Talk:Shetland

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Good article Shetland has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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County and towns of Zetland in Registers of Scotland[edit]

Why is Shetland not noted as a county on Shetland, as it is listed as a county in "The Registers of Scotland, Land Register Counties, leaflet", which has a list of 73 towns in the County of "Orkney & Zetland" see Registers of Scotland. Publications, leaflets, Land Register Counties. http://www.ros.gov.uk/public/publications/leaflets.html ? The towns in Zetland (separate list for Orkney) were: 1. Aith 2.Baltasound 3. Bigton 4. Bixter 5.Brae 6.Bressay 7.Brettabister 8.Bridge End 9.Bridge of Walls 10.Brough 11.Burravoe 12.Camb 13.Cullivoe 14.Cunningsburgh 15.Dunrossan 16.East Isle 17.East Yell 18.Eshaness 19.Fair Isle 20.Fetlar 21.Foula 22.Garderhause 23.Girlata 24.Gott 25.Gremista 26.Gulberwick 27.Gutcher 28.Hamer 29.Hamnavoe 30.Heylor 31.Hillswick 32.Lerwick 33.Levenwick 34.Lochend 35.Lower Hillhead 36.Mid Yell 37.Mossbank 38.Muckle Roe 39.North Roe 40.Ollaberry 41.Out Skerries 42.Papa Stour 43.Quarff 44.Quendale 45.Reawick 46.Sandness 47.Sandwick 48.Scalloway 49.Scousburgh 50.Sellafirth 51.Skellister 52.Skerries 53.Sullom 54.Sumburgh Airport 55.Symbister 56.Tresta 57.Ulsta 58.Unst 59.Upper Sound 60.Uyeasound 61.Vidlin 62.Virkie 63.Voe 64.Walls 65.Weisdale 66.West Isle 67.West Sandwick 68.Wester 69.Quarff 70.Westerskeld 71.Whalsay 72.Whiteness 73.Yell. Scotire (talk) 13:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


Neutrality of this article is in question[edit]

The whole article minimizes and dismisses Scottish influences and culture on Shetland. It highlights 'When Shetland became part of the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707,', this is not true as Shetland has never joined the UK, Scotland did and in 1603. The Scottish Parliament was never dissolved, it just did not reconvene until 1999.

The language used across the article is anti-Scottish and is used to highlight differences and no inclusion of what it shares with fellow Scots.

Headlines like 'Pawned to Scotland' and 'Increasing Scottish interest' again minimize and degrade Scottish history of the islands and is alsmost propaganda against how Scottish the islands are.

Caithness, The Western Isles, Yorkshire and parts of Ireland where also heavily Norse and part of the Norse crown at some point, as was Normandy and other huge parts of Europe. Highlighting 'norse' heritage of Shetland is highlighting one small part of a bigger picuture.

'Early British Rule' is just odd. I do not see any other British article highlighting that Ipswich, London or Scilly Islands had a change of rule in 1707...so why does Shetland?

"Scottish and local traders" again the language used is used to make it sound like Shetlanders are not Scottish...propaganda.

The Shetland independence article and talk is based on one article published in the NewStatesman and nothing else.

All in all the article is not suitable and the language needs serious editing as it is currently reading like westminster anti-Scottish propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blairtummock (talkcontribs) 12:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps if had the time I would attend to the individual points you make. However I don't right now and in general your comments seem to me to be over-sensitive. To take one example, can you explain to me why you think phrases such as 'Pawned to Scotland' and 'Increasing Scottish interest', which seem to me to be reasonably neutral "minimize and degrade Scottish history". A second might be that no-one in Yorkshire was speaking a Norse dialect until relatively recently - but then neither your opinion nor mine really matter. Can you point to credible sources that approach the topic in a wholly different way? No-one is pretending that Shetland is not part of Scotland - it does however have a unique history and the sources I have tend to mention that. Ben MacDui 18:34, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

"Perhaps if had the time I would attend to the individual points you make. However I don't right now and in general your comments seem to me to be over-sensitive."

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem, it is not healthy to sit and 'own' wikipedia pages. Making sure there is no vandalism, yes, sitting like a propaganda analyst, no. I think it is clearly time that you back off and take less ownership as you clearly have issues of neutrality.

"Yorkshire was speaking a Norse dialect until relatively recently". People in Cumbria spoke Old Welsh dialects until the 19th cent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera), people in Cornwall spoke Cornish until the 17th Century, Calais was maainly Flemish speaking until the early 20th century. There is nothing unique in having different languages and dialects as they existed all over the place. Shetlanders would also have spoken Scots and would have been a multi-lingual society for many centuries, with Norse being less wide spoken and marginal over time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blairtummock (talkcontribs) 16:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Your tone strikes me as mildly threatening and lacking in assumptions of good faith, but let's not dwell on that. Do you have something useful to say that's backed up by credible sources? If you do than sensible discussion can follow. I don't recall stating that Shetland was unique in having multiple languages and dialects and I notice that the Cornwall article has a section both on the Cornish language and on 'national identity'. Perhaps you consider this to be "westminster anti-English propaganda"? - but then I confess to some confusion about your motivations. Ben MacDui 19:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Ben. Cla68 (talk) 06:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
I've no axe to grind, and I can see nothing to justify the "POV" box. Horis (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Lock article in run up to and aftermath of Scottish independence vote[edit]

As hard as it might be for people to imagine, the existence of the Shetland islands as fundamentally part of Scotland is about to become incredibly politicised due to the Scottish independence debate. I strongly advocate locking the article until well after the terms of separation are settled to avoid Wikipedia being used as a political football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.57.163 (talk) 04:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You may well be right but we don't usually protect articles until they are actually subject to such abuse. So far so good at any rate. 18:38, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Need better map image[edit]

In the section Shetland#History there is a map showing the Shetland islands in a box between two other land masses. I guess it's a topographical map. However, there is no labeling on the land masses to show someone who is not familiar with that geography what the land masses are, and no hint in the caption, either. One needs to click on the image and read the fine print in the image file to learn the names of the two land masses either side of the Shetland islands, but even that does not tell which is which. Wouldn't it be more helpful to the average reader trying to learn about the Shetland islands if there were a map with the nearby land masses clearly labeled? CorinneSD (talk) 03:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It is the GEOLOGICAL map. No GEOGRAPHIC map. This map was made ​​for who want to know more about the geology of the Shetland. The geograpphic maps there are many.

Cicconorsk (talk) 19:30, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree. An editor made an attempt to make the map more understandable by adding information to the caption, but I think a geographic map, with land masses labeled, and possibly also the north-south-east-west compass points indicated, would be better. If the topographic map (showing elevations) is also desirable, perhaps it can be included in the section on geology. CorinneSD (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
There may well be something more useful on Commons but I don't think the current set up is too bad. You have a map at the top showing the archipelago in relation to Scotland, the geology map and then the topo map in the History section - where arguably this information is most relevant. If it were to remain there and have landmasses identified it would, in that context, ideally show the historical information rather than the present day. I would love to be able to create good quality maps but sadly I have not yet learned how to do that. Ben MacDui 14:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
The "Etymology" section links to Northern Isles, where this
Map of the Shetland
is used. It is also used at List of Shetland islands which links from "Geography and geology". I have added it: acceptable? --Qexigator (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Qexigator, I think the map you added is too similar to the map at the top of the page. There is no map in the article that has the neighboring land masses labeled (not just the seas). For readers who do not instantly recognize the shape of Scotland, the map at the top of the article does not help to locate the Shetland islands. CorinneSD (talk) 18:58, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

1_too similar, but it locates the places, which the others do not, so that helps the reader without resorting to the other articles; and I feel it can be retained as a useful part of the article.

Beschreibung: Ausschnittskarte der Shetlandinseln

2_readers who do not instantly recognize the shape of Scotland: but they can read the adjacent first sentence- "...the Shetland Islands, is a subarctic archipelago of Scotland that lies north-east of mainland Britain". Is that not clear enough for anyone? But it is strange that none of the available images (in English) include a label for Scotland or Britain. Perhaps it's not a real problem. This one in German would not be suitable. The open sea between German Bight and Scapa Flow!

Qexigator (talk) 21:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Qexigator I understand your desire to have a map that indicates the towns and cities, but isn't there another map that doesn't have those big red and black dots? Those dots are so big that they are distracting. I've seen geographical maps (indicating towns and cities) that look a little more visually attractive. As for the other issue -- the other type of map -- I like the German map itself very much. It really locates the Shetland islands relative to the surrounding land masses. I wonder if there were a way to substitute English labels for the German labels, and if there were, whether we'd be allowed to use it. CorinneSD (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Could be, but it's a question of what is available, is it not, as well as what looks best on the page. Adapting the German image for use here goes beyond the user-skill limits of ... Qexigator (talk) 22:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Re "I think the map you added is too similar to the map at the top of the page." - I agree. I have moved it down to the Econs section where there is room and so that it is just above Transport, where various places indicated on it are mentioned. We are not (yet) blessed with a cornucopia of maps - but bear in mind that if someone wants to know where Scotland is they just have to click a link. Ben MacDui 08:32, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this thread is slightly missing the point. The map in question is in the history section of the article, and its purpose is to enhance understanding of the Shetland's history - not to locate them. The map is that should locate the subject is the infobox map. With that in mind a few thoughts:

  1. The infobox map - should be a locator - so this not this. In general, infobox maps are plain without labels (cf Sicily, Germany, Isle of Wight). More detailed maps throughout the article are good, and current setup is fine on that eg one in economy showing the towns, one in geography/geology showing geology etc.
  2. The map in the history section is inadequate - it tells you nothing about Vikings. IMO most suitable map style would be a labelled, political map, of a given date. For example, File:Europe, 1700 - 1714.png and File:Europe 1812 map en.png show Europe at the start of 18th and 19th C. A sequence of maps (dated to eg c 700, 1000, 1300 and 1600) would be most valuable, as that can show the changes more effectively than a single image. If a single image is used, one showing Shetland as part of Norway (so c. 1000) would be most valuable.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I've added a link to this thread on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps#Shetland_islands, if you can specify what you need, someone there should be able to assist you. EdwardLane (talk) 12:07, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The people at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop may be able to help if you can agree exactly what is needed: at least a list of dates, each with a list of which region should be which colour. Certes (talk) 14:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Hj = Yogh? Dunno.[edit]

Yogh generally shows or sounds as as "gy-," "g-" or "y-" e.g. Menzies-Mingus yett-gate. It's close, but hardly "almost identical" to "hj."

Also, if memory serves (Yeah, I know, it often doesn't.) the misapprehension of the Yogh as Zed happened early enough among English speakers to have influenced the current "Sh" pronunciation. Anmccaff (talk) 07:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to ask how the SH pronunciation came about. SH is a unique pronuciation of yogh, it seems. I'd be surprised if Z became SH, but I could be wrong. Also, SH is so late that maybe it's misleading to speak of it as a pronunciation of yogh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vince Calegon (talkcontribs) 13:42, 19 April 2015 (UTC)