Talk:Sinn Féin

'European Parliament' in bar charts

We need either to reach agreement on how the European Parliament is dealt with in the bar charts, or to delete it. The situation at the moment, where one constituency (NI) is shown, is arbitrary and not especially meaningful. Previously it was done on an all-Ireland basis, but what's to stop somebody from saying it should be done on an all-UK basis? Or that they have one seat out of 736 in the Parliament? What is it meant to show, anyway? If it is meant to show voting strength, then it should show the figure for the EUL-NGL (35/736), because that's who they vote with. If it is meant to show electoral support, then it can't be shown in a single bar, because they stand in multiple constituencies in two different jurisdictions. How it's done on "other party articles" is the least useful criterion of all. Who's to say if it's done right on other articles, or whether what is appropriate for one is automatically appropriate for all? Scolaire (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the EUL-NGL figure is the worst of all worlds as that's a wider coalition not the party itself. The European Parliament groups are a very long way from a single disciplined coherent party and usually when the interests of the national party conflict with the grouping, the former has the stronger pull on how the MEP votes. The infoboxes for all the other Irish or UK parties with MEPs show only the number of MEPs the party itself has, not the wider grouping. Perhaps two bars for the two jurisdictions is the best solution? Timrollpickering (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you do that? Then we can see if other editors have anything to say about it. Scolaire (talk) 23:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Scol. Let's get rid of the charts. Perhaps a couple of lines of text summarising the SF results would suffice? --BwB (talk) 15:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Woah! Let's be sure we're talking about the same thing. I said before that we should get rid of the tables in the 'Electoral Performance' sections of the article proper. I'm not proposing doing away with the bar charts in the infobox; I only said that we might have to lose the European Parliament if we couldn't agree on what it should show. Scolaire (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

1/736 is technically accurate rather meaningless as SF only contests seats in the 5 EP constituencies on the island of Ireland (Dublin, East, South, North-West and Northern Ireland). 1/15 is more accurate but how many readers will know that the 15 refers the island of Ireland EP seats (maybe in a footnote). I note that for the House of Commons the figure is 5/18 not 5/646 since SF only contest seats for HoC in NI. 35/746 for EUL-NGL is meaningless here. These boxes are designed for national parties and as SF is a transnational party, it often doesn't fit. The simplest solution would be to have 'Party seats / Total seats in body', so 5/646 and 1/736 for HoC and EP respectively. Snappy (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sinn Féin is an all Ireland Party, in fact it is the only all Ireland Party so why not treat it as such. Were clarification is needed add it. --Domer48_'fenian' 00:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

• In fact, Sinn Féin in NOT the only all Ireland Party. The Green Party, the Workers Party of Ireland, the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Party, People Before Profit Alliance, Communist Party of Ireland, Irish Socialist Network, Irish Republican Socialist Party and Eirigi are all organised on an All Ireland basis. Fianna Fail is also organising in Northern Ireland. Snappy (talk) 04:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Sinn Féin do not represent any EP constituency in Ireland, so surely 1/3 bar should remain. NB info on where Sinn Féin contested isn't necessary in the infobox - just where they were successful.--Chromenano (talk) 03:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think 1/3 would be best. Snappy (talk) 04:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Just as I thought, then: there is not even the beginnings of a consensus on this. All but one (the deliberately off-the-wall one) of my five options has somebody's support, and one editor is simultaneously supporting 1/736 and 1/3. The EP bar should be taken out of the infobox of this article unless and until there is some convergence of views. Scolaire (talk) 08:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I am supporting 1/3, just to make that clear. I said 1/736 was accurate if you also had 5/646. They have 1 seat in Northern Ireland EP constituency, just as they have 5 BHoC seats of the 18 they contest. Also, there is non consensus to remove it. Snappy (talk) 13:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead mate! --BwB (talk) 13:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've changed the EP section to 1/3 as per emerging consensus here. Snappy (talk) 14:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Let the emerging consensus emerge first seems to be normal. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Same problem with the UK parliament bar-chart, the other N. Irish parties are shown as a proportion of the UK total, but SF is shown as a proportion of the N. Irish total FOARP (talk) 14:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Why not just put (Irish seats) as done for the Welsh ones in the Plaid Cymru article.--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 15:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Gerry McHugh

Since Gerry McHugh left the Sinn Féin and joined Fianna Fail, it now has 27 MLAs. The chart in the right-hand column needs to be adjusted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.253.24 (talk) 02:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Give a source to say 27. Did you get it from a newspaper or...? ~ R.T.G 18:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

As there are sources that McHugh quit SF and now sits as an independent it's not really necessary for the ip to do that per Wikipedia:OR#Routine_calculations as 28 minus 1 makes 27. Also in this case primary sources are acceptable as there isn't a dispute over it. 27 here or here for example. The main question is if we're going to update those figures every time someone defects/resigns as then we have to keep updating it for local councillors. Much easier is to just make clear in the infobox by means of a footnote or whatever that those were the results of most recent relevant election. Valenciano (talk) 08:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Denis Donaldson

I have begun a rewrite of the 1983 to present section of the history. I feel that, while the Denis Donaldson story is important in itself, it is not sufficiently important to merit a full paragraph in an abbreviated history of the party. I propose either to take it altogether or to mention it briefly when talking about the collapse of the Assembly (which is not currently dealt with in the history at all). Scolaire (talk) 11:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Mention it briefly as you suggest. --BwB (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Moving content to "History of Sinn Féin"

I have partially reverted these edits of 7 July, and I think a word of explanation is warranted. First, the extra detail is more suited to History of Sinn Féin than this section, which is only a brief summary, so I have merged it in there. The phrase "extreme socialism" is also in the Bowyer Bell book, so it is not necessary to add the extra citation. In the interests of WP:NOR it is probably best not to link this phrase to either Marxism or Stalinism. Also, Hanley and Millar have the dates of the Ard Fheis wrong: Saturday was the 10th of January and Sunday the 11th. Again, Bowyer Bell has the correct dates. Scolaire (talk) 11:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Images of pictures

I have started a discussion on images of pictures at Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army#Images of pictures. --Scolaire (talk) 07:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Seanad in info box

My understanding is that when a sitting Senator is elected to the Dáil they vacate their Seanad seat and it's eventually filled either by the Taoiseach making a new nomination or the university holding a by-election or for the panel members the Oireachtas members only voting in a by-election. Doherty's Senate seat has been vacant since he was elected to the Dáil but Seanad by-elections appear to take a age to happen - see Members of the 23rd Seanad#Changes (and also the vacancies seem to be filled one by one - look at the Agricultural Panel vacancies in 2009). Whereas Taoiseach vacancies in the lame duck period between a Dáil & Seanad seem to get filled instantly, other seats seemingly stay vacant for the last stage of that Seanad's life. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Seanad seats are the same as Dáil seats: in principle they are filled promptly in the lifetime of the Oireachtas, but it can be dragged out if the government so decides. Traditionally, once the Dáil is dissolved, Seanad seats are not filled before the Seanad election, but Brian Cowen broke with that tradition while he was still Taoiseach. Personally, I hope the Seanad will be abolished in the lifetime of this government, but that is not a matter for the infobox. Scolaire (talk) 09:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking through the Seanad lists it seems Cowen had precedent on his side and often there have been new nominees at the end - see Members of the 20th Seanad for this happening when the government changed. But that's not a matter for this article yet. The key point here is that Sinn Féin currently have no Seanad seat. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Sinn Fein have no Seanad seat at present. From Pearse Doherty's Oireachtas members database page [1] "Senator Doherty vacated his seat in the 23rd Seanad on his election to the 30th Dáil at the by-election held on 25 November 2010 consequent on the election of Deputy Pat 'the Cope' Gallagher to the European Parliament." Snappy (talk) 19:33, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

1905 or 1970?

I notice that the article is in both Category:Political parties established in 1905 and Category:Political parties established in 1970. This tends to mislead the reader, as both cannot be accurate. Which is it? Ivor Stoughton (talk) 22:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

You might want to look in the archives. This is a controversial issue relating to whether or not there is continuity of identity following the official/provisional split. Current version is the agreed compromise --Snowded ^TALK 03:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

An agreed compromise that offers readers two pieces of information, presented as fact, that cannot possibly both be accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivor Stoughton (talk • contribs) 16:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That's just the way it is. Conflicting sources for 1905 & 1970, brought about the compromise. GoodDay (talk) 20:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I can't see how having two categories "tends to mislead the reader". It may confuse the reader, if the reader doesn't want to read the article and find out what actually happened. But to mislead the reader it would have to convince him or her that the organisation was established simultaneously in two different years, and you can't do that with a category alone, you need to work a bit harder than that. Categories are not "pieces of information, presented as fact", they are systems for categorising things. Now, the opening paragraph says it all for anyone who cares to read it: "Originating in the Sinn Féin organisation founded in 1905 by Arthur Griffith, it took its current form in 1970 after a split within the party." Sinn Féin was established in 1905; Sinn Féin split in 1970 with one of the resulting two parties being the Sinn Féin of today. Hence, two dates for its establishment - confusing, maybe; a compromise, maybe; but perfectly reasonable. Scolaire (talk) 22:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, confusing and compromised. I'd say remove both categories. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 22:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense, its a good compromise and is easily understood on the most cursory of readings. --Snowded ^TALK 23:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The obvious question: why does the 1970 split count as an establishment of the party, and not the previous splits? Ivor Stoughton (talk) 23:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussed to death last time - suggest you look in the archives --Snowded ^TALK 04:28, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

BTW when Snowded says "the archives" he means Archives 3 to 8, inclusive. Each archive is over 100kb in length. When he says "discussed to death", that is not hyperbole! Scolaire (talk) 09:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Founding date in infobox

I just restored the agreed version of the infobox to state current party formed 1970 and original 1905, only to be reverted by Mo Ainm with the question "where was this agreed?". The answer to his question is as above - see Archives 3 to 8. This was the agreed version until it was changed by Domer48 on 14th June and it needs to be restored now. Mooretwin (talk) 22:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Restored. Only Mo and Domer objected at that time, though numerous editors were in favour of a two date solution. I only just noticed that that had disappeared from the infobox. Sticking a cite needed on something, then removing it the following day is very bad form, especially when you've participated in discussions where such cites were provided. Valenciano (talk) 22:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

How many elections have "Provisional" Sinn Féin been involved in? Is there such a Party called "Provisional" Sinn Féin, if so provide sources?--Domer48_'fenian' 23:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

There are three books which will have to be dismissed before the logic of what is being suggest can be applyed. They are:

• Sinn Féin - 1905-2005 In The Shadow Of Gunmen, Rafter, Kevin, Gill & Macmillan, Dublin 2005, ISBN 0-7171-3992-1
• Sinn Féin: A Hundred Turbulent Years, Brian Feeney, O'Brien Press, Dublin 2002, ISBN 0 86278 695 9
• Sinn Féin: A Century of Struggle, Parnell Publications, Mícheál MacDonncha, 2005, ISBN 0 9542946 2 9

In addition we also have:

• A New Dictionary of Irish History From 1800, D.J. Hickey & J.E. Doherty, Gill & Macmillan, Dublin 2003, ISBN 0 7171 2520 3
• Ireland: A History, Robert Kee, Abacus, London (Revised Edition 2005), ISBN 0 349 11676 8
• The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000, Diarmaid Ferriter, Profile Books, London 2005, ISBN 978 1 861974 43 3
• Eyewitness to Irish History, Peter Berresford Ellis, John Wiley & Sons, Inc, Canada 2004, ISBN 0 471 26633 7

Unless editors would like to put forward books which dispute the authors listed above. The history of Sinn Féin begins in 1905 with Griffith and continues to today with Adams. That is what the sources say, has any authors disputed this?--Domer48_'fenian' 23:16, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Why are you pretending to be unaware of the numerous sources provided during the previous discussion about this? And why are you citing Rafter and Feeney again, when you know that both actually say the party was formed in 1970?! Read the archives for the many, many sources that were provided. Or do you really want me to post them all again? Mooretwin (talk) 23:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Provide these numerous sources, and support your comments on Rafter and Feeney. As to your bad faith assumptions on me, I suggest you stop.--Domer48_'fenian' 07:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Here we go....

• Richard English (2004), Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA, Oxford University Press, p.107
  • Traditionalists like Mac Stiofain saw the way things were going: taking about a third of the delegates with him, the Provisionals’ Chief of Staff departed, reassembled in a pre-booked hall for another meeting, formed what became Provisional Sinn Féin (PSF) and announced publicly that a Provisional Army Council had been set up to reorganize the IRA.
• Jonathan Bardon (2005), A History of Ulster. Blackstaff Press Ltd, p. 675
  • [Sean Mac Stiofain] led the coup that split the movement in December 1969. The breakaway group, as an interim arrangement, elected a provisional executive just before Christmas, with Mac Stiofain as chief of staff and Ruari O Bradaigh as president of Provisional Sinn Féin, its political counterpart. Ten months later they stated that this temporary period was over, but the names Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA remained with them ever since.
• Brendan O'Brien (2007), O'Brien Pocket History of the IRA: From 1916 Onwards, O'Brien Press Ltd, p.75
  • In a pre-planned move they immediately went to a Dublin city venue to form a caretaker executive of a new (Provisional) Sinn Féin.
• Ed Moloney (2007), A Secret History of the IRA, Penguin Books, p.72
  • Later that evening they met to set up an Executive for their own version of Sinn Féin and elected Ruari O Bradaigh as the first Provisional Sinn Féin president.
• S. J. Connolly (ed.) (2007), The Oxford Companion to Irish History, Oxford University Press, p. 543
  • … the movement split in January 1970 into official and provisional Sinn Féin, mirroring the split within the IRA the previous month.
• Thomas Hennessey (2005), Northern Ireland: The Origins of the Troubles, Gill & Macmillan, p.358
  • And from this point there were two IRAs … matched by two parallel Sinn Féins – Official Sinn Féin and Provisional Sinn Féin.
• Brian Feeney (2007), O'Brien Pocket History of the Troubles, O'Brien Press Ltd, p.138
  • Chronology: 1970. January. Provisional Sinn Féin founded.
• W.D. Flackes and Sydney Elliott (1994), Northern Ireland: A Political Directory 1968-1993, Gill & Macmillan Ltd, p. 284
  • Entry for PROVISIONAL SINN FÉIN: The political counterpart of PIRA which dates from January 1970, when the split occurred in the Republican movement.
• CAIN Abstracts on Organisations
  • Entry for Sinn Féin (SF) [synonyms: Provisional Sinn Féin]: The party was formed out the split in the IRA in January 1970 when the original SF split into the Official SF and the Provisional SF.
• BBC Fact Files.
  • The modern party was founded in 1970 when Provisional Sinn Fein split from Official Sinn Fein, although it derives its name from an organisation founded by Irish nationalist Arthur Griffith in 1905.
• Agnes Maillot (2007), New Sinn Féin: Irish republicanism in the twenty-first century, Taylor & Francis, p.4
  • Under the leadership of Tomas Mac Giolla and Cathal Goulding in the late 1950s and throughout the 1960s, there was a shift towards the left. ... Marxist distinctions based on class replaced a more traditional vision based on geography and history. To aim to unite the working class was seen as a dangerous path by those who would eventually break away and regroup under the names Provisional IRA and Provisional Sinn Féin, since it was seen to undermine the fundamental dimension of the conflict: that of the colonial legacy which was maintained through partition and its institutions.
• Marianne Heiberg, Brendan O'Leary, and John Tirman (2007), Terror, Insurgency, and the State: Ending Protracted Conflicts, University of Pennsylvania Press, p.199
  • The Provisional IRA was created in December 1969 in full knowledge of these facts, its twin sister, Provisional Sinn Féin, shortly afterward.
• Jonathan Tonge (2006), Northern Ireland, Polity, pp.132-133
  • Provisional Sinn Féin (PSF) formed in 1970 pledged allegiance to the First Dail, having split from what became known as Official IRA and Official Sinn Féin, because it had voted to enter a 'partitionist parliament'.
• Sheldon Stryker, Timothy J. Owens and Robert W. White (2000), Self, Identity, and Social Movements, University of Minnesota Press, p.330
  • In January 1970, the political wing of the Republican movement, Sinn Féin, also split. Those who rejected constitutional politics walked out of the Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis and formed Provisional Sinn Féin. Those who supported the Official IRA were then referred to as Official Sinn Féin.
• John Plowright (2006), The Routledge Dictionary of Modern British History, Routledge, p.276
  • The modern party dates from 1970, when Provisional Sinn Féin split from Official Sinn Féin.
• Kevin Rafter (2005), Sinn Féin 1905-2005: In the Shadow of Gunmen, Gill & Macmillan, p.96
  • MacStiofain and his supporters had prevented the constitutional change but they were in a minority. They quickly departed to form a new organisation that would shortly come to represent the traditional republican doctrines and a majority within the militant republican constituency on the island. The new movement pledged its 'allegiance to the 32-County Irish Republic proclaimed at Easter 1916 ... etc.
  • After the split in the republican movement in 1969-70, Adams sided with the newly established Provisional movement. (p.9)
  • ... nobody, and no party, has a monopoly on the legacy of 1905. (p.18) Valenciano (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

LOL. You left out Domer's own selected source of Feeney (Sinn Féin: A Hundred Turbulent Years, Brian Feeney, O'Brien Press, Dublin 2002, ISBN 0 86278 695 9!) ...

• • In early 1970 neither the Provisional IRA nor its political mouthpiece Provisional Sinn Fein, had much of an existence outside west Belfast. Its new Dublin-based leaders had almost no followers. There were of course, pockets of support around Ireland where various individuals in the republican movement, emotionally spurred by the events of August 1969, gave their backing to the breakaway group, which as yet had no organisation on the ground (p.251); Others both inside and outside the movement viewed the Provisionals as a dangerous backward looking offshoot from a republican movement that had spent the best part of ten years trying to jettison irredentist violence and rhetoric. Mooretwin (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Surely everybody can agree that the last thing this article needs is another talk page source-war going on for another 18 months and another 600kb! And all over four digits in the infobox! There was agreement reached here that there was a consensus for this version, with a compromise intro and a compromise infobox. A compromise is necessary because the sources indicating some sort of continuity and the sources indicating de novo formation in 1970 have equal claim to validity. There is no evidence that consensus has changed. We need to go back to the compromise wording, and without refs, which only muddy the waters. Scolaire (talk) 08:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Amen to that! Valenciano (talk) 08:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Tell it to Domer! He must have a bad memory, because surely he wouldn't be so disingenuous as to pretend he couldn't remember the long discussions, to which he was party. Mooretwin (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

That is a personal attack, pure and simple! It can have no possible purpose except to provoke, and thus re-ignite the word war Valenciano and I are trying to prevent. Please remain civil, and comment on edits not editors. Scolaire (talk) 11:04, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Funny that the actual provocation and the re-ignition of the war - i.e. Domer's attempts to overturn consensus - didn't prompt any words of scorn from yourself, yet the response to it did. At least try to be even-handed in your comments, please. Mooretwin (talk) 11:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I think Mo ainm's comments were directed at you. I didn't "remind him of civil" or restore any uncivil comments here. Mooretwin (talk) 12:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Two Lead Paragraphs are Confusing to Novice on this topic

The first paragraph mentions Sinn Fein in the parliament of Ireland. The second paragraph is about Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland. So Sinn Fein is a party which operates in two countries? Do I understand correctly? If this is the case, then this situation must be quite unique in the world. And if this is the case, I think a lead sentence should state the dual political activity more clearly. But maybe I completely misunderstood the intent? Thanks for clarifying this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.245.231 (talk) 05:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You are right, there are elected Sinn Féin representatives in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They would not say that they "operate in two countries": their philosophy is that Ireland is one country. It also reflects the historical fact that when the original Sinn Féin was founded in 1905 the island had not yet been divided. So you could say it's not that Sinn Féin made a decision to operate in two jurisdictions, they just never decided to stop doing so after partition. Iota (talk) 23:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I think another example might be the Ba'ath Party who used to operate in both Syria and Iraq. They wanted the whole Arab world to become one country. As a nationalist and socialist party it has some superficial similarities to Sinn Féin. But I think it eventually split into two separate Syrian and Iraqi parties that didn't like each other very much. Iota (talk) 23:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)