or sexist, but I can't think of any Sephardic women for the infobox. Debresser (talk) 07:11, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I was going to add the woman Eydie Gormé instead of Claude Cohen-Tannoudji, who is already found at the section "List of Nobel laureates", but then I found out that it's much more complicated... The collage is actually this picture file, and not a collection of photos, as opposed to other infoboxes. So it's going to take a lot of work now to remove this photo and bring a photo for each individual there. Yambaram (talk) 13:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
The real question is why no Israeli ? Most of Sefaradi Jews today live in Israel but the ones in the info box pic are or dead for centuries or French. There is no shortage of famous Israeli Sefaradim, be it in politics or culture, fashion, academics, or business.Benjil (talk) 15:11, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I am not really picky about the number of photos in the mosaic, but the size of the mosaic should not grow. That means that when you want 12 or even sixteen photos in it, the size of each individual photo should be significantly reduced. More women is a good idea. The Banner talk 15:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I restyled the collage in the same way as on the other similar pages like Ashkenazi Jews, French Jews, British Jews, German Jews, Israeli Jews etc. It includes people from different fields of activity and from different countries. It also includes three women. --Off-shell (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

And you were reverted for making major changes without and against consensus. Please note that there is no consensus for 15 people. Why do you add all those completely unknown people, and remove the know ones? No sir, you first discuss, and then you edit. Debresser (talk) 21:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
OK. I put the collage here for discussion. It includes prominent people from Spain, France, UK, Italy, Israel, The Netherlands, USA, Bulgaria. It tries to cover different fields of activity: literature, arts, science, politics, philosophy, law, business, music, economics. I chose three women. They are less prominent but I think many editors here agree that one should show some distinguished women. The collage can be easily edited.
Benjamin Disraeli
Baruch Spinoza
Camille Pissarro
Elias Canetti
Rita Levi-Montalcini
Jacques Derrida
Maimonides
Yasmin Levy
David Ricardo
Moses Montefiore
Eydie Gormé
Emilio Gino Segrè
René Cassin
Amedeo Modigliani
Peter Sellers

--Off-shell (talk) 21:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I have to admit I don't know most of the new ones, with the exception of Benjamin Disraeli and Moses Montefiore. But I did know Alain Chabat and Patrick Bruel from the old infobox. Debresser (talk) 21:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
The collage was designed to show as much diversity as possible in terms of geography, occupation and gender, while also trying to select most prominent figures wherever possible. It should not include more than one or two musicians and more than one or two actors. Peter Sellers seems to be a more prominent figure than Alain Chabat (at least for now), but I may be wrong on that. Another candidate would be Sasha Baron Cohen. Eydie Gorme and Yasmin Levy are less prominent than Patrick Bruel, but replacing them would reduce the female faction and also "loose" either USA or Israel.
As for the other persons, their pages explain what they did. E.g. Rita Levi-Montalcini, a life scientist, is a Nobel laureate which is very rare for women. Emilio Segrè is also a Nobel laureate who discovered antiproton, this is a truly fundamental discovery in physics. Modigliani and Pissarro belong to the most brilliant painters in the history. Elias Canetti is a Nobel laureate in literature born in Bulgaria. David Ricardo is a father of modern economical science. René Cassin is a lawyer who got a Nobel Peace prize for drafting the Declaration of Human Rights. --Off-shell (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Too many Nobel laureates for one infobox. :) Debresser (talk) 22:47, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I think you mean it would be good to have at least one big modern "pop star". So let's put Patrick Bruel instead of Eydie Gorme. OK? --Off-shell (talk)
That is more or less what I had in mind, yes. Good idea. Debresser (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the images should be placed in chronological order of birth? -- Avi (talk) 17:51, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I think a collage is not something for chronological order. For that, one would place the images in a row. The very meaning of the collage is to show the diversity alternating old and young, men and women, different fields of activity etc. --Off-shell (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough; thanks. -- Avi (talk) 19:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)