Talk:Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky

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Former good article nominee Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
August 20, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed
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Notes[edit]

The original version of this article is adapted from public domain text at http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/gorskii.html , accessed on 27 January 2004.

Information about new color composites quoted from public domain text at http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/prokhtml/prokcolor.html , accessed on 12 October 2004.

Color printing[edit]

The information that Prokudin-Gorskii didn't have color printing method seems wrong. He used color printing method "carbo", published number of color postcards and had color printing company. Two of his color prints are published in the Svetlana Garanina's excellent biography article at: http://www.prokudin-gorsky.ru/downloads.shtml It contains some other details and corrections relative to LOC's exposition biography.

Honza

Gallery[edit]

This page is becoming a photo gallery. In future, people can go to the commons site if they want to view all these pictures, and I reccomend only a selection be shown in the actual page. Dave 11:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Self-referencing[edit]

This article contains a lot of self-references. I'm thinking of the Gallery header, which should be removed or reworked entirely, and List of photographs, which is entirely self-referencing and even wikilinks to a category within the article. What do you think? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 00:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Source for high-res pictures[edit]

From where are the hi-resolution versions of theimages taken? The LOC on-line exhibit doesn't seem to have any pictures at such a high resolution. 70.226.144.242 03:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

ah, I see. I guess I just wasn't looking hard enough: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/p?pp/prok:@band(color+rendering) has resonably high resolutions for a lot of the pictures. 70.226.144.242 03:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA nomination[edit]

I failed this GA because, if it's supposed to be some kind of biography, it's just a stub. I'm not failing it based on length, but on information. The only information in here is about his photography; no biological, early life, relationship info. Also several small, but important things:

  • The first image caption says it's a self-portrait. That makes it sound like it was a painting. I did a double-take when I read that.
  • The other image looks like it should be in the Techniques section, but...
  • The Techniques and Photography section could be easily merged...although that's pretty much the whole article.
  • References only go directly after periods or commas, not in the middle of sentences.

--Dark Kubrick 19:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


List of photographs[edit]

Moved from article page. Prokudin-Gorskii's photos appear in the Category:Prokudin-Gorskii images and the following articles:

Sochi | Gagra | Lugano | Staritsa | Ostashkov | Torzhok | Kem (town) | Vladikavkaz | Ufa | Kirillo-Belozersky Monastery | Vorotynsky | Volga-Baltic Waterway | Trans-Siberian Railway | Lavr Proskuryakov | Dimitry of Rostov | Vladimir | Ladoga | Bacchá | Uglich | Zubtsov | Pederasty | Prisoner of war | World War I | Kostroma | Alim Khan | Itchan Kala | Mozhaysk | Belozersk | Polotsk | Still life | Rostov | Solovki | Solovetsky Monastery | Dagestan | Yurt | Windmill | Samarkand | Uzbek | Tajiks | Smolensk | Cathedral of the Assumption, Smolensk | Kremlin | Daugavpils | Rzhev | Lake Sterzh | Sterzh Cross | Karelia | Borjomi | Tobolsk | Tyumen | Zlatoust | Petrozavodsk | Lodeinoe Pole | Poppy | Melon | Emir | Lake Ladoga | Chusovaya | Tian Shan | Chechenya | Tea | Cotton | Electrical generator | History of Siberia | Hookah -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.4.133.250 (talkcontribs) 21:28, 3 October 2006.

Whilst not really appropriate on the article page (The Wikimedia Commons link is a better route to more Prokudin-Gorskii photos), there is no harm in maintaining this list of related articles on the talk page. -- Solipsist 20:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
At the moment I can't find the appropriate section of the Manual of Style or other guidelines, but User:Jobjörn was basically correct that Wikipedia articles should avoid self references. That is to say this article is really about Prokudin-Gorskii, so this list of articles is more about the structure of Wikipedia not Prokudin-Gorskii's life. That is to say there is no particular reason that a reader interested in Prokudin-Gorskii would also be interested in reading about Sochi.
The one benefit they do provide is a means for readers to find more examples of Prokudin-Gorskii's photos. But that is more concisely acheived with the Commons link to Commons:Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii at the top of the External links section. -- Solipsist 21:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Exposure time[edit]

One thing that may be of interest and IMHO we should mention is what sort of exposure time are we talking about here? Obviously it's going to depend a lot of the conditions and I would assume it would be about 3x normal exposure times for those days but many people would probably have no idea what that would be. Nil Einne 16:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This is what P-G claims in his letter to Leo Tolstoi
At this time, now that the process of taking photographs using my method and my plates requires from one to three seconds, I permit myself to ask your permission for me to visit for one or two days (keeping in mind the state of your health and the weather), thereby in order to take several color pictures of you and your spouse...
Later he mentions 20 seconds exposure due to weather conditions. Exposing through color filter takes significandly longer than exposure without filter and red filter took about twice as long as the other two separations. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/prokhtml/prokcompos.html compute exposure time based on moon movement during the separations, result is over minute. --Honza (talk) 14:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the ghosting caused people who are most likely walking, at animals like cats, horses etc., and at the smoke from factory chimneys the combined exposure time of the three images cannot have been longer than a few seconds on a sunny day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.183.16.154 (talk) 16:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Photo gallery[edit]

That guy's photographs look newer than the captions say they are. I think the color might have been added on later. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scott Gall (talkcontribs) 05:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

From some points of view you are right the color were really added in 2000s. Please read the article carefuly. --Li-sung 14:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The photos aren't as impressive knowing that a photographer spent "six to seven hours to align, clean and color-correct" each photo. Is there anywhere where we can see what the photos originally looked like? 76.121.211.59 (talk) 17:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Unretouched color composite
"Digichromatography" version
You can compare this raw, unadjusted (I've double-checked by experiment) composite of the Emir of Bukhara's portrait (top, original glass plate negative also shown but digitally inverted into a positive) with the painstakingly adjusted version currently used in the present article (bottom) to get some idea of the typical overhauling. It's the sort of work that might reasonably be done to spruce up any deteriorated or defective color snapshot in a family photo album, or an old oil painting, for that matter, and nothing that really crosses over the line into falsification or guesswork. Purplish color cast corrected, areas of uneven color due to emulsion damage or deterioration locally adjusted to even them out, spots and other small blemishes removed by retouching, density and contrast curve optimized, with a bit of "blooming" in the very brightest colors as a consequence of increased contrast, but no color that wasn't really there in 1911.
The cleaned and polished version is probably more like what P-G would have seen on a ground glass focusing screen in his camera, while the raw version, minus the local damage due to later deterioration, is probably fairly close to what the Tsar would have seen projected on a screen at one of P-G's presentations at the palace. The exact color balance and saturation would have depended on the balance and saturation of the color filters used in the projector and the evenness of its lighting. If the projector offered some means of adjusting the relative brightness of each component, an unwanted color cast like the purplish tone in this image could have been reduced or eliminated. Some color correction was also possible when printing the negatives to make the glass positives that were actually projected, and many digital image editing procedures are simply the quick, easy and less detectable modern equivalents of low-tech manual adjustment and retouching techniques available a hundred years ago.
Where the "digichromatography" treatment does cross the line into historical revisionism, IMHO, is when it "corrects" color fringes caused by subject motion—slight changes in posture, involuntarily twitching fingers, clothing agitated by a passing breeze—by stretching and twisting small areas of one or more of the color components into compliance to make everything match perfectly. The Emir and his regalia appear to have held rock-steady during the exposures, so no excuse for such plastic surgery seems to have arisen in this instance. AVarchaeologist (talk) 09:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Agree. Also see WP:IMAGE#Editing_images—straightforward non-motion colour tweaks and other cleanup is allowed ("best judgment"). Except here it is outside image experts rather than unvetted WPdians doing the manipulations. No matter who does it, these accuracy-conscious tweaks enhance encyclopedic value and are not at all misleading. Saravask 06:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Spelling[edit]

I've seen different ways of spelling Prokudin-Gorsky's full name, so I did a google search to see which way of spelling gave the most hits. Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii gave around 25,000 results, while Sergey Mikhaylovich Prokudin-Gorsky only gave about 250 hits. Even when omitting his middle name, Sergei Prokudin-Gorskii had overwhelmingly more hits than Sergey Prokudin-Gorsky. Therefore I think the name of this article should be changed into Sergei Prokudin-Gorskii.

/Cyan

Romanization of Russian names in Wikipedia is per Russian language romanization guideline. Exceptions are possible, but not based on google hits alone.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for informing me. /Cyan

Three color photography[edit]

It seems that this article should be split into article on three color photography, technique pioneered by Louis Ducos du Hauron, Adolf Miethe and others and mastered by Prokudin-Gorsky and the remainder of article about Prokudin-Gorsky life and work.

--Honza (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep. And the intro might very well state that P-G did not actually invent the three-colour process (a statement one see all over the net). As such his inclusion in the timeline over at color photography seems a bit out of place, while he's certainly interesting due to the massive volume of his work, that's about it when one examines the issue critically. 130.232.214.10 (talk) 13:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Patents[edit]

It would be interesting to read Prokudin-Gorsky's publications and fill in some details of his work. None of the journals seem to be freely available online however. I tried finding the patents mentioned in the article, and stumbled upon a bit more than I expected. Please do something to the table if it's too big here.

Number Submitted Granted Name Applicant Residency
GB 191029586  1910-12-20 1911-07-06 An Improved Method of Producing Kinematographic Pictures in Colors Serge Prokudin-Gorsky & Serge Maximowich Saint Petersburg
FR 424895  1911-01-14 1911-03-24 Méthode pour la projection de tableaux cinématographiques MM. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky & Serge de Maximowitch Russia
DE 322202  1918-11-09 1919-07-08 Elektrischer Zeitschalter Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
DE 327840  1918-11-09 1919-07-08 Vorrichtun zur Behandlung photographischer Platten mit Flüssigkeiten Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
DE 334089  1918-11-09 1919-07-08 Kopierapparat Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
DE 335138  1918-11-09 1919-07-16 Vorrichtung zum Herstellen kinematographischer Filme in natürlichen Farben Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
DE 337819  1918-11-09 1919-07-16 Photographische Kamera zur Aufnahme von Teilnegativen für Bilder in Naturfarben Serge de Prokoudine Gorsky Konnerud
DK 26698  1918-11-09 1919-07-07 Apparat til Behandling af fotografiske Plader og lignende med Vædsker Professor Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Saint Petersburg
DK 28930  1918-11-09 1919-07-07 Kopiereapparat til Fremstilling af Diapositiver Professor Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Saint Petersburg
DK 28991  1918-11-09 1921-12-03 Fotografisk Kamera til Optagelse af Delnegativer for Billeder i naturlige Farver Professor Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Saint Petersburg
DK 29042  1918-11-09 1921-12-10 Apparat til Fremstilling af farvede kinematografiske Film Professor Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Saint Petersburg
FR 500797  1919-06-18 1920-01-07 Perfectionnements apportés à la production des vues en couleurs telles notamment que celles pour projections photographiques et cinématographiques M. Serge de Prokudine-Gorsky Norway
US 1373311  1919-07-17 1921-03-29 Apparatus for the Treatment of Photographic Negatives or the like with Liquids Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
US 1413873  1919-07-17 1922-04-25 Printing Apparatus for the Production of Diapositives Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky Konnerud
US 1435283  1919-07-17 1922-11-14 Production of Colored Diapositives Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
FR 503375  1919-08-30 1920-03-16 Perfectionnements apportés aux appareils pour le traitement, par des liquides, des articles tels que les négatifs photographiques M. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Norway
FR 503376  1919-08-30 1920-03-16 Perfectionnements apportés aux appareils pour le tirage des diapositifs en couleurs M. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Norway
FR 503377  1919-08-30 1920-03-16 Perfectionnements apportés aux appareils au moyen desquels un circuit peut être fermé pendant un certain temps M. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Norway
FR 525895  1919-08-30 1921-06-17 Perfectionnements apportés aux appareils pour la photographie des couleurs, applicables à la cinématographie M. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Norway
FR 541192  1919-08-30 1922-04-28 Perfectionnements apportés aux appareils pour le tirage des diapositifs cinématographiques en couleurs M. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky Norway
US 1375175  1919-09-20 1921-04-19 Photographic Camera for Taking up Part Negatives for Naturally Colored Pictures Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
US 1412089  1919-09-20 1922-04-11 Apparatus for the Production of Colored Cinematographic Films Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Konnerud
GB 135166  1919-09-26 1921-02-24 A New or Improved Printing Apparatus for the Production of Diapositives Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky Konnerud
DE 362107 
GB 168100 
US 1443012 
1920-04-20 & 1921-01-12
1920-04-20 & 1921-01-12
1921-02-23
1921-02-25
1921-08-22
1923-01-23
Verfahren zur Herstellung von Dreifarbenphotographien

Improvements in and relating to Three-colour Photography
Three-color Photography

Sergius de Procoudine-Gorsky
Serge Michael de Procoudine-Gorsky
Serge Michael de Procoudine-Gorsky
Sutton, London
Sutton, London
Sutton, London
GB 178981  1921-02-09 1922-05-04 Improvements in and relating to Colour Photography Serge Michael Procoudine-Gorsky Sutton, London
GB 185161  1921-04-30 1922-08-30 Improvements in and relating to Optical Systems for Photographic Cameras Professor Serge Michael de Prokoudine Gorsky Sutton, London
FR 541361  1921-09-21 1923-05-01 Perfectionnements apportés à la photographie en trois couleurs, et plus particulièrement aux diapositifs cinématographiques en couleurs M. Serge Michaël de Procoudine-Gorsky Norway
CA 215991  1922-02-21 Photography Serge de Prokaudine-Gorsky
US 1456427  1922-05-11 1923-05-22 Optical System for Photographic Cameras Serge Michael de Procoudine-Gorsky Nice
FR 551758  1922-05-20 1923-01-12 Perfectionnements apportés aux systèmes optiques pour appareils photographiques M. Serge Michael de Procoudine Gorsky Alpes-Maritimes
CA 219697  1922-06-20 Printing apparatus for the production of diapositives Serge de Procoudine Gorsky
CA 219698  1922-06-20 Coloured picture camera Serge de Procoudine Gorsky
CA 219699  1922-06-20 Apparatus for the production of coloured kinematographic films Serge de Procoudine Gorsky
CA 227393  1922-12-26 Three colour photography Serge Michael Procoudin Gorsky
FR 589422 
FR 30060 
US 1709569 
GB 243338 
GB 246519 
1924-11-19
1925-01-26
1925-11-11
1925-11-10
1926-01-25
1925-02-20
1925-10-06
1929-04-16
1926-08-19
1926-09-23
Procédé d'insolubilisation de la gélatine, ses applications et produits en résultant

First addition to FR589422
Process for rendering gelatin insoluble and its application to various arts
Improvements in and relating to the Production of Photographic Gelatine Reliefs
addition to 243338

MM. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
MM. Serge de Prokoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
Professor Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
Alpes-Maritimes
Alpes-Maritimes
Nice
Nice
Nice
DE 445513  1924-12-19 Verfahren zur Herstellung von Gelatine-Reliefbildern S. Procoudine Gorsky & Cie Nice
DE 478233 
FR 622688 
US 1812981 
GB 265630 
1926-02-08
1926-02-08
1927-01-31
1927-02-07
1926-03-05
1927-03-07
1931-07-07
1928-06-07
Verfahren zur Herstellung von zur Übertragung geeigneten Bromsilbergelatinebildern durch doppelte Entwicklung

Perfectionnements aux procédés de report d'images au gélatino-bromure d'argent et leurs applications
Process for transferring gelatine silver bromide pictures
Improvements in Photographic Developing Processes more especially for use with Printing Surfaces

Société de Photochimie "Elka"
Société de Photochimie "Elka"
Michel Procoudine-Gorsky
Société de Photochimie Elka
Nice
Alpes-Maritimes
Paris
Paris
CA 260540  1926-05-11 Gelatine preparation Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky & Nicolas Pozniakow
CH 128493  1927-01-31 1928-11-01 Procédé de report d’images au gélatino-bromure d’argent Société de Photochimie Elka Nice
CH 129608  1927-07-30 1929-01-02 Procédé pour l'obtention d'une photographie en couleurs Prof. Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Cormeilles-en-Parisis
DE 489901 
GB 293038 
BE 352521 
1927-07-30
1928-06-25
1928-06-30
1928-07-01
1929-02-14
1928-07-31
Verfahren zur Herstellung von mehrfarbigen Lichtbildern, insbesondere nach dem dreifarbigen Verfahren, bei welchem die Positivbilder, nacdem sie in Jodsilber-Bilder übergeführt wurden, mit Farbstofflösungen behandelt werden

Improvements in or relating to Colour Photography
Perfectionnements relatifs à la photographie en couleurs

Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky
Professor Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky
Monsieur Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky
Cormeilles-en-Parisis
Cormeilles-en-Parisis
Cormeilles-en-Parisis
FR 656562  1928-06-27 1929-01-02 Procédé pour l'obtention d'une photographie en couleurs, sur toutes matières quelles qu'elles soient M. Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky Seine-et-Oise
CA 292081  1929-08-13 Colour photography Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky
AT 119498  1928-06-30 1930-05-15 Verfahren zur Herstellung von Farbenphotographien Serge de Procaudine-Gorsky Cormeilles-en-Parisis
FR 763539  1933-11-06 1934-02-12 Dispositif optique permettant l'obtention d'images mutiples pour la photographie et la projection MM. Serge de Procoudine-Gorsky & Michel Selentzoff & Alexis Poutiloff Seine-et-Oise

Patents by colleagues:

GB 191314142  1913-06-18 1914-02-26 Improvements in or relating to the Exhibition of Kinematographic Pictures in Natural Colours Serge Maximowitsch Saint Petersburg
FR 459467  1913-06-19 1913-09-06 Procédé pour la projection d’images cinématographiques en couleurs naturelles M. Serge Maximowitsch Russia
FR 576879  1924-02-07 1924-05-22 Procédé d'obtention d'images en couleurs naturelles sur papier, verre, ou autres surfaces M. Dimitri Procoudine-Gorsky Alpes-Maritimes

I couldn't find anything Italian even though the article claims he had patents there too. Anything feel like digging in to see if these have anything understandable? :) --Anttique (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)