Talk:Sigmund Freud

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Sigmund Freud was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: July 29, 2006
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Contents

[edit] Between Freud's Ideas and Neurology

In the lead, this appears: "in the past ten years advances in the field of neurology have shown evidence for many of his theories". This may, in fact be true, but it is controversial and therefore needs some references to be included in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Writerz (talk • contribs) 00:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Stuff like that assertion shouldn't be in the lede at all. A simple, neutral reference to the controversial and contested nature of Freud's work should be enough -- and indeed there used to be such a line, until the latest skirmish of the 'Freud wars' saw it trampled out of existence in the endless to-and-fro... Pfistermeister (talk) 21:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Tending to agree with these criticisms, at least unless the statement has a good cite.
In the section "Freud's legacy: Psychotherapy" -

"Recently, the field of neuro-psychoanalysis has shown strong support for Freud's theories among neuroscientists and researchers such as Oliver Sacks[46], Mark Solms[47], Jaak Panksepp[48], Douglas Watt, António Damásio[49], Eric Kandel, Joseph E. LeDoux[50], and others, by pointing out brain structures relating to Freud's concepts such as libido, drives, the unconscious, and repression."

- seems very vague. Can we do anyhting with this? -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Especially since "many of his theories" could refer to writings other than those cited above (which are, as the above poster noted, very vaguely described in any case). For example, someone could (mis)interpret this as meaning there is empirical evidence for the Oedipus Complex--surely not what was intended. Quite frankly it sounds like something written by a Freud-worshipper, and should be edited at one level or another. Historian932 (talk) 17:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Freud's influence on psychoanalysis and psychiatry

My understanding is that Freud was a pioneer in both talk based psychoanalysis and medicinal based. Today, these fields are almost two seperate branches. I have heard the Fred M. Levin believes that the two fields should be combined and that emotion and brian chemistry are phsyically linked. Is this true? Has anyone heard of Fred M. Levin? I will hang up and listen for your answer.

No, he was a pioneer in the talk based cure. He felt that analysts should be physicians so they could recognize when the problem was medical, but he himself, while toying with medical applications, made no contribution to medical treatment of neurlosis, only psychoanalytic treatment. Today psychoanalysis and psychiatrists are often entirely different people, with different theories and methods. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I've the same imression; tho I find such interesting, since for a very long time, a medical degree was required by law to practice psychoanalysis (this was either true in New York, or nation-wide (I've forgotten)Slarty2 (talk) 06:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


The relationship between the medical and psychoanalytic fields is indeed quite an interesting one. For sure, the American psychoanalytic model was a medical one for quite a long time. It is still predominantly so. Yet it is not exclusively so. However the American model has not often been the case internationally. Great Britain, for example, identified psychoanalysis as a separate (but related) branch of the medical establishment with its own criteria for diagnosis and treatment back in the 1920s. Thus lay analysis is a common fact in British psychoanalysis. This is the case in other national/continental contexts--among others the French and South American. Freud, of course, made the case that a medical degree is not necessary for psychoanalytic training in "The Question of Lay Analysis." He went so far as to claim that a medical training would be counter to a psychoanalytic one, given the number of prejudices that the former would introduce so as to interfere with the latter.

[I am also happy to have corrected the spelling mistakes that more than one of my colleagues have committed.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdh202 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The reason I brought up Fred Levin is that I created a page for him and it was deleted. He is a prominent Jewish American psychoanalyst and author of several books. I was hoping to see if anyone had heard of him. As for his philosophy on the mind, I think Levin was influenced by Freud's ideas such as about the "physical" nature of emotion on the connection in the brain. If feelings due have a physical impact on the brain, than perhaps the convese is true. Thanks Mwalla (talk) 15:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)mwalla

What; a psychoanalyst whos ideas were shaped by Freud?! Shocking! However; you should arm yourself w/the best evedence of notoriety you can and go about trying to reinstate your article, since I am guessing such would be mopre productive than bandying his name about, on this articles discussion page. Be bold (despite my jab @ the start of this comment; I wish you encouraged.

I don't think Freud was actually a psychiatrist. The author might want to check this because I remember reading something about Jews being unable to practise psychiatry. He was undoubtedly a physician and a psychologist but I don't think he was a psychiatrist. Neilho (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Section?

Why is there no critique section in this article? For example there is a "challenges" section in the Piaget article; "critics" for Vygotsky; and "criticism" for John Dewey. Yet nothing on the pages of Freud, Jung, Adler. Vajrapoppy (talk) 06:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Some criticisms are mentioned in Sigmund_Freud#Freud.27s_legacy. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Far from being enough, I'm afraid. There must be a distinct, clear section with potential warnings for possible fraud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karatsobanis (talk • contribs) 15:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Psychoanalysis has nothing with medicine

Psychoanalysis has nothing with medicine, because it doesn't cures, any organic problem. Psychoanalysis can help many people?Yes, such as spiritism and voodoo also help persons without, no organic/real problems.Agre22 (talk) 17:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)agre22

In most cases, psychoanalysis is used to treat problems caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain (or something similar) that cannot be cured any other way. These are generally very real problems that cannot be cured by drugs or surgery. Psychoanalysis is not a religion by any stretch of the imagination, and comparing it to spiritism and voodoo is degrading and insulting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.201.74 (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually there is no unambiguous empirical evidence for the "biochemical imbalance" theory (or hypothesis). This does not mean that psychoanalysis, or other talk-based therapies can not help, heal, and maybe even "cure" people of certain of their problems, just that this aspect of the biomedical paradigm of mental illness, like many others, are in fact still hypothetical despite the overwhelming amount of anecdotal data which seem to support its premises (combined with the fact that it is taken as fact by most members of the public, media, and even mental health professions themselves). I agree that the comparison(s) to voodoo and/or spiritism are meant to be derogatory, having said that some followers of those systems may find the comparison to psychoanalysis insulting, insofar as *none* of them are really *empirically* verifiable one way or the other. Historian932 (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Psychoanalysis is falling, but such as voodoo the human nature,lents persons to belive, in absurds.Prozak replaced psychoanalysis many times, with far less time, money and more good results.Voodoo isn't worse or better than psychoanalysis to treat nothing, with real organic causes.Only imagination "diseases" can be really treated with spiritism, voodoo and psychoanalysis.Agre22 (talk) 18:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)agre22

[edit] suggestion in science section

I've no expertise in this field, but it seems to me that many in the field of Evolutionary Psychology/sociobiology also respect Freud as an early theorist (perhaps THE pioneer in thinking of human psychology in terms of our evolution. I shouldn't say so but (will anyway) I think such QUITE PROPPER (for lack of a better term that comes emediately to mind)! Since I really have no expertise here, I can only hope that someone more knowledgable than myself will find my assertion meritouse/valuable/viable/adequate, and therefore include something to that effedct in the science section of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slarty2 (talk • contribs) 06:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Why Freud rather than James? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] question

I have two sources of equal validity. One says that Freud proved everything he wrote. The other says that he was a theorist, and not a very good one. How can they be used? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.162.183 (talk) 18:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

Jewish is a religion that includes the ethnic groups Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi. A Mizrahi Jew and an Ashkenazi would NOT have the same ethnicity just because they're Jewish. So therefore, his ethnicity in not Jewish but Ashkenazi. LeeMulod (talk) 23:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Austerlitz -- 88.72.14.169 (talk) 15:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't add. No evidence that it is a free image. Ward3001 (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I do not add, though it seems to be a free image, like this one 9.
It's impossible to know if an image is free simply by looking at it. We need much more detail, including the year the photo was taken, who took the photo, whether it was ever copyrighted and when. Ward3001 (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The text says: "Freud and his mother Amalia, in her apartment in Vienna, May 5, 1926". Just have a look on the text beneath the photo [3]. Additionally it says that it is part of the Sigmund Freud Collection. Maybe it has been copyrighted, maybe not. [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.210.175 (talk) 20:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
"Maybe it has been copyrighted, maybe not": In that case, the default decision is that we cannot use it. Unless it can be clearly demonstrated that the image is not copyrighted, or the copyright no longer applies, or permission to use has been given, or the image otherwise is considered fair use for our purposes (not the case), we cannot use the image. Ward3001 (talk) 21:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Austerlitz -- 88.75.210.175 (talk) 19:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Since there is no lemma Mothers and their famous sons we really cannot use the image. :Austerlitz -- 88.75.208.119 (talk) 10:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Weblink Somebody wants to add this link to section Weblinks [5]?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.14.169 (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't add, per WP:EL. Ward3001 (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] No criticism?

Why doesn't this article feature a section concerning the heavy criticism under which Freud's theories have fallen???

For a variety of reasons, separate sections on criticism are discouraged on Wikipedia. Instead, criticism should be incorporated into the most appropriate section on the ideas that are being criticized. That is done in this article and related articles. You have to read the separate articles on Freud's ideas; links are provided in the Freud article. It would be inappropriate stylistically and with regard to WP:WEIGHT to repeat the entirety of the criticisms contained in Psychosexual development, for example, in the Freud article. The criticisms are there; you just have to read to find them. Ward3001 (talk) 17:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

No, the reader is not supposed to try for two hours to find some minor critisism buried somewhere. The article is biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karatsobanis (talk • contribs) 15:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

More than agree with last poster. Seeing as Darwin's original works on evolution has criticism sections from the evolution theory standpoint in his article and evolution's article in relation to the original theory being ridiculously outdated, even though evolution science has continued to evolve (no pun intended) and progress, it should also be included here. Freud's original ideas have almost all be thoroughly refuted and replaced with improved and more accurate models and theories. Nobody should, as the previous posted stated, "try for two hours to find some minor criticism" of Freud because many of those who here have a biased, and disgusting, obsession with removing criticism of Freud's outdated (and it is) work that dismisses adding such criticism by majority take-over. Despite sources. Something AGAINST the rules. Darwin's outdated specific ideas on evolution are still taught when learning about evolution, but that they are outdated does not mean the entire current improved version of evolutionary theory isn't based on it. Same goes for Freud's work. Include it. 203.171.199.159 (talk) 15:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC) Sutter Cane

[edit] Odd mixture of biography and theory

Much of the material concerning Freud's theory (unconscious, psychosexual development, etc.) should be moved to the article on psychoanlayis, as this article is supposed to be about the man, Freud, not his theory, Freudianism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.28.17 (talk) 19:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The man Freud

Maybe in future there can be more on it within the articel.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.213.180 (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Freud and Jung.

To expand on Freud and Jung and the argument that almost Trashed Psychology at it's beginnings. It was not simply a disagreement between Freud and Jung. Freud was becoming an absolute propagandist against anything Spiritual. He once drew Jung aside and said; .'we must turn Psychoanalysis into a bulwark, a fortress, against the 'Black Tide of Occultism'. Jung was becoming increasing interested in (some would obsessed with) the spiritual. To Freud, Jung was becoming as crazy as his patients. Jung was telling people about conversing with 'Spirit Guides' who would lead him into the Truth. Another point not mentioned is Freud's mouth Cancer. His life long love of Cigars (he started smoking at the age of 9 at the behest of his father who told him; 'son, smoking is the cheapest and best joy of life, smoke as much as you can'), caused a life long medical condition that led to him having most of his jaw removed. There was also the adulation of Freud by the Artistic Surrealist Painters notably Salvador Dali. Dalis' meeting with Freud was almost sensational. Dali declared before meeting Freud; 'I want to appear to Freud, as I imagine he imagines me!'. Freud's life long hatred of the Occult seems to have left him shortly before he died. He confided to a friend that he felt he had waisted his life as a Psychiatrist; 'I would if I could, have spent my life studying Parapsychology', he said. Another major difference between Freud and Jung was the fledgling Soviet Union. Freud saw it as a Social Experiment. Jung saw Communism as pure Evil. Another point that irritated Freud was his patients, he came to see them as mostly 'trash', (the meaning of the German word he used seems unclear).Johnwrd (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] wording puts improper weight on William James

The following statement comes from the seciton on the unconcious:

...William James, in his monumental treatise on psychology, examined the way Schopenhauer, von Hartmann, Janet, Binet and others had used the term 'unconscious' and 'subconscious....

The way the statement is worded seems to put the weight on William James.  I don't know the work cited but it seems the important point of the sentence should be that Schopenhauer, von Hartmann, Janet, and Binet are the ones who actually did the early thinking on the concept of the unconcious, and that James wrote a book compiling and investigating their ideas.  Therefore, I would suggest the sentence be worded with the philosphers names first and ending with a a remark that this was organized by William James.  I do not actually know the reference given so maybe someone who has could comment on this issue of the genesis of the concept of the unconcious.

--Baumgaertner (talk) 00:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

A bigger problem with that statement is the way it displays the terrible intellectual illiteracy of such wikipedia lists: someone who doesn't know what s/he's talking about sticks a load of names together and imagines they all "used the terms 'unconscious' and 'subconscious'" -- whereas in reality (i) not one of those thinkers had either of those actual words available in their own language; (ii) all those thinkers all used different words derived from different roots; (iii) they were all disussing notions arising from different philosophical traditions that cannot be lumped together; and (iv) they meant radically different things by the terms they used. Thus the statement as it stands manages to be false, meaningless and witless all at the same time. I stress: this is genuine intellectual illiteracy, and its persistence in wikipeia shows just how utterly ignorant of cultural history the average wikipedian is: they think the English words that they know *apply to everything and everyone*... Pfistermeister (talk) 23:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps you should both consult William James The Principles of Psychology Vol I, Chapter X. Regards Motmit (talk) 08:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Why don't all of you consult chapter 6 first? it is where Dewey reviews ten "proofs" that there exists an unconsciousness, and disproves each in turn. Certainly when Dewey refers to sleep as an unconcscious state he is in no way talking about the sam thing as the unconscious Freud beleived to be partially revealed in dreams. In chapter 10 Dewey talks about the self, and he provides the Latin term, ego. Freud too used the laten term for ther German ich but this does not mean that Dewey was in any sense refering to what Freud called the "ego." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Pesonal life

Not much on Freuds ativity outside his carrer. Perhaps some more detail of his personal life and his works in the arts, his role in the early Zionist movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.143.197 (talk) 18:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

jordi id the bomb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.58.227.247 (talk) 22:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Nietzsche

The comment on Nietzsche seems poorly placed, since it is a section on Freud's philosophy rather than his interpretation of other philosophers. Also, the reading of Nietzsche purported is highly interpretive at its very best. Therefore it should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.158.12.2 (talk) 04:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Phrasing suggestion

The final paragraph of the opening is a bit complex.

Quote: "While many of Freud's ideas have fallen out of favor or have been modified by Neo-Freudians and at the close of the 20th century advances in the field of psychology began to show flaws in many of his theories, Freud's methods and ideas remain important in the history of clinical psychodynamic approaches. In academia, his ideas continue to influence the humanities and some social sciences."

Could possibly be changed to: "Many of Freud's ideas have fallen out of favor or have been modified by Neo-Freudians, and advances in the field of psychology began to show flaws in many of his theories at the end of the 20th century. However, Freud's methods and ideas remain important in the history of clinical psychodynamic approaches. In academia, his ideas continue to influence the humanities and some social sciences."

Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.140.106 (talk) 21:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

I have added a few quotes about Freud's later life. Cigars and books are important to him as a mechanist and in a radically different way than what they might become for Carl Jung. We should highlight that. We should highlight basis by which their two schools of thought diverged.--Qluah (talk) 22:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Freud's death corrections

Last Years

  This section is no longer correct, as I will document. In these changes it needs to be noted that for much of the info on Freud's death, Max Schur was the only source, and he gave his (incorrect) version decades after Freud's death, with little in the way of any contemporaneous notes available to aid his recounting. My suggested changes follow, with references.

"In September 1939 he prevailed on his doctor and friend Max Schur to assist him in ending his life [17a]. With the family's concurrence, Schur administered two doses of morphine hours apart, but then left with Freud still alive. Dr. Josephine Stross, another long-time friend of the Freud's, especially of Anna, administered a final dose of morphine that resulted in Freud's death on 23 September 1939 [18, 18a]."

17a Schur, Max (1972) Freud: Living and Dying, International Universities Press, pp. 526-529.

18a Lacoursiere, Roy (2008). Freud's death: Historical truth and biographical fictions, American Imago, 65, pp. 107-128. Roy Lacoursiere (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] What is with the secound paragraph talking about the many flaws in his theories, sounds really bias when...

practically all of his core ideas on the ego, consciousness, narcissism, etc etc. have held true to day. Just sounds awkward on a encyclopedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sigmund_Freud"