Talk:Simon Wessely

This is a controversial topic, which may be disputed. Please read the talk page and discuss substantial changes there before making them. Please read this message from William Pietri before piling in

odd shenanigans

I put in stuff about Wessely and cited his own writing and it got wiped and my comment on sciencewatchers page got wiped. I registered an account also but the schmuck didn't post on my page. Wessely wrote articles for UNUM- cited, He thinks soldier's shot at dawn shouldn't be pardoned- cited. Geez what is it with these people. Now the page is locked by some guy who thinks he's a wolf. Reads like some soviet style mantra to me at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catherine Sanderson (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

All these additions are very similar to the ones that used to come from a particular editor who was active in the summer of 2008, and was banned. It is unfortunate and a bit odd that you have chosen to bring these edits back, all at the same time. They were all discussed in a fair amount of detail. This talkpage and its archives should contain a record. I think reopening these discussions is not a good idea, and you are strongly advised to read important content guidelines such as WP:NPOV, WP:COATRACK and WP:BLP, before making any further changes. JFW | T@lk 00:10, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Criticisms

So, what exactly is the point in having a opposition and criticism section without detailing what the (well documented) criticisms actually are? This article looks like it is being censored by Wessely supporters to me. G-13114 (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

You just need to remember this is a biography, so you can't just go putting in a whole bunch of rants from fringe groups - please read WP:BLP. The main criticism boils down to the fact that lots of patients simply don't like the idea that CFS might be psychiatric - we can say that if there is a source. All the other so-called criticisms seem to be conspiracy theories and ill-informed rants.

Also please stop saying that CBT/GET research is "by his own studies", as that is clearly WP:OR and WP:POV.

Also please assume good faith. Nobody here is a 'wessely supporter'. On the other hand there definitely seem to be a lot of Wessely bashers here. --sciencewatcher (talk) 15:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I did put in sources. Which you removed. Which were well written and well reseached, not "ill-informed rants". If you had read them you would know this. Also it seems a bit odd to me that we have a section about criticism without stating what the criticisms are or who is making them, which is what I attemted to do before you reverted them. The fact remains that Mr Wessely and his views are extremely controversial. This article barely touches upon this. I'm sure there must be a wikipedia policy somewhere that says all aspects of a subject should be covered. Well having an article about Mr Wessely without covering the huge controversy he has generated must be in violation of it.

Also the criticism against him is not simply that. It is also that he and his supporters have ignored a vast body of evidence published in respected medical journals that ME/CFS is biological in origin. And exert a vastly dispropotionate influence upon the UK medical community, to the detriment of other avenues of research. G-13114 (talk) 16:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source for those statements then you can add them to the article. A pressure group is not a reliable source for that kind of information. --sciencewatcher (talk) 18:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, if you read WP:BLP it says "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone". --sciencewatcher (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I can't say that I've been following these changes closely, and I would definitely say I'm closer to a Wessely basher than a supporter, but I have to agree with SW that there are more studies than just Wessely's own that indicate some benefit for CBT/GET. Of course, most of these studies fail to mention that the benefits are mild in most cases, comparable with the effects for other chronic illness, and often have numerous other flaws, but the benefits are still demonstrably there for some.

Due to the controversy that surrounds anything to do with CFS, I would suggest bringing up your proposed changes here on the talk page first so we can hash out the merits and/or issues around adding them to the page. Unfortunately, many CFS sites and forums take things as a given that haven't been proven in fact (which is why I avoid most of them, personally), but on Wikipedia, it's fact we have to document. By bringing up the proposed information here, we have a chance to investigate it and decide whether it's fact rather than getting into edit wars that only serve to make the environment more hostile. – RobinHood70 ^talk 19:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion: remove the Hooper ref and just use the Guardian, which is reasonably unbiased. I'd suggest paraphrasing the summary at the top of the Guardian article to describe the criticism. --sciencewatcher (talk) 19:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion: sciencewatcher state whether he is for or against Mr. Wessely or totally indifferent. Only one TRUTHFUL answer would allow him to continue editing. All his edits read to me like he he is a big fan of Mr. W. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catherine Sanderson (talk • contribs) 19:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

(undent) If a secondary source of similar quality to the Guardian article could be found, of course we would be duty bound to include it. JFW | T@lk 22:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe the Guardian article is unbiased, that is you point of view. It reads like a whitewash to me. It has an interview with Wessely but no-one from the other side. I've found this article also from the Guardian which does a better job of describing the controversy http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/may/13/me-chronic-fatigue-syndrome I'd prefer that that was used instead of the current one. Also I believe that the Hooper ref proves that the views of the anti Wessely people have influence within the medical community, and are not confined to the "lunatic fringe". G-13114 (talk) 02:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Based on the 2010 Guardian article, the only things one can say about Wessely are:

• There is internet vitriol directed at him (hmm, that sounds familiar)
• He believes there may be viral triggers, but psychosocial therapies may help
• He ran the studies on which the NICE guidelines are based
• He started the first NHS treatment unit
• He co-authored a study that failed to find XMRV, but the results are not accepted by ME/CFS activists for that reason

An excellent source, but it should be added to the article rather than replace the Burne article. They are complimentary. JFW | T@lk 08:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

that is a very sensible thing to do. To include both sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catherine Sanderson (talk • contribs) 20:33, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that the criticism section is also currently in violation of WP:WEASEL. With phrases like "critics say" (who?). Currently all we have is a vague assertion that Wessely has been criticised (by whom, about what?) Should it not be made clear who exactly the critics of Wessely are? This is also what I was trying to do before my additions were reverted. G-13114 (talk) 07:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The article should reflect which charities support or oppose Wessely's work. ie if you were doing research into cancer you' be in big doo doo if Cancer Research found your work totally unacceptable. Most of the ME charities from the MEAssociation through to the 25% group don't support Wessely's research and see it as irrelevant to patients. So you gotta have that in!

See ya- Catherine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catherine Sanderson (talk • contribs) 16:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

@Catherine: How is who supports or opposes Wessely encyclopedic? – RobinHood70 ^talk 18:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

RobinHood70, What we currently have is: CFS patient activist groups have strongly criticized Wessely.[26] In an article on chronic fatigue syndrome, The Guardian calls criticism from CFS patient advocates a "vendetta".[27]. Which patient activist groups? Criticised him about what? Is this not in clear violation of WP:WEASEL which states:

Phrases such as these present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint. They are referred to as "weasel words" by Wikipedia contributors. They can pad out sentences without adding any useful information and may disguise a biased view. Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proven should be clearly attributed

G-13114 (talk) 18:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a different issue from discussing which charities support or oppose Wessely's work. I think the article could use a lot of help with some of its wordings, but I was specifically addressing Catherine's side-point of charities. – RobinHood70 ^talk 19:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I gotta use words when I'm talking to you but it's a bit hard if you don't understand them batman robin. Lack of charity support for Wessely is hardly a side issue- right or wrong. I mean think just stop and think. Right you thought about it? You know you can't have an article on Wessely that doesn't mention the fact most charities and patients don't like him and don't support his work. He's the sheriff of Nottingham to the Leonard Jason Robin Hood.

So his not being liked has to go in. Also Wessely himself reports receiving large volumes of hate mail see here: http://www.meassociation.org.uk/?p=588 if he was doing some good folk would send him nice things :-) but instead they probably would like to post a brownie to him which is very wrong.

See ya all- Catherine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.117.80 (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Catherine(?) - if you're going to be rude to people, you'll just be banned (again?). WHO WAS I RUDE TO WHAT DO YOU MEAN (AGAIN?) MISTER?- CATHERINE

Nobody is denying that we should include this info - it's just a question of finding a source that doesn't violate WP:RS or WP:BLP. I had a look at the 2010 Guardian article, but it doesn't really say much about Wessely - just that there is 'internet vitriol', but it doesn't explain why. The 2002 Guardian article seems to go into more detail. --sciencewatcher (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with saying that he's not well-respected in the CFS community (to put it mildly), but creating a list of the specific charities who oppose or support him is rather unencyclopaedic to my way of thinking. As SW said, a source that outlines some of the criticism and/or critics—which may or may not name individuals or charities specifically—is what is needed here. In other words, it's one thing to say "Wessely's critics include numerous individuals, charities, and organizations<ref>some reference</ref>" but it's really not very useful or encyclopaedic as part of a short, general biography to say "Wessely's critics include laundry list of people each with a reference to prove it, laundry list of charities each with a reference to prove it, laundry list of organizations each with a reference to prove it". – RobinHood70 ^talk 02:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This is the value of secondary sources such as the Guardian articles. I personally think the 2010 article is entirely appropriate and quite informative, as long as we stick to the five things that I listed above. As concerning the possible WP:WEASEL problems, it is very easy to lift the name of actual critics such as Hooper from the article. Opinions collectively held by anonymous bodies are slightly less helpful unless they have made official statements that are then reproduced in secondary sources. JFW | T@lk 13:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If I was going to cut it down, I'd say that we should include the views of Malcolm Hooper and the Countess of Mar. As she is patron of several of the most outspoken ME charities I'd say her views were quite representative of them. G-13114 (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

We would need an airtight reference for Margaret Mar, especially after Turnberg of Cheadle stated that her statement in the Lords amounted to slander if not said inside the House. JFW | T@lk 14:19, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Can we include that some say he told Guy Chapman he was being harassed by Angela Kennedy and that Wessely's boss refused to deny or confirm whether he had or not?- no thought not but it is on all the forums with Guy Chapman's comments look: http://cfs-facts.blogspot.com/2008/02/wessely-and-harassment.html Catherine

I strongly doubt that. This is a clear example where a secondary source is not available (and blogs are definitely not reliable sources). We've had endless discussions over this, and over certain statements in the Gibson report that could not be directly verified. It should be left out. JFW | T@lk 20:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

For anyone interested, see here. Catherine, we all know you are really Angela Kennedy, and if you don't stop this stupid shenanigans you're just going to get banned again. You are just wasting everyone's time with this nonsense. --sciencewatcher (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wolff, you say "I doubt that" but Guy is the one who claims Wessely told him he was being harassed by Angela. As it happens I've also seen the original correspondence from Angela to IOP. So the blog is accurate. So I just wondered what you doubted Jacob? I'm not Angela by the way, I'm Catherine Sanderson my bio is on my talk page. You did however want sources regarding Vendettas so I found them for you sciencewelcher, so spread some comment luv! Catherine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Catherine Sanderson (talk • contribs) 21:42, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This has gone far enough. I had to remove the entire correspondence with the IOP again. I think Catherine has sufficienty exposed herself as being a One Click sock- or meatpuppet, and I have applied a suitable block. We have been over this so many times that it becomes tiresome. We always get the same lame character assassination, muckracking and dredging from an anonymous angry mob. Wikipedia has clear policies that prohibit all these things, because it is an encyclopedia and not a blog, messageboard, Facebook, Twitter, Myspace or whereever there is acrimony against a scientist trying to do his job. This talkpage will also be protected against non-autoconfirmed edits in view of previous disruption. JFW | T@lk 22:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! While you're doing admin things anyway, some of the last couple of edits (SW's post and Catherine's reply) might need Revision deletion, as I believe they would violate WP:OUTING, even though they're technically speculative. Or perhaps Revision deletion followed by re-posting the non-outing portions of their messages? – RobinHood70 ^talk 22:17, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The editor AK has previously edited here under her own name before being banned. I don't think they would therefore qualify as outing. If either Sciencewatcher or Catherine wants these posts scrubbed, they are free to make that request. JFW | T@lk 22:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I wasn't sure what policy was for that, and neither the outing or RD pages were particularly clear. – RobinHood70 ^talk 23:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Problems with G-13114's edits

- "while their have been threats against his life" doesn't make grammatical sense, and the previous version seems to be more npov and more closely matches the source. We should use 'extremists' because it isn't the average CFS patient who is doing this.

- putting a tag inside a direct quote doesn't seem correct.

- putting a tag inside the title of an article doesn't seem correct.

- tagging the entire opposition section seems to be pov.

The fact is that all this stuff is very well sourced. The fact that some patients don't believe Wessely has had threats against his life is irrelevant to wikipedia. If he says there have been threats against his life, then we put it in the article - it doesn't matter that he hasn't said exactly who those threats are from.

The only problem I noticed was the Hooper reference for 'activists'. Perhaps we need a better source for that, or maybe just more sources. --sciencewatcher (talk) 16:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)