Talk:Shenyang

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Simplified Chinese to Pinyin?[edit]

A native speaker is pronouncing the name of "Dudong" district (the northeast district of Shenyang city) quite differently than I have it spelled here, so I believe the Pinyin translation may be incorrect.

By the way, I have a map of Shenyang with Simplified Chinese labels on it, so if someone wants to help out with translating the labels, please let me know and I will be happy to e-mail you a copy of a scan I made of it.

Also, if anyone can refer me to a good source (either a web page, a book, an electronic translator, or some software I could buy?) that makes it possible to type in Simplified Chinese characters from a Chinese text (or a map in this case) and have them translated into Pinyin, please let me know, as I am having limited success with this, even working with a native speaker, as she can pronounce what she reads, but doesn't know Pinyin.

Thanks. --DV 09:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fixed the spelling of "Dadong" district, and also started adding Simplified Chinese and Pinyin spellings for each district. --DV 13:05, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The name sentence with different versions (Pinyin etc) etc should really include "Mukden" as a traditional name (for user reference). My edit to this effect has been deleted - this does not reflect a neutral POV.

Map[edit]

Is the map correct? Korean and Japanese map locate other region. Cheol 11:22, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Koreans were native to Manchuria even before Manchurians or Other ethnic tribes existed in Manchuria. ( Ko-Chosun, Korguro, Balhae,) these Korean states were Puyo Korean tribe ancestor states. Koreans have been settling in Manchuria during 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th century. Korean history and Korean culture always had strong political and cultural foothold in Manchuria. Koreans always have been native to Manchuria including shenyang.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreanstudy1 (talkcontribs) 21:49, 6 July 2008

Jingshen Expressway[edit]

Does the Jingshen Expressway have 8 or 6 lanes? The wikipedia article says 6, but this text says 8.

Mukden[edit]

OK. I am not having an edit war again. Can someone tell me why we cannot list the Manchu name of Shenyang in the heading.--Niohe 21:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

While I'm not adamant that the rarely used Manchu name Simiyan hoton be included in the heading of this article, I do think we should include the name Mukden, the name under which this important city was known for generations. Unless I hear any convincing arguments why Mukden should not be added within the next 24 hours, I will change it and I hope it will stay in the article.--Niohe 00:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Shenyang as a city name is well established in English language and Mukden is already indicated enough in the history section of this article. Zhang Qiang 15:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me ask you why we should be so exclusive? What does the article loose if we add Mukden in the heading?--Niohe 15:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Shenyang is also known as "Shengjing", "Fengtian". There are just too many old names to put there. And above all the name "Shenyang" is the most well known. Besides Manchu is a defunct language. Anyway, these old names are all highlighted in the history section, there is no need to repeated these outdated names in the article. Zhang Qiang 15:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that we put all historical names for Shenyang, let's be reasonable. Mukden is a well-known name, which has been used for decades. And in Wikipedia, putting multiple names of cities is not something unheard of, look at İzmir for instance. If you argue that we should not burden the head of this article with multilple names, where is the need for the name in simplified and traditional Chinese characters as well as pinyin? All you need to do is to look in the upper right corner or click on the 中文 link to Chinese Wikipedia.
Furthermore, Manchu is not "defunct", where did you get that from?--Niohe 16:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Another example of a multiple language heading is Gdańsk, which was object of a heated dispute not long ago. You can draw your own conclusions.--Niohe 16:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, it seems that the discussion has ended. Unless I hear anything soon, I will add the Manchu name(s) of Shenyang to the head of this article. Hope it can stay that way.--Niohe 20:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is only known in English when it comes to history. Since there are too many old names. It is better not to list them all. Snle 16:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I favor mention of both Mukden and Fengtian in the header due to the historical importance of these names. The article will lose nothing, and it does not matter that these names are repeated again in the History sub-section. MChew 17:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Snle, could you please engage with the arguments I have presented before you revert? And Mukden is known in several other languages, in case you are concerned.
I agree with MChew that there is a case for including Fengtian as well. --Niohe 18:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I am going to leave this as it is for the time being. On second thought, it might not be a good idea to have Fengtian listed as a name of Shenyang. Strictly speaking, it is not the name of the city, but of the prefecture around Shenyang and there is already a disambiguation page for this. I'll wait for others to contribute on this before I make any changes.--Niohe 21:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is used in English only when people are talking about Mukden Incident or Battle of Mukden. It is very rare to be used otherwise. There is no need to add Mukden to the head of the article. Zhang Qiang 14:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. The name Mukden was widely used in the English language press prior to 1949. Just look at this map.--Niohe 16:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the words you want add are nonstandard outdated words. It is better keep them in the history section. Zhang Qiang 17:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually by the standards you established on Talk:Dalian, Mukden is a standard name in the English language. Just look in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, which you quoted yourself.--Niohe

20:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, did you note that the Merriam-Webster referred to Shenyang as a city in Manchuria aka Northeast China?--Niohe 20:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no main entry for Mukden in the dictionary. It is definitely misleading information to have it on the head of the article. Nobody knowns what the hell Mukden is. Zhang Qiang 20:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, so now we shouldn't use Merriam-Webster anymore? I beg your pardon. Anyway, I thought that abn encyclopedia is a place where you find more information about things, not a soapbox for whatever government that happens to rule in Northeast China. If Japan still ruled over Northeast China, I would argue for the inclusion of Shenyang. By the way, you still haven't responded to the evidence I have presented. And spare me from expletives.--Niohe 20:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You should also notice that the dictionary define Manchuria as region NE China S of the Amur including Heilongjiang, Jilin, & Liaoning provinces & part of Inner Mongolia. Not just the 3 provinces. Zhang Qiang 20:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

My argument is not resting on Merriam-Webster, so you're free to make your own interpretations. It's just too bad that you only accept that dictionary when it supports your argument.--Niohe 20:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you pointed out yourself, Mukden is used only before 1949. It is outdated and there is no main entry for it in the dictionary. Some mentioning in the history section is enough. 20:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

"Only before 1949"? Look at this map.--Niohe 20:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see the map was originally made by the Japanese in the 1930s. It is nonstandard and outdated. Some mentioning at the history section is enough. Zhang Qiang 20:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It is clearly pointless to argue with you. Unless this has been done already, I will report you for violation of the WP:3RR.--Niohe 21:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what Niohe is trying to do here. But Mukden is definitely an offensive word in China. Snle 16:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Please come with supporting evidence when you make claims. It is very difficult to reach a consensus when you make blanket statements like that.
On a more serious note, I am starting to suspect that you are a sock puppet of User:Zhang Qiang.--Niohe 17:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical names[edit]

I've directed the discussion towards Talk:Dalian#Historical names—please discuss there. —Khoikhoi 17:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

九•一八事变[edit]

Since Mukden Incident is officially classified by the Chinese government as the shame of the nation. I consider it vandalism for someone to add Mukden to the heading of this article, because this word is already mentioned in the history section. User:九·一八事变 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 918 (talkcontribs) 20:00, 1 October 2006.

I somehow fail to see the relevance of the comment above. Besides, it is obvious that this is the sock puppet of Zhang Qiang/Snle.--Niohe 20:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no such rule that says it is a must to put nonstandard, outdated names on the heading either. Since there are people offended by your addition, it is better not to list them on the top of the article. People only need to know these words, when it comes to history. So some indication in the history section will do it. 918 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, yes there is, I direct you to: Wikipedia:Redirect#What_needs_to_be_done_on_pages_that_are_targets_of_redirects.3F and Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Principle_of_least_astonishment. When a user clicks through Mukden and Shenyang shows up, you better tell the user in the 1st paragraph why that happened. The path of quickest information is that pursued, by putting the former names in parantheses. I only only repeat myself: this is common pratice on Wikipedia. —Khoikhoi 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Mukden is outdated nonstandard English. What kind of a fool will type Mukden in Wikipedia. People only search for Shenyang. 918 21:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you know better than most people what is being typed into Wikipedia. Are you privy to any special source of information?--Niohe 21:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I just typed Mukden into Google, excluding all hits with "incident" or "battle", and I got 127,000 hits. There are a lot of fools out there. Perhaps you should talk to the people working on Google instead of disrupting Wikipedia.--Niohe 21:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't buy your number. I did a similar search. Most of the results concerns with the incidents. Others deal with encyclopedia type definition. Most people are actually clever than you. 918 21:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: 127,000 for "mukden" -incident -battle. The fact that there was an event called the Mukden Incident (not the "Shenyang Incident") is even more of a reason to have the Manchu name at the top. Also, please remain civil. —Khoikhoi 22:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW, why don't we use the authoritative Encyclopædia Britannica as an example?
Shen-yang: formerly Mukden, Pinyin Shenyang — capital of Liaoning sheng (province), China, and the largest city in the Northeast (formerly Manchuria). It is one of China's greatest industrial centres.
I don't see Britannica erasing historical names from city articles because they are Chinese cities today. —Khoikhoi 22:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

918:

"Mukden" is and has always been the Manchu name for Shenyang. Moreover it is widely used in older English sources, not just those related to the Second Sino-Japanese War. It has not become "offensive" because one historical event is named after it. -- ran (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with User:Ran MChew 08:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The example you use is a bad example. Most time, Shenyang is just enough. As for Wikipedia, the thing you really need to do is to put (now Shenyang) next to Mukden whenever it is used, instead of leaving the readers lost there, wondering what Mukden really is. Zhang Qiang 15:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

What example? You're the one who brought up the example of the Mukden Incident and insisted that the name "Mukden" is offensive because it is linked to the Mukden Incident. Like I said, Mukden is simply an older name for Shenyang and is not specifically linked to the Second Sino-Japanese War.

Avoiding confusion is precisely the reason that the article "Shenyang" has "Mukden" as an alternate name right at the top. Also, Mukden is already a link to Shenyang. -- ran (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Death Note[edit]

Proposing removal of Death Note mention from "Shenyang Incident", or at least reduce its length in comparison to the politcal incident. This is just so wikigroaning. --Simmerl 08:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree - although this might be relevant for smaller towns, considering the size of Shenyang it just seems trivial. Best to keep this on the Death Note page. Brutannica (talk) 18:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Harbin or Shenyang[edit]

In the section describing the breakdown of the city, jurisdiction is given to Harbin, not Shenyang: "The sub-provincial city of Harbin has direct jurisdiction over 10 districts". Is this a typo from copying a different page for formatting, or is this city controlled by Harbin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.232.44.2 (talk) 10:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

what do you think? use your judgment -_- ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Pictures[edit]

We should use more realistic pictures on the wikipedia, and less often use pictures which were redone with photoshop 136.199.5.31 (talk) 10:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. then how are photos retouched? ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Korean name[edit]

who added the Korean name here? It doesn't really belong, given much of Liaoning is outside of the old Goguryeo. ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 14:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Lily Tower[edit]

Why isn't Lily Tower mentioned in the article? The tower having no own article is no excuse for leaving it out. Because it is a observation tower. Skyscraperpage.com lists two viewing decks. 85.217.36.144 (talk) 09:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

There's no real reason why somethings are not mentioned other than that they just aren't mentioned. Feel free to add to the article if you think something important has been omitted. Rincewind42 (talk) 13:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit]

"Shenyang has been diversifying its industry and now boasts a solid industrial foundation, a good land and air transport network, abundant natural resources, and a skilled workforce. Investment subsidies are granted to multinational corporations (MNCs) that set up offices or headquarters in Shenyang.[2]" - Is this some sort of ad for foreign investors? Nicely done. 136.199.201.88 (talk) 08:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Transportation - City[edit]

The section entitled "Transportation", subheading "city" is confusing to me. I am familiar with driving in Shenyang and find the descriptions of beltways at odds with my experience. Several of them are described as "Express Ways" which I would take odds with. They may have the apearance of an American express way but that doesn't mean they are. In particular the speed limits are typically just 50 to 60 kph. Only the Shenyang Transit Bypass Highway could really be termed as an express way. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to support that? Like a travel guide or anything.Millertime246 (talk) 00:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
You've got it the wrong way round. You can't have sources to show a negative. You need to provide sources for the current information. I don't need to prove something isn't an express way. You need to prove that something is. Rincewind42 (talk) 11:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

"or Mukden" = undue weight[edit]

Mukden is the historical Manchu name for Shenyang. The phrasing of the intro "Shenyang, or Mukden, is the capital and largest city of Liaoning Province" strongly implies that both names are in current usage. This is not the case. The article's own History section goes on to explain:

In 1914, the city changed back to its old name Shenyang. Shenyang continued to be known as Mukden in some English sources (sometimes spelled Moukden) through much of the 20th century.

Mukden should not be introduced as the current name of the city. Without reasoned objection, I will be bold and change the opening sentence. DrewHeath (talk) 09:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I think simply changing the "or" to be "formerly" would be sufficient. However, keep the word Mukden up top due to its recent use in English language texts on the subject. Rincewind42 (talk) 14:04, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree this is a wise way to treat it. I've made the appropriate change. Thank you for your input. DrewHeath (talk) 02:19, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Coordinate[edit]

Why is the coordinate not showing right even after I fixed it? It points to a location far to the southwest. JMK (talk) 12:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Delicacy[edit]

In the section "Environment:"

"Shenyang has many parks. Self-organizing groups advocating sustainable travel such as local rail revival, walking and cycling, reduction in energy demand and waste generally, protection of wildlife, cleaning the river and lakes, and the development of environmental technologies in the city, are increasingly popular."

sounds like a press release by the local chamber of commerce. This section should include whatever environmental issues impact the city; air pollution is obvious but any industrial center is strongly impacted by multiple issues. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)