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"Better Moves for Better Shogi" by Teruichi Aono[edit]

It appears that Teruichi Aono's book Better Moves for Better Shogi was reissued in 2009 by Ishi Press International. This seems to be the original that is referenced in the article and this is the version that was released in 2009. They appear to be the same book, but I'm not entirely sure. Should the older version referenced in the article be replaced by the newer version if they are indeed the same book? Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 02:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

These are the same books from 1983 version and 2009 version. In addition to the publishing companies, the number of pages and isbn-13 numbers are also different. The 2009 version also includes a forward by Sam Sloan and lists him as a coauthor. The Japanese titles of books are pretty much the same. My guess is that the 1983 version was based on a shogi lecture that Aono probably did for NHK-E, but any reference to this was dropped from the Ishi Press version (at least from the cover). - Marchjuly (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Edo period notation?[edit]

The section on notation states that the notation based on Western chess algebraic notation is not used in Japan because "it is no more concise than traditional notation with kanji and two ciphers which was originated in Edo period". What is this traditional notation, and what does that passage mean by "ciphers"? It can't be the variation on algebraic notation using kanji instead of letters a-i for the rank discussed later, because arabic numerals would have been virtually unknown in Japan during the Edo period. Can anyone expand on this? — Gwalla | Talk 21:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gwalla. I've been trying to find an answer to your question, but so far I haven't had any luck. I am no expert on Japanese history, so I can't say exactly when Arabic numerals were introduced to Japan. The Japanese Wikipedia article for Arabic numerals says that during the 19th century their use had become established throughout the "Kanji-using countries" and Arabic numerals#Adoption in China says that were introduced to China as early as 1271 AD by Muslims and again in the 17th century by the Jesuits. Given that there was missionary activity in certain parts of Japan during that time, it's not totally far-fetched to assume those numbers were also introduced to Japan around roughly the same time. I do know that there is a sort of short-hand for game scores that is sometimes used in newspapers, etc. like this or this (sorry both links are in Japanese). Most of the really old game scores I've ever seen were written in the "Arabic number" + "kanji numeral" + "kanji" format, but they were probably rewritten. I'm not sure if that exactly answers your question, but I'll keep searching. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into it. There had certainly been missionary activity in the 17th century, but the missionaries were kicked out and Christianity was suppressed, with the only foreign contact allowed being Dutch traders at Nagasaki (since they weren't interested in converting people, just in making money). It seems unlikely that they would have been adopted for something as non-Western as shogi. Commodore Perry and the opening of Japan in the mid-19th century were technically Edo Period, but at the very tail end. — Gwalla | Talk 17:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi again Gwalla. It looks like that information was added here by Aphaia. Since the information is not cited and there was no editsum left, I can't really say why that was added to the article. I guess it could possibly be considered WP:OR, so you could just be bold and change it directly yourself or try and reach a consensus on this talk page first. Or, you could, if you want, leave a message at User talk:Aphaia talk and ask for a more detailed explanation. Maybe Aphaia knows of a source that could be added. - Marchjuly (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)



I am going to revert this edit because I don't feel dragoon is the term used by most English materials on shogi. For example, Hosking uses dragon-king on page 11 of his Art of Shogi and although I no longer have their books, I believe John Fairbairn and Trevor Leggett use the same term as well. Moreover, I have never seen the term dragoon used to describe this piece in any shogi-related materials or on any shogi-related websites. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, the Japanese kanji 竜 or 龍 are always translated into English as dragon. Maybe dragoon is an alternative spelling of dragon? Even if it is, we should stick with dragon since that is the term used throughout the shogi article and through out other shogi-related articles such as Ryu-oh. Unless it can be cited that dragoon is the preferred usage, this change should not be made. If others feel differently, then please discuss. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

References (cleanup)[edit]


There is some inconsistency in the format used for the the dates and access dates in the references throughout the article. I have helped contribute to this by using the DD MM YYYY format. MOS:DATEUNIFY says the same format should be used and WP:CITEVAR says that we should defer to the format chosen by the first primary contributor as long as there is no consensus to change formats. I've tried finding the first primary contributor to add a reference, but have had no luck so far. It appears that early on urls were just added without templates or dates. Maybe the best thing to do is to just agree upon a particular format to use. Anybody else have any suggestions. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)