Talk:Siwa Oasis

Find sources: "Siwa+Oasis" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images

Comments

The external link to the CNN site is no longer valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.170.15.246 (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Size

How large is the oasis? Is this just one lake with vegetation around it or several lakes? 69.129.145.7 (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Why is Siwa an oasis?

The article lacks completely an explanation why Siwa is an oasis and its geological background. Why is there a lake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.229.67.53 (talk) 09:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Formerly Culture and Society

My understanding is that Siwa Oasis had, until relatively recently, a culture somewhat different from that of the Nile Valley, and that some of their practices gave rise to conflicts with the nominal values of the latter area. Perhaps more on the art styles, history, society and culture, and relation to what might loosely be termed Libyan cultural areas, of Siwa Oasis would be within the scope of the article.FurnaldHall (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Sacrilege"

Why was bathing in the pool regarded as "Sacrilege"? This makes no sense since the inhabitants are Muslims, not Egyptian reconstructionist pagans... the German article offers the opinion that it is, but not that this was how the people of the Oasis saw things. This should be removed. Paul S (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Jews

Although it might be worthy of inclusion, why is this section on the Anti-Jewish attitude in a Muslim area with no Jewish inhabitants (i.e. it shouldn't be surprising) longer than the rest of the article? Even the "Non-Entry of Non-Muslims" section of the Mecca article is shorter. I can think of no reason other than to be inflammatory. 214.13.35.169 (talk) 16:43, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I've taken out some of the quotes to shorten this section. However, simply citing the article is insufficient as doing so fails to convey the extremely inflammatory and racist nature of the specific sentiments of the people interviewed, e.g. "we can smell if someone is a Jew." Surely statements of this nature are notable.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 00:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC))

The "we can smell" guy is simply an idiot, I believe. Do you think he represents the opinion of the citizens of Siwa well? The other two seem more intelligent. If I lived at Siwa, I would probably resent being represented here by an "alternative therapist". – Alensha ^talk 00:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The "we can smell" guy is only one of the people interviewed. Others include a Egyptian MP from the area and a local tribe leader. There are also other people interviewed that I agreed not to include to keep this section to a reasonable size. Comments like this that are made on an internationally broadcast television show are certainly notable. Again, if you have a source that provides a counterpoint (or indicates that the source already cited is incorrect), please present it.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 01:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC))

I have abridged this section further and given it a more encyclopedic and more general title. More importantly, I have added the context of the quotes - they were elicited specifically in response to allegations of Israeli ties with Siwa. Anyone who wants to view the quotes can simply follow the references (and, incidentally, I've added a link to the full transcript of the program in Arabic - a much better source than MEMRI for those who can use it.) I don't see any need for more than a summary, any more than (say) the rather long Awlad Ali quotes about the "friendship" system that I have summarised in a sentence. And such a summary should of course reflect statements whose gist was repeated by several sources, not outlandish ones (like the ridiculous "we can smell if someone is a Jew") restricted to a single interviewee. I emphasise that even as I've left it, the section has a highly disproportionate focus on Jews - relations with Nile Valley Egyptians, Bedouins, Western tourists, and even Chinese tourists all play a much more important role in Siwi society. With the quotes included, the disproportion would reach absurd levels. - Lameen Souag (talk) 11:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I have restored most of what you removed. Your summary leaves all of the other comments made by people interviewed during the program and gives the impression that the additudes held by residents of Siwa toward Jews are far less extreme than those provided in the MEMRI video. I have already agreed to remove most of the quotes from other interviewees (which were far more disturbing and racist than those remaining) but I feel that removing all of them (and replacing them with your summary) provides an incomplete picture of this situation - it is clear that the residents of Siwa hold a negative and hostile additude towards Jews. There is no reason why this this article cannot provide more context regarding these views.

I realize this is a sensitive topic, so I welcome any criticism or comments.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC))

I have several objections to the approach you have adopted that I believe most readers will share.

First: "Jews not welcome in Siwa" is manifestly not an encyclopedic heading. It might be useful in WikiTravel, I suppose, but Wikipedia is not here to offer travel advice.

Second: your current phrasing gives the erroneous impression that the other residents quoted were not responding to the allegation. The only one who was not explicitly responding to the allegation was the alternative therapist, and he too was no doubt aware of the context (the allegation of Israeli links made quite a stir in Siwa - a lot of Siwis complained to me about it at the time.)

Third, and most importantly: Filling an article with long quotations almost always makes it look unprofessional. Doing so on an issue totally peripheral to the topic of the article (Siwa has no Jewish population, and there is no evidence that it has ever had one) simply leaves ordinary readers with no stake in Middle Eastern edit wars wondering what on earth is going on. If you feel that my summary of the quotes gave an incomplete picture, perhaps you could suggest an alternative wording? I believe the following is an exhaustive list of themes appearing in more than one person's quotes:

• there are no Jews in Siwa (Shaykh Omar, Musa Umran)
• Siwis do not have or want relations with the Jews (Shaykh Omar, Musa Umran)
• Jews do not and should not attend the Siyaha (mistranslated as "tourism") festival (Muhammad Salih, anonymous)
• this is because Siwa sides with the Arabs in the Arab-Israeli conflict (Shaykh Omar, Bilal Ahmad)

You could stretch a point and unify Bilal Ahmad's "despise Israelis" and Anonymous' "hate Jews" into "hate Israelis / Jews" (most Siwis aren't really conscious of the difference between the two) but that's already getting dubious. In any case, a sentence or two should be more than enough to summarise the quotes fairly, concisely, and neutrally. - Lameen Souag (talk) 19:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

One more point: you appear particularly concerned to keep the "smelling Jews" quote. Obviously I don't think any quotes from the show longer than a word or two belong here, but even as regards the summary: this article is about Siwa. Beliefs and attitudes widely held by Siwis are relevant here; ones held only by a single Siwi are not (and would not be notable in any case, unless he was famous.) The show confirms that a number of Siwis hold attitudes along the lines of my summary above. It does not show that anyone except this alternative therapist imagines that they can "smell Jews". If you can offer evidence that this idea is held by anyone else in Siwa, perhaps it should be kept (there is a quite extensive literature on the anthropology of Siwa for you to search through.) However, the only reason you have offered for keeping it is its "extremely inflammatory and racist nature". If that were sufficient to make an isolated statement by an otherwise non-notable person notable, then every article on a major town would be full of quotes like these. - Lameen Souag (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

My response: The gentleman who has remarkable confidence in his Olfactory sense demonstrates clearly that the attiudes held by the people of Siwa are against "Jews" and not simply against Israelis, although your new summary makes this point clearer than before. However, your summary leaves out the fact that the interviewees have made it clear that they not only hate Jews and Israelis and that no Jews live in Siwa, but that Jews are also not welcome in Siwa.. This is an important point because Jews are the only religious/ethnic group that are unwelcome in Siwa - that is why this material has its own section. I'll agree to remove some of the quotes but I will adjust the summary to reflect the points I have cited.

The other interviewees specifically state that they refuse to provide services to Jews and become hostile and apprehensive whenever they think they have discovered that someone in their immediate vicinity is of the Jewish faith or ethnicity. However, I've agreed not to include this.

With regard to your comment about the language used, Wikipedia does not censor language when quoting - even controversial language (if properly sourced). Also, if there are any other tourist destinations in the world that ban specific ethnic/religious groups, I doubt that their Wikipedia entries would not relect this.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 02:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC))

I've travelled extensively throughout the Middle East and Egypt. I spent 2 weeks at Siwa Oasis, specifically, in 2006. I'm also Jewish. I think it is absurd for this section to even exist on the page for Siwa Oasis. There is such a wealth of history that should be elaborated on for this location, not to mention the geologic facts of the oasis, before the mention of this absurdity. This entry could apply to absolutely any community in the entire Arab world. I'd like to add a (reasonable) voice to the discussion that suggests that this section be made even less conspicuous or be removed entirely. It has one point and one point alone, and that is that anti-semitism exists in the Arab world. You could go to absolutely any community in the Arab world and interview individuals in the street and get the exact same quotes as found here. If this belongs anywhere, it is on the page for Anti-Semitism, as an example of the widespread hype-driven and institutionalization of the issue in the Arabic world. This is not unique to Siwa, it is not more noticeable at Siwa, in fact, it is not noticeable at all there. In two weeks in Siwa I personally witnessed no public anti-semitism whatsoever, compared to say, Cairo, where Mein Kampf was for sale in the train station. As far as refusing service to Jews, this is absurd. Despite the words of the idiots interviewed by Al Jazeera, I'm quite certain Siwans have absolutely no idea which of the thousands of tourists they see pass through every year are Jewish. So that further precludes any relevance for this topic on this page.

Siwa has traditionally always had a suspicious attitude towards all strangers (ie people not from the oasis!) and this attitude in the recent past has been more markedly fervent towards Egyptians, Europeans, Arabs and Romans than towards any Jews or Israelis, with whom the Siwans have NO history. For centuries the Siwans resisted and fought the Arabs themselves, so in that sense, throughout most of their history the Siwans have been extremely anti-semitic, the semites being the ARABS! The Siwans resisted Egyptian nationalism as recently as this century and didn't even have a direct transportation link to the modern world until the 40's. These topics are all of considerably more interest and relevancy to the oasis than whatever verbal anti-semitism could be brought forth by an Al Jazeera microphone.

The overwhelming majority of people coming to this page are going to be looking for historical, scientific, and cultural information about a fascinating place, lets give them more of that, and less of these ridiculous politics.Trefalcon (talk) 15:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad you had a fun time when visiting Siwa. Unfortunately, your own experiences and opinions are original research. If you have a source that contradicts the Al-Jazzera program (i.e. that Jews/Israelis are not hated or banned from Siwa) please indicate it. The statements made during the program (that Jews are not welcome in Siwa) are hardly "ridiculous politics." It may not reflect kindly on the residents of Siwa, but that only does not mean that the material is bias or improper. Again, if you are so certain that the Al-Jazzera program is misrepresenting Siwa, feel free to cite a source that indicates this - so far, all you have provided is your own views on Siwa's residents and your own opinions (e.g. "I'm quite certain Siwans have absolutely no idea which of the thousands of tourists they see pass through every year are Jewish."). Finally, you claim that these attitudes are common throughout the Arab world - even if this is true, it doesn't change the fact that Siwa residents hold certain beliefs and opinions about Jews that have been broadcast on International Television.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 23:18, 7 February 2011 (UTC))

In any given city in Egypt I can easily give you five people who are willing to say the same things about Israelis /Jews. They will probably represent what most people feel, but they are not official representatives of the community they are speaking for. Unless WP can source it, it is wrong to give the impression that these Siwis are on an official mission. Who sent them, the mayor, the local council or the council of the ruling tribal shieks? Do tell. Also understand that after such allegation, these people feel obliged to defend themselves after having been insulted on TV (an insult it is, to them, unfortunately) and to save face, they do what they have to do. Understand Egypt and Siwa; this what is said has nothing to do with how they will treat visiting Israelis. As anyone who has spent a considerable time in Siwa know, jewish money is as welcome as any other money and indeed, even jewish visitors are returning vistors. The community is certainly not hostile as this text is suggesting; this reality should be reflected. I understand the difficulty in finding sources but undue weight is still undue weight and cannot be defended with "say and source the opposite when you can". And please, do use the original source, whatever is translated by Memri is questionable, it is not an independent organisation, it has a mission; I myself enjoy their work but it's not objective.Ancientkingdom (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

If you have any evidence that the MEMRI translation is inaccurate, please provide it. (Your claim that "whatever is translated by MEMRI is questionable" is not only extremely dubious - out of several thousand translations, only a handful contain mistakes.) MEMRI includes not only a transcript but the original video as it was broadcast on Al-Jazeera.

More to the point, you make several claims (among them):

• "this what is said has nothing to do with how they will treat visiting Israelis"
• "jewish money is as welcome as any other money"
• "jewish visitors are returning vistors"
• "The community is certainly not hostile as this text is suggesting"

However, you do not provide a source for any of them (except through your own claims and statements). If you have a source that indicates that the people Siwa don't really mean what they said in the Al-Jazeera, please cite it, but unfortunately, we can't take your word for that.

To put this in perspective, if the mayor and religious leaders of a resort town in the United States made similar statements about Jews (or Muslims, Hindus or Buddists for that matter) on an internationally televised news program, it would certainly be considered notable in Wikipedia.

As for your statement that "after such allegation, these people feel obliged to defend themselves after having been insulted on TV (an insult it is, to them, unfortunately) and to save face," I think that statement speaks for itself: You are effectively acknowledging that Jews are (to put it extremely mildly) not held in high regard in Siwa or Egypt and that suggesting otherwise is insulting to them (if that's not anti-Jewish, I'm not sure what is). If you watch the video, the other interviewees make far more derogatory statements (e.g. the "we can smell" guy) but I have agreed to not to include them in this article.

Again, if you want to cite a source that indicates otherwise (i.e. that supports any of your claims) please do so.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2011 (UTC))

File:Floodmap Oasis Depressions.JPG Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Floodmap Oasis Depressions.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)