Talk:Shogi

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Edo period notation?[edit]

The section on notation states that the notation based on Western chess algebraic notation is not used in Japan because "it is no more concise than traditional notation with kanji and two ciphers which was originated in Edo period". What is this traditional notation, and what does that passage mean by "ciphers"? It can't be the variation on algebraic notation using kanji instead of letters a-i for the rank discussed later, because arabic numerals would have been virtually unknown in Japan during the Edo period. Can anyone expand on this? — Gwalla | Talk 21:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Gwalla. I've been trying to find an answer to your question, but so far I haven't had any luck. I am no expert on Japanese history, so I can't say exactly when Arabic numerals were introduced to Japan. The Japanese Wikipedia article for Arabic numerals says that during the 19th century their use had become established throughout the "Kanji-using countries" and Arabic numerals#Adoption in China says that were introduced to China as early as 1271 AD by Muslims and again in the 17th century by the Jesuits. Given that there was missionary activity in certain parts of Japan during that time, it's not totally far-fetched to assume those numbers were also introduced to Japan around roughly the same time. I do know that there is a sort of short-hand for game scores that is sometimes used in newspapers, etc. like this or this (sorry both links are in Japanese). Most of the really old game scores I've ever seen were written in the "Arabic number" + "kanji numeral" + "kanji" format, but they were probably rewritten. I'm not sure if that exactly answers your question, but I'll keep searching. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into it. There had certainly been missionary activity in the 17th century, but the missionaries were kicked out and Christianity was suppressed, with the only foreign contact allowed being Dutch traders at Nagasaki (since they weren't interested in converting people, just in making money). It seems unlikely that they would have been adopted for something as non-Western as shogi. Commodore Perry and the opening of Japan in the mid-19th century were technically Edo Period, but at the very tail end. — Gwalla | Talk 17:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi again Gwalla. It looks like that information was added here by Aphaia. Since the information is not cited and there was no editsum left, I can't really say why that was added to the article. I guess it could possibly be considered WP:OR, so you could just be bold and change it directly yourself or try and reach a consensus on this talk page first. Or, you could, if you want, leave a message at User talk:Aphaia talk and ask for a more detailed explanation. Maybe Aphaia knows of a source that could be added. - Marchjuly (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
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Hi, I saw the original saying "it is no more concise than kanji" meaningless (at least I cannot guess what it had meant) and tried to change it to fit to the current system. The modern notation of shogi is Japan is as follows: it begins as
76歩 34歩
66歩 84歩 
68飛 62銀
16歩 14歩
every here three letter set (two numbers/ciphers and one kanji) represents where the given piece moves to, that is readers are expected to know its original place. For our 76歩, it settled in 77 (in some notation variant, it would be 7七 for readability). I have no idea if it is more or less concise of chess notation, but anyway each move represents of two numeric letters and one kanji, not kanji only as the original saying suggested. Traditionally there were other type of notations: one of them assigned one particular kanji to each place, so our 76歩 would be called 春歩 instead, because the latter notation assigned the kanji 春 to the place today we call 76. In almost all well known shogi notations the destination of pieces and only it was noted, different from chess, as far as I know, but I don't have sources at hand, sorry. The modern notation could be find in Shogi Association website, if you would like to add a detailed and cited description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aphaia (talkcontribs) 00:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC+9)
(Added signature and fixed the indentation of this post to make this discussion easier to follow per WP:TPO - Marchjuly (talk) 21:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC))
So in Edo-period notation each square of the board had a particular kanji assigned to it? Interesting. Do you know if large-board variants used a similar system? — Gwalla | Talk 17:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
(Fixed indentation of this post to make this discussion easier to follow per WP:TPO - Marchjuly (talk) 21:33, 9 September 2014 (UTC))

References (cleanup)[edit]

Hi,

There is some inconsistency in the format used for the the dates and access dates in the references throughout the article. I have helped contribute to this by using the DD MM YYYY format. MOS:DATEUNIFY says the same format should be used and WP:CITEVAR says that we should defer to the format chosen by the first primary contributor as long as there is no consensus to change formats. I've tried finding the first primary contributor to add a reference, but have had no luck so far. It appears that early on urls were just added without templates or dates. Maybe the best thing to do is to just agree upon a particular format to use. Anybody else have any suggestions. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Year JSA founded.[edit]

There are two places in the article where the year the Japan Shogi Association was founded is mentioned. Both of these mentions cite exactly the same page of the JSA's official website. The first one is in the Shogi#History which says the following:

In 1909, the Shogi Association (将棋同盟社?) was formed, and in 1924, the Tokyo Shogi Association (東京将棋同盟社?) was formed. This was an early incarnation of the modern Japan Shogi Association (日本将棋連盟?), founded in 1947.[12]

The second mention is in Shogi#Tournament play and is as follows:

The JSA is the primary organization for men and women's professional shogi and was founded in 1924.[14]

The "Tournament play" section originally did list 1947 as well, but I changed it with this edit. I did not notice at the time that the same link and information was also being used in the "History" section. If I had I would've probably changed it too. I don't 1947 is being incorrectly cited, at least not according to that JSA page, and that 1924 is the correct year. 1924 is indeed the year that the "Tokyo Shogi Association" was formed, but even though the name is different, this is the year, not 1947, the JSA considers that it was founded.

The "Tokyo Shogi Association" changed it's name to the "Japan Shogi Association" for the first time in 1927. It continued to use this name until 1936, when it changed it's name to "Shogi Taisei Association". This was used up until 1947, when the name was changed back to the "Japan Shogi Association". This is all the cited JSA page says. It does not say it was founded in 1947. The same page does, however, go on to say that the JSA celebrated its 創立75周年 (75th Anniversary) in 1999, its 創立81周年 (81st Anniversary) in 2005 (this was really significant because a shogi board has 81 squares) and its 創立90周年 (90th Anniversary) in 2014. The word 創立 (sōritsu) means founding, establishment, etc. and none of these anniversary dates would make any sense at all if the JSA considered is founding year to be 1947; They literally do not add up. They do make sense, on the other hand, if 1924 is the year the JSA considers itself to have been founded. The "Art of Shogi" by Hosking (and perhaps some other books as well) also makes reference to "1947", but I believe now as when I first read that book that the year 1947 is misleading. The problem then becomes how reliable does Wikipedia consider the JSA's official website to be according to WP:PSTS. I think it's probably as reliable a site as we are going to find, but I am interested in hearing what others say. For what it's worth, the JSA's Japanese Wikipedia article pretty much follows the timeline given on JSA's official website. There is also this archived JSA page which gives a list of the some of the events it was planning to celebrate its 81st Anniversary as well as this Kyodo article and this blog post by shogi professional Takayuki Yamasaki which talk about the 81st Anniversary Party held in Osaka in November 2005. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 01:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Shikamaru Nara of Naruto[edit]

Not sure how this edit made by 199.126.36.103 is an improvement. In my opinion there are three problems with it.

  1. The forst problem is that this edit does not seem to add information designed to improve the reader's understanding of shogi, or even shogi in popular culture. So, Shikamara Nara of Naruto has never been beaten in shogi. How does knowing that improve the reader's understanding of shogi? It may improve their understanding of Shikamara Nara or of Naruto, but not shogi or shogi impact on popular culture. Seems like nothing but a trivial bit of information that doesn't improve the article per WP:IINFO and WP:WONTWORK
  2. The second problem is that this edit does not seem to be accurately reflecting the source it is citing. The source says, "Well-noted for his strategic and tactical skills, he is most commonly seen winning in games requiring a methodical approach like shōgi, having never lost to Asuma.". The source does not say that Shikamaru has never been beaten in shogi. I have no idea as to Asuma is. I am assuming Asuma is another character from Naruto. Even if this information was important to understanding shogi's impact on popular culture, "having never lost to Asuma" and "having never lost" are quite different in meaning. This seems to be unintentional synthesis or original research of what the cited source is really saying. So, the verifiability of the information added is not clear.
  3. The third problem is the cited source itself. This Naruto Wiki is a user generated source, so there is some question as to how reliable it is per WP:RS. UGCs, which includes wikis, may be used as sources if the "material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users." I looked at that page and that site and could find no such statement. I did find lots of inline citations to various pages of Naruto, but none of them were specifically related to Shikamaru Nara having never been beaten in shogi. If the cited source is not reliable, then the information added becomes problematic per WP:UNSOURCED. If the source was the only problem, then adding a {{citation needed}} would probably be OK. However, as stated in one and two above, there are other problems as well so just adding a template does not seem an appropriate course of action.

Popular culture references should be information that improves the reader's understanding of the relationship of shogi to popular culture. They should be things that show how popular culture significantly affects shogi or how shogi significantly affects popular culture. I am not familiar at all with Naruto, but I am aware that shogi plays some sort of role in its narrative. So, any information added should show how shogi has impacted Naruto or vice versa. If Naruto's impact on shogi's popularity is significant and can be properly sourced, then add that. If shogi is a critical part of understanding Naruto and that can be properly sourced, then add that. Plot summaries or simple statements about a particular character's attributes may work well in Wikipedia articles about Naruto or Shikamaru Nara, but they don't work well in this article. Please discuss if you feel differently. - Marchjuly (talk) 13:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment The subject of Shikamaru has already been brought up on here six years ago on "Talk:Shogi". I didn't check the archives like I should have per WP:EXHAUST so sorry for the double thread. Anyway, I am not sure how to combine the two threads or whether it is even appropriate to do so in this case. If another editor does know how then please feel free to do so. Just be advised that my edit sum to this edit does specifically refer to this particular talk page post. Now regarding the archived post, it says Can someone please put a Shogi in pop culture here, so i can read about how well Shikamaru Nara can play it. In my opinion, this kind of information is not what Wikipedia is about at all. Shikamaru is a fictional character which means that their shogi playing ability is also fictional, and thus cannot possibly be verified per WP:V. Moreover, such information seems more suitable for a Shikamaru fan page than a Wikipedia article. Again, if people feel differently, please discuss. - Marchjuly (talk) 00:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Sub-commander Kozou Fuyutsuki[edit]

For the same reasons given in Talk:Shogi#Shikamaru Nara of Naruto, I am not sure how any of the information about "Rebuild" or "Sub-commander Kozou Fuyutsuki" improves the reader's understanding of shogi or shogi in pop culture. This seems to be nothing more than another trivial mention of shogi and anime per WP:IINFO. Also, it is not sourced so per WP:UNSOURCED it can be removed. Unlike the "Shion no O", etc. information, nothing of significance is being claimed so simply adding adding a {{citation needed}} seems inappropriate. Please discuss if you feel differently. - Marchjuly (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2014 (UTC)