Talk:Sic

Moved from User talk:Snalwibma

(1) Hello. My name is Dean Dwight Camp. I don't know who you are or what your story is, but I provided sources citing MLA 4th edition and "A Grammar Book for You and I (oops, Me): All the Grammar You Need to Succeed in Life" by C. Edward Good informing English language users that 'sic' is "always" enclosed by brackets when used inside quoted material. I provided the book's title, author, and page number. Do you have any sources indicating either that these sources are disreputable or that sic is 'sometimes' or "generally" not enclosed within brackets when inside quoted material? I ask you this because you continue to replace my editing with your editing that is wrong information. If you do not have any sources to cite your claim that sic is "generally used" where I had made a universal claim that sic is "always used", then please stop deleting the changes I made or the changes I will make because your deletion does not help the Wikipedia user's understand either the grammar rules provided by these two sources or, more importantly, help the Wikipedia user's understand the common usage of 'sic' within the context of communicating to the reader that a quote has been transcribed verbatim or when the writer can communicate his or her themes, ideas, or thesis effectively by ridiculing a quoted source. . (2) I provided two examples of 'sic' being used. One example was "Using sic normally" and the second example was "Using sic to ridicule" "example 2". I have placed the previous full stop outside the quote because it's my own style if that is acceptable for you. The following is an editing I had made that you had deleted:

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Using 'sic' normally Example 1 The following is an example of 'sic' being used by Patrick V. Kirch under normal academic conditions to quote material from Marshall Sahlins:

As Sahlins once remarked, Hawai'i took "the primitive contradiction between the domestic and public economies to an ultimate crisis—revealatory [sic] it seems not only of this disconformity but of the economic and political limits of kinship society."49 (Kirch 40).[34] In this example, "revealatory" should be 'revelatory'.

Two circumstances set the context for this quoted material. (1) Patrick V. Kirch, who is the author of "Controlled Comparison and Polynesian Cultural Evolution", is informing the reader that the quoted spelling error, "revealatory", is not a mistake he made in transcription, but that the quoted material from Marshall Sahlins, who is author of "Stone Age Economics", was originally misspelled.[34][35] (2) The last circumstance is that Kirch is using Sahlins's quoted material to support his essay's themes and ideas, which were that Hawai'i's politics and society transformed comparatively more than two other Polynesian Societies from the same Ancient Polynesian Society (APS).

Using 'sic' to ridicule A bracketed sic may also be used as a form of ridicule by drawing attention to the original writer's mistakes in an attempt to disparage the quoted source and prejudice the reader against the source. The use of sic could commit the fallacy, appeal to ridicule, whether intentional or not, because using sic highlights perceived irregularities. The application of sics with the intent to disparage has been called the "benighted use" because it creates a "false sense of superiority" in its users.[8]

Example 1 The following is an example of 'sic' being used by The Times to ridicule the quoted source, which is Walmart. This example demonstrates how the interpolation of a sic can subtly discredit a quoted statement:

Warehouse has been around for 30 years and has 263 stores, suggesting a large fan base. The chain sums up its appeal thus: "styley [sic], confident, sexy, glamorous, edgy, clean and individual, with it's [sic] finger on the fashion pulse."[18] In this example, 'styley' should be 'styled' or 'stylish' and 'it's', which is a contraction of 'it' and 'is', should be 'its', which is the possessive form of the pronoun 'it'.

Four circumstances set the context for this quoted material. (1) Walmart could have used italic type if they were intentionally trying to introduce new terms. (2) Walmart did not use italic type. (3) "The Times" could have contacted Walmart requesting a corrected sum of "its appeal" prior to printing their paper. (4) The last circumstance setting the context is that "The Times" either did not contact Walmart again or did contact them again, but printed this quoted material anyway.

Example 2 The following is an example of 'sic' being used by the main author, Pratap Chatterjee, to ridicule the quoted author, who is Robert 'Butch' Gatlin:

Perhaps he realized that trouble was inevitable, or because he realized that he could make more money if he set up his own subcontracting company, on February 15, 2004, Gatlin sent a terse letter to his bosses, which read: "This project has grown to such proportion and the issues and problems which have ensured [sic], I feel my leadership and management are ineffectifve [sic] and nonproductive. I therefore request to tenure [sic] my resignation with this project, effectife [sic] immediately."68 (Chatterjee 127)[36] In this example, "ensured" should have been 'ensued', "ineffectifve" should have been 'ineffective', "tenure" should have been 'tender', and "effectife" should have been 'effective' (Chatterjee 127).[36]

Six circumstances set the context for this quoted material. (1) Robert is supposed to be professional and educated: "Capouya's man in charge of engineering and construction was fifty-five-year-old Robert Bruce "Butch" Gatlin from Tennessee, who had worked for the Army Corps for thirty-two years, including several years as the commander for the agency's Texas coastal district" (Chatterjee 62-63).[36] (2) Robert's previously cited correspondence with his boss used in the previous example was a matter of official record, should have been performed correctly, but instead was incorrect four times. (3) The substance of Robert's letter expressing that he intended to quit his job because the work was too big, too hard, or too complex is contradictory and ironic because Robert later took a sub-contracting job for Halliburton/KBR doing the same work he previously did directly for Halliburton/KBR as an employee: "Three former Halliburton/KBR senior managers would stand out: Terry Hall...Butch Gatlin, the man whom Halliburton/KBR hired to prepare for the invasion, who would also set up his own company and apply to Halliburton/KBR for the very work he used to supervise... and, finally, Gatlin's boss Al Neffgen" (Chatterjee 113).[36] (4) The writer, Pratap Chatterjee, has drawn attention to the original writer's mistakes, three of which are probably keyboard typos and one of which is probably a result of Robert Gatlin either not recognizing a phonetic distinction between "tenure" and 'tender' or not knowing that the two terms have different meanings, by using "[sic]" four times within a two sentence quote. This abundant use of '[sic]' draws attention to the original writer's mistakes. (5) Drawing attention to Robert Gatlin's mistakes ridicules him. In doing so, Chatterjee supports his chapter's theme, which is "Corruption in Kuwait". And in doing this, Chatterjee supports his book's theme, which is to expose "corporate malfeasance and political cronyism" (Chatterjee cover). (6) The last circumstance setting the context is that Chatterjee could not have accomplished any of these literary goals as effectively if he had quietly edited the mistakes of Gatlin instead of ridiculing Gatlin because ridicule causes the reader to stop and reflect upon Chatterjee's themes. (Internet, Wikipedia, Sic, 16:47, 10 December 2011‎ 58.64.121.25 (talk)‎ (30,255 bytes) (→Formatting) (undo) (Tag: section blanking))

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(3) I am not sure what your credential are in regards to English language usage, but I would like to hear more from you about your justification for deleting my editing under such rational as "rubbish", "garbled stuff", "it's incorrect", "further tweaks to opening", and "personal opinion, advice, and a certaian [sic] quantity of nonsense" (Internet, Wikipedia, Sic, Revision history of Sic, 10:14, 11 2012 Snalwibma (talk / contribs) (21,006 bytes)). If you noticed, I just used "[sic]" when citing you because you misspelled 'certain' as "certaian". I did not quite 'copyedit' you, the term of which should be two words or should be a hyphenated word, because I am seeking to establish three points: (A) I would like to use "sic" as a teaching aid for you to learn how to use sic in normal conditions, (B) I would like to ridicule you because the act of ridicule demonstrates how an author can use ridicule to make a point, support a thesis, or support a claim, and (C) I find that using "sic" for your quoted material is ironic given the topic of concern is the use of "sic". Please freel free to use sic if you would like to respond to these comments, such as if you notice a spelling error, such as in this sentence.

(4) Could you please establish what your objective normative standards are for "rubbish", indicate to me where you considered my editing was "garbled stuff", provide an argument that I made factual errors prompting you to claim that "it's incorrect", explain why "tweaks" are prohibited, and establish where my personal opinion, advice, and a certain quantity of nonsense" were exhibited?

(5) If you feel that I have unfairly or unjustly shifted the burden of proof to you requesting that you cite your reasons for deleting my editing, then please do the following: (A) provide citation supporting your arguments and claims that you do not need citations for your reasons and claims, (B) stop censoring what I edit because what I edit is correct or more informative than what you replace my editing with that is either incorrect or less informative, and (C) stop vandalizing this Wikipedia article using the definition of "vandalism" that Wikipedia provided, though I do not consider censorship of information as vandalism but instead consider that vandalism relates only to the destruction of property that is more tangible than internet information.

(6) Here is a list of sources I have cited that have been deleted or ignored:

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[33] "A Grammar Book for You and I (Oops, Me)": C. Edward Good, "A Grammar Book for You and I (Oops, Me): All the Grammar You Need to Succed in Life", Capital Books, 2002, page 390. [34] "Natural Experiments of History" an anthology edited by Jared Diamond and James A. Robinson, Chapter 1, "Controlled Comparison and Polynesian Cultural Evolution", Patrick V. Kirch, The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2010, pages 40 & 52. [35] "Stone Age Economics": Marshall Sahlins, Chicago, 1972, page 141, as cited in endnote 49, from "Natural Experiments of History", chapter 1, "Controlled Comparison and Polynesian Cultural Evolution", pages 40 & 52.[34] [36] "Halliburton's Army": Pratap Chatterjee, "Halliburton's Army: How a Well-Connected Texas Oil Company Revolutionized the Way America Makes War", Nation Books, 2009, pages 62-63, 113, & 127. [37] "Packing the Court: The Rise of Judicial Power and the Coming Crisis of the Supreme Court", publisher Penguin Press HC; 1st edition, 2009, pages 176 and the citation of the quote is on page 297 following the second note 176. [38] Burn's citation is quoted verbatim, including the initial bracketed phrase: "["before we allow"] : the text of Douglas's stay is reprinted as an appendix to his dissent in Rosenberg v. U.S., 346 U.S. 273 (1953), quoted at 321."

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(7) I have read many books, have a degree in Political Science from Boise State University, teach English in Thailand to 10-12 year olds, and have a TESOL certificate. My credentials are not as impressive as your own. However, I would like to follow basic rules of debate, argumentation, rhetoric, reason, and the three laws of logic, which have been mislabeled as "Laws of thought" by Wikipedia in order to sort this conflict we have between us out concerning common usage of "sic". I am open to learning more about the use of sic from you if what you provide is reasonable and cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.64.121.220 (talk) 15:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I assume you are the anon editor who has added various bits of text over the last couple of days. My reasons for deleting the new material are in my edit summary: here. My only other comment is WP:TLDR. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 15:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)