Talk:Sexual harassment

Catcall redirect to wolf-whistling

I decided to be bold and changed catcall and catcalling to redirect to Wolf-whistling, per consensus from the two discussions above. I'm not all that familiar with the term, but as far as I know it means a similar thing to wolf-whistle, and has little to do with sexual harassment. -M.nelson (talk) 05:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Wolf-whistling is not completely accurate either. I'm thinking a soft-redirect to Wiktionary would be best. -- œ^™ 01:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

NPOV

This article seems to be very pro-litigation, pro-speech regulation. Gtbob12 (talk) 03:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Another Oar in the Water

I like to think of Wikipedia as an on-line source for reasonably accurate and objective information. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a big political advocate, I don't work for a think-tank. I decided to go out and read a little bit on the subject, having known several people terminated for sexual harassment, some who have filed complaints and other who have had complaints filed against them. I read the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's little web-blurb about sexual harassment and it differed in tone and statistics from other people who have participated in this discussion.

Before I go too much further, I agree with the first opinion that there should be separate pages for sexual harassment for each country. I have some friends in the United Arab Emirates who told me that in their country, a man who is found to be a sex-offender will have his picture put in the newspaper. Of course, they can be found to be a sex-offender for asking for a girl's phone number. Since the UAE is considered to be a "moderate" country in terms of the Middle-East, this gives one pause to try to understand this cultural perspective. Well, at least in terms of my being from the United States. Where in the same countries, a man beating his wife would be considered normal or acceptable in any degree. To say that sexual harassment or sexual conduct could be covered in one article seems questionable at best.

Regarding the general tone of the first part of the article, I found it to be insinuating or leading at best, not objective. Here are the parts I thought could be cleaned up to make the article more objective:

Overall, the article lacked significant "cons" that is criticisms or counter-examples or negative viewpoints. I don't see a weighing of alternate viewpoints, I see a particular viewpoint, which I largely agree with, but no counter-balance.

Sections 2-5 are not footnoted nor referenced. I would think some footnoting would be appropriate, moreover, some of these things seem counter-intuitive, but are probably quite reasonable, but I would think some discussion between opposing viewpoints on these items would be appropriate. I get the sense I'm hearing "One side of the Story". As a quick example, a sexual harasser can be, according to this article "unaware" that their actions constitute sexual harassment, whereas murder requires intent. I'm not saying its not true, but a cornerstone in law is that intent is necessary...how is that not the case here, why does the law vary, at least in US terms, with that point...is it in other countries that this statement is true?

"Varied Behavior" (I will abbreviate using Sexual Harassment SH hereafter) The passage presupposes that an SH-er knowingly SH somebody. It says something to the effect that "One of the difficulties in understanding SH"...which presupposes motive. While in the previous section, it says that an SH-er may not know that their actions are SH. Motives are never mentioned or discussed in the article, which I think would be necessary to give this article sociological significance. For instance the article on "Rape" has a section on motivations, I think Sexual harassment should have one too.

"Behavioral Classes" is extremely biased, it presupposes malevolent intent, damage, harm or hostility. That is indeed one perspective, but should other perspectives be discussed as well? For objectivity's sake, I think it should.

Most of "Types of Sexual Harassment" also presupposes malevolence re:"serial harasser" and goes into bashing sexual harassers (which is fine by me), but lacks objectivity. The language and descriptors are not consistent with sociologically neutral terms, but loaded terms like "Socially inept", "Pest", "Eyes and Hands begin to Wander", etc. The type "Inadvertent" needs to be placed more in terms of a discussion regarding each type and perhaps the motivations for each type.

5. Types of sexual harassment also refers to "cures" in the first sentence, but I don't find material to this point.

6. "Retaliation and Backlash against a victim are common." is not referenced. I think that adding the point that people who file SH clams are often accused of protecting their own jobs or poor performance is an important point/myth that should be explored. The rest of the section seems quite good, with a few grammatical corrections.

7. "Common Effects" seems to be, as one observer in this section put it, a list for "pro-litigation" minded people. I think calling it "Effects of" would be quite sufficient, perhaps with any available statistics (do any exist? If not, that should be mentioned and why)

10.2.1 EEOC Definitions. At no point does the article mention, at least from my reading, that SH-er's conduct has to be unwelcome, according to the EEOC.

The first part of your debate section is quite good, as is most of the article, but the first five or so sections could be made more objective, spreading criticisms of different areas around. In the debate section, I'm sure a company would say "We think it should be handled internally." Which could be a matter of debate or the government shouldn't have the right to regulate free speech on private property, as opposed to government property or government contractors. One of your points "Some observer's feel that it should be zero tolerance-must report..."etc. There is no counter to that discussion point.The last part puts a blob of refrences down that could be moved to further reading or discussed in some degree (or is it work in progress? :) ).

You mention one EEOC statistic, 2007 filings for sexual harassment cases as 12,510, this statistic is quite loaded as 67.7% were either resolved by "Administrative closure" or "no reasonable cause".

I might be biased, but the overall tone also kind of points to a "pointlessness" to SH complaints and an "Hostile" environment. Perhaps some positive examples or promising statistics, maybe encouraging people who feel like they're being sexually harassed to act?

I don't believe 'prospective victims are 99% Women', EEOC statistics state that men represent roughly 12-16% of all reported cases 1999-2008.Sonthert (talk) 12:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire article starts with an unacceptable definition

The point of the entire article is lost in debates on the talk page, because the article actually starts off with the most vague, scientifically and judicially unacceptable definition ever. It's a definition that is so vague, that contributors can be fighting over what should and shouldn't be in this article forever and never reach a consensus.

Putting a concise, precise and concrete definition should be a priority. The current definition is taking from the "victim feminism" movements. The entire article is preceeded with a definition that ONLY a very small part of feminists agree with, and no one outside of feminism.

"Sexual harassment is unwelcome attention of a sexual nature, or gender based harassment."

To quote a russian judge making fun of this definition "If there were no sexual harassment, the human race would have long been extinct"

• Its also important to note that this type of feminism assumes a complete asexuality of any sexual advance. In other words, the feminist theories that define sexual harassment as a power-play... are the same theories that say that any sexual advance by a man is entirely rooted in power-seeking. EveryDay example, anytime you see a man approaching a woman, or asking for a date, he's "keeping up the patriarchy and repressing women"... not trying to get laid (no i'm not kidding, they actually believe that men who hit on women aren't trying to get laid, EVER, but trying to "enforce the repression of women"). Again, this is not a joke. They really believe this stuff.

• Feminist definition of Sexual harassment is left so vague that there is no way to determine ahead of time whether an act is sexual harassment, its only defined as such after-the-fact, when the "victim" decides she's not interested. If the right man approaches a woman, then its romantic. If the wrong man approaches a woman, then its sexual harassment. Except, the only way he can know if he's the right man, is by making a move. So its a catch 22. Therefore... the definition is completely insane (and I'm using a moderate word to describe it here)... A moral wrong-doing can not be defined as something for which the person can not know if he's doing it UNTIL he's done it.

(and I'm using he as the perpetrator and she as the receiver, because I'm talking about the currently used definition in this article, which does relate to mostly men)

I agree the lead section needs to be clarified. We should stay away from discussions of what sexual harassment should or shouldn't be, and instead rely on published, reliable sources, and indicate disagreements between schools of thought in the lead.

Stick to a broad definition at the beginning and narrow it to the context later. I am inclined to use legal definitions, but this might be too narrow, as much of what constitutes "sexual harassment" is not actionable.

Why don't you point out the specific sentences that are problematic here, and some work can be done to make them NPOV. Shadowjams (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

NewEdit: (this is the person who started this section, about needing a new definition)... I just saw that someone has put in a new definition. This definition is:

"Sexual harassment is unwelcome harassment of a sexual nature, or based upon the receiving party's sex or gender."

I REALLY like this definition, as it is very specific, and sane. Its much better than the vague one that was one for the longest time, and bonus point... it's actually referenced very nicely.

I think this problem has been solved. If everyone agrees, I think we can remove this section "articles has unacceptable definition". This is no longer the case, and I think the definition is very acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.249.212 (talk) 09:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Sexual Harassment outside of workplace?

I followed a link here from the article Harassment, which clearly stated that sexual harassment occurred often, but not always in the workplace, and simply was harassment that was sexual in nature or was motivated by the target's sex, sexuality, or gender.

It would be easy for the naive reader of this article, however, to draw a very different understanding: that sexual harassment is exclusively a workplace phenomenon, dependent for its existence on workplace power relationships.

Well ... how about a transsexual woman being pursued in the street with catcalls of "Faggot, faggot"? Is this sexual harassment or not? If not, why not? If so, I suggest that this article's view angle be broadened a bit to encompass sexual harassment in other settings, or else the article itself be retitled something like Sexual harassment in the workplace.

Why does Street Harassment redirect to this article when the article doesn't even mention street harassment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by QueenCaroline (talk • contribs) 18:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Using Sexual Harassment as a Weapon

With so much divergence in what constitutes sexual harassment, and the stigma for the accused, alleging sexual harassment can also, and has been, used as a weapon by the accuser.

e.g., The Grand Gallant section. This type of harassment is so vague it invites itself to be used as a weapon. Dwdallam (talk) 09:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC) Along this same line, is their a term for someone who sexually preys in order to secure promotion or pay raises (i.e. "sleeping with the boss")? (Submitted 8:40 PST, 19 May 2011) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.57.112 (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, this whole article is BS and needs to be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.85.178.154 (talk) 06:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

pics

--BBM20 (talk) 12:24, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

It could use some pics though.72.188.101.60 (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr

Something reallly needs to be done about the length of this page and keep it shorter amirite?72.188.101.60 (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Y Done I'm assuming you meant this talk page; I've archived all the old posts. -- œ^™ 18:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

corruption in india

Today, everyone says indisa is a independent country, it has its own constitution and laws but do u think any one follows this rules? why today all the politians are going away unpunished there omust be a stop to this. but who will stop we have thousands of words to say but when the time comes to do something everyone is quite. why do we depend on laws and constitution when we dont want to follow it. today india is among the top 38 countries in corruption. what india is growing. all the ministers are eating money , increasing prices of vegetables and sugar and for what???? for completing big projects like lavasa and etc.... why do always we middle class people suffer. now even ecucation has become a business . people establish scools and yearly fees starts from a lakh to 12 lakhs and for what so much caharge for AC Bills high class classrooms etc.. i dont know when will this thing stop but i know one thing if we take small steps towards a change and if this politicans understand then maybe indiaa could change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Urjabeauty (talk • contribs) 17:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

and not a word about false allegations... ?

It would strengthen the wiki article on sexual harassment to include a section on the problem of false complaints.

There are many reasons for false accusations of sexual harrassment. O'Donohue and Bowers classify 14 reasons in their article:

William O'Donohue, Adrian H. Bowers. Pathways to false allegations of sexual harassment. Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling. Jan 2006. 3(1):44-47. DOI: 10.1002/jip.43 >Their abstract: “A sexual harassment allegation is either true or false. Whether specific allegations are true or false is important to questions of epidemiology, clinical diagnosis and treatment, administrative and legal proceedings, as well as the welfare of actual victims and innocent alleged perpetrators. It is naïve and harmful to operate with the heuristic: ‘All claims are true’. However, the truth of many allegations is very difficult to determine, particularly as is often the case when there are no witnesses, no conclusive hard evidence, and the presence of a situation where both parties have divergent accounts of the alleged occurrence. There has been little theoretical or empirical work on what would cause a person to make a false allegation of sexual harassment. This paper gives an overview of the intricacies associated with sexual harassment investigations and enumerates 14 possible pathways to false allegations: lying; borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, psychosis, gender prejudice, substance abuse, dementia, false memories, false interpretations, biased interviews, sociopathy, personality disorders not otherwise specified, investigative mistakes, and mistakes in determination of the degree of harassment.”<< |

The frequency of false allegations of sexual harassment is controversial, context specific and mainly uncounted. For a recent statistic of about 6% false accusation in the far more severe matter of sexual assault, see the recent article: David Lisak, Lori Gardinier, Sarah C. Nicksa and Ashley M. Cote. False Allegations of Sexual Assault: An Analysis of Ten Years of Reported Cases. Violence Against Women. 2010;16(12):1318–1334. http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/16/12/1318 DOI: 10.1177/1077801210387747

>Abstract "One of the most controversial disputes affecting the discourse related to violence against women is the dispute about the frequency of false allegations of sexual assault. In an effort to add clarity to the discourse, published research on false allegations is critiqued, and the results of a new study described. All cases (N = 136) of sexual assault reported to a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period are analyzed to determine the percentage of false allegations. Of the 136 cases of sexual assault reported over the 10-year period, 8 (5.9%) are coded as false allegations. These results, taken in the context of an examination of previous research, indicate that the prevalence of false allegations [on sexual assault] is between 2% and 10%." <<<

Some institutions have amended their sexual harassment prevention policy to include a cautionary clause that accusations which are found to be insincere, untrue, false, manipulative, malicious are unacceptable, forbidden and may result in dismissal or discharge.

However, many universities, institutions and organizations do not discipline, let alone count, false complaints of sexual harassment.

Women whose accusations of domestic and sexual abuse are found to be false and even malicious enjoy immunity thanks to feminist legislation or regulation. For example in Israel, the Attorney General guideline 2.5 mandates exemption from prosecution to women who made false police complaint on domestic violence.

Perhaps there should be a separate wiki page on false accusations of sexual harrassment. -- Yohananw (talk) 10:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

biased towards men

I'm surprized nobody on Wikipedia mentioned how men get accused of sexual harassment far more often than women do when it really happens roughly half and half with women having a slight edge because they are able to get away with more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.246.31 (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Question

If you are accused of sexual harassment by your employer do they have to tell what you've said. I'm curious because I was once accused and my employer will not tell me what they claim I said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.129.243.100 (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)