Talk:Six-Day War

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Former good article nominee Six-Day War was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

I edited part of the section about the events leading to war[edit]

The article was missing an important confrontation that occurred on April 7, 1967 between Israel and Syria, so I added it. -- Wiki Khalil (talk) October 13 2012

Sources for the Egyptians side:[edit]

Senior Egyptian officials:[edit]

"the testimony of Egyptian Chief of Staff General Mahmoud Fawzi to the effect that an Egyptian air attack was scheduled for 27 May, and that the relevant orders had already been signed by Abdel Hakim Amer when Nasser ordered its cancellation on 26 May" (Gluska 2007 , p. 168)

"According to then Egyptian Vice-President Hussein el-Shafei, as soon as Nasser knew what Amer planned, he cancelled the operation" ( Bowen 2003, p. 57 (author interview, Cairo, 15 December 2002). I have not verified)

the testimony of Bassiouny, who recalls that when the Washington Embassy reported that Secretary of State Dean Rusk had information that Egypt was going to start the war, Amer wrote on the cable, “Shams, it seems there is a leak.” (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p68 )

Egyptian military steps[edit]

on May 26, two Egyptian Air Force MiG-21s overflew the reactor (at 52,000 feet) on a photographic reconnaissance mission, and interceptors and missiles failed to bring them down. The Israelis linked the mission to a possible preemptive strike on the plant (Morris, victims, p. 308)

In the Sinai, there was deep confusion; as late as 5 June officers were still not sure whether their goal was offensive or defensive. Nasser is said by some officers to have added to the chaos by his constant interference in military plans (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p66 )

On approximately 20 May, Saad alDin Shazly, commander of a Special Forces unit in the Sinai, was given an offensive mission plan involving an advance through Israel.(Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p67 )

As late as 25 May, therefore, everything was set for an attack at daybreak on 27 May.(Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p67 )

It was only one hour before the planned strike on 27 May that Said’s army liaison officer told him the attack had been aborted after a U.S. request to the Soviets. Shazly was not informed of the shift to a defensive posture until about 1 june. Although Nasser reiterated that Egypt would not strike first, tanks and planes in the Sinai were fully fuelled and not concealed, as if they were going to attack (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p68 )

Nasser intentions[edit]

On 13 May 1967 Nasser received a Soviet intelligence report which claimed that Israel was massing troops on Syria's border. Nasser responded by taking three successive steps which made war virtually inevitable (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p 7 )

He was subsequently to imply- as during his speech of May 26 to Arab trade union leaders-that the whole sequence of moves, culminating in the closure of the straits, had been planned to trigger war with Israel, with the ultimate aim of “liberating Palestine." (Morris, victims, p. 306)

In 1966 Nasser himself had declared that if Israel developed an atomic bomb, Egypt’s response would be a “preemptive war’ directed in the first instance against the nuclear production facilities.27 On May 21, Eshkol had told the cabinet Defense Committee that Egypt wanted to close the straits and “to bomb the reactor in Dimona. (Morris, victims, p. 307)

He was subsequently to imply- as during his speech of May 26 to Arab trade union leaders-that the whole sequence of moves, culminating in the closure of the straits, had been planned to trigger war with Israel, with the ultimate aim of “liberating Palestine." (Morris, victims, p. 308)

Abdel Magid Farid, however, suggests that Nasser did actually consider the first strike option until early on 27 May, when he was hauled out of bed at 3 by the ambassador from the Soviet Union (his only source of arms and spare parts) and warned not to precipitate a confrontation (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p68 )


Sources for the Israeli side:[edit]

Israeli military considerations[edit]

In the first days of June ... as did the sense that the Arab states might launch an attack within days There was particular fear of a limited Jordanian or Jordanian-Egyptian offensive against Eilat. (Morris, victims, p. 310)

Israeli diplomatic and political steps[edit]

"In private, Eshkol had sent Nasser secret messages urging deescalation. In public, he continued to assert Israel’s peaceful intentions, call for international mediation, and avoid criticism of Egypt. This reinforced the existing image of Egyptian military superiority — if Israel wanted to avoid war, it was presumably because Israel thought it would lose" (Shlaim, Louis, 2012,The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences, p66 )

Nasser seems to have been encouraged by the fact that Israeli rhetoric condemning the Tiran blockade and subsequent developments was relatively mild. Even the fact that the United States counselled restraint was interpreted as an attempt to protect Israel from Arab wrath — and therefore as further evidence of her need for protection. (Shlaim, Louis, 2012, p68 )

Although Eshkol denounced the Egyptians, his response to this development was a model of moderation (Mutawi p. 93)

the leaders of the confrontational states were caught by complete surprise when Israel took their threats at face value (Shlaim; Louis2012, p. 63 )

Nasser appeared to challenge Israel to a duel (Shlaim; Louis2012, p. 7 )


The Lead, Background are biased (archived sections)[edit]

Nasser steps made war inevitable

bias

Background section

The Lead is biased

Nasser steps made war inevitable, 2nd[edit]

A :Yours: " Despite your assertions, there is no scholarly consensus whether one side was at fault more than the other in increasing those tensions.". Please see the quotes in the next sections. This is the opinions of a lot of wp:rs as seen in the next section. Moreover, Nasser himself realized it before he decided to close the Tiran straits. Ykantor (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Ykantor, by copying these quotes to this talkpage you're not really advancing your point or the cause of improving the article. You choose to quote those sources. Other editors could choose to quote other ones. For example, ones that lay the blame on Israel's doorstep. As you know, most scholarly accounts of the leadup to the war attribute the deterioration of the situation to a multilateral escalation. Historians now dispute Israel's claims of self-defence, based on newly accessed material. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:12, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Most of the quotes are from recent works, therefore clearly not all the historians "now" dispute Israel's claim of self-defence. Why not represent both POVs ? WarKosign 18:19, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- A significant number of respected historians (might be even a majority) support the claim that it was inevitable that Nasser provocative acts would cause a war. Even Nasser himself (and his seniors) realized it, as quoted. Hence it should be inserted in the article.
- The claim that "most scholarly accounts of the leadup to the war attribute the deterioration of the situation to a multilateral escalation" was already proven wrong few times, and anyway concerning the crisis 3 weeks period (up to the war), initially even the Israelis considered Nasser mobilization of his army as a show off only. However, since later Nasser closed the straits for an Israeli bound shipping although he knew that it leads to a war, than this claim sound hollow.
- I consider adding to the article the "inevitable" issue, and the Egyptian plan to atalk Israel at the 27 May, which was canceled at the last minute. Ykantor (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Ykantor, the "claim" has not been proven wrong, and it's not our place to try to prove sources right or wrong to begin with. The statement is reliably sourced to an academic source that is more reliable than opinions of individual editors. See Quigley: "The Six-Day War and Israeli Self-Defense" on pages 134-5: the view that Israel acted in self defense is now increasingly contested by historians based on newly declassified evidence. Israeli generals said that if Nasser hadn't closed the straits, Israel would have developed another pretext to start the war. The United States told Israel to not start a war, despite the closure. So the war was indeed inevitable, regardless of what Nasser did, since Israeli generals had decided to start it. As is plain, the situation is more complex than your carefully selected sources would seem to imply. Overall, as has been pointed out to you more times than is reasonable, there is a separate article for the background for the war. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I am for adding those 2 issues to the article. Tzahy (talk) 16:21, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Just to repeat for the umpteenth time this article is not about the causes of the war, it's about the war itself. The reason why there is a separate Origins of the Six-Day War is that it is too complex and too contraversial to include it here on a part basis only. It warrants a whole article. Hence, it is best to simply say here, in terms, that the war arose out of heightened tensions - see other article for details. This article needs to focus on what happened between 5 and 10 June and aftermath - and it doesn't do that terribly well. It is a great shame that editors aren't more concerned with that. DeCausa (talk) 16:37, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

@ DeCausa:

  • If you continue to modify my talkpage editing for the third time, I'll have to complain.
  • I will appreciate it if you refer to point A ,at the beginning of this section.
  • Just to repeat for the umpteenth time this article is about a war, and like other featured articles (mentioned previously) should relate to the war causes too. If there is a controversy, than according to the rules both sides should be mentioned, provided having a proper support (which you did not bother to produce yet)
  • If you are editing in a Good Faith, you should stand up to your word : "most scholarly accounts of the leadup to the war attribute the deterioration of the situation to a multilateral escalation" and prove it, rather than trying to hide the proof that your claim is wrong. How come that these quotes of significant amount of wp:rs (and growing), is ignored ? Why should not we act according to the rules? Ykantor (talk)
Ykantor, if you continue with this disruption it will end at ANI. Your quote farm is available to you in the collapsed section. There is no point in taking up extensive space on this page; no one else is engaging with you on it, it's just a personal collection for you, that's why it is collapsed. The better thing to do would be to create your own user page for it and link to it whenever you want to refer to it when you post here. DeCausa (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I repeat my previous warning ([1]) :you offend wp:TPO :" you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission. Ykantor (talk) 08:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
You are, once again, trying to recast the article against WP:NPOV by pushing a thesis of unilateral responsibility for the outbreak of hostilities. Israel attacked first, but Nasser was to blame. As de Causa noted, there was a multilateral escalation. (The choice along the line to 'go to war' was Israel's, but it had a range of arguments justifying this choice as dictated by necessity, just as other perspectives see it as dictated by long-term strategic interests following a pattern of aggressive expansion and non-negotiation. The details of all of this are not for this page, but for the linked main pages dealing with these complexities. You simply cannot get away with the bias declared in the section heading above:'Nasser steps made war inevitable'. Nothing is 'inevitable' in world politics except cunning and stupidity.Nishidani (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Your quote-farm is defective from the first instance, by the way:

-The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences, Avi Shlaim, ‎William Roger Louis - 2012 , page 7, 106 = Speaks of Nasser's three steps as making the war 'virtually inevitable'.

the operative word being 'virtually' (almost), but it is preceded by an analysis that argues Syria was trying to drag Nasser into a war he was cautious of avoiding, in order to destabilize his leadership of pan-Arab politics. 'Although he appeared to be challenging Israel to a duel, most observers agree that he neither planned nor wished for one,' his movement of troops into the Sinai being not a prelude to an attack but a move designed to deter an Israeli attack on Syria. What that book argues, persuasively, is that Arab politics were totally fragmented except with regard to a consensus re Israel and the need for war. Rhetoric was at a fever-pitch as competing regimes vied to seize the issue for internal and external political ends, while real coordination was in total disarray. Objectively there was no 'intrinsic' 'existential threat' - the CIA weeks before said the war would be wrapped up in 6, at the most 10 days, with an outstanding Israeli victory. Israel exercised an option to take the empty threats at 'face value' and blitz to smithereens the neighbouring armies. The book also says (p.9) that 'Israel's decision to go to war could be reached only after it had secured the tacit support of its (U.S.) superpower ally'. Had the U.S. not given its 'yellow light' the war was not 'inevitable'. There are numerous other factors, and snippets that simply and cherrypick as yours get us nowhere.Nishidani (talk) 12:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
  • @Nishidani: "there was a multilateral escalation". This is true, together with "Nasser steps mage the war inevitable.", as proven by a significant number(perhaps a majority) of wp:rs.
  • "Nothing is 'inevitable' in world politics"

    Technically, this is true, of course. Israel could have continue with big threatening armies positioned close to the borders around Israel ( and Growing), with economy hardly functioning since the working people (and trucks, buses etc.) were mobilized, with no spares for the airforce fighters (France declared embargo) etc. So, why did those significant amount of wp:rs used the term "Inevitable"? I guess that they used it because any other country would have done the same, under these circumstances.

    According to wiki rules, the view of a significant number (perhaps a majority) of the wp:rs should be displayed in the article (which mean 'inevitable' as well), together with the opposing view, provided it is supported. Thus the NPOV is maintained.

    However, in order to find a compromise, I am prepared to use an alternative wording, with the meaning that any other country would have done the same, under these circumstances.

  • Was Nasser interested in a war?

    At the beginning of these 3 weeks just before the war, Nasser was not interested in a war, even according to the Israeli army assessment of the time. However, at the end of the second week ( at 27 May) Egypt planned to attack Israel. The plan was canceled at the last minute, due to the 2 superpowers warnings. Hence, at least during those days he wanted a war. Ykantor (talk) 17:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Levi Eshkol was not interested in exploiting the tensions to go to war: Yitzhak Rabin and several others were very eager, even Abba Eban. Like Nasser, Moshe Dayan made Rabin hysterical and brought him to a nervous collapse because he opposed his plans to go to war. Ben-Gurion was adamant in opposing it. So, why are you obsessing with one Arab leader as being a 'ticking bomb'? To finger a monster, or some overwhelming foreign culprit for Israel's predictable victory?Nishidani (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- The simple answer is: because it is correct. That is what really happened.
- Generally Israel has its own share of wrong doing, but not in this war that erupted despite Israeli efforts to mitigate the tension and to avoid the war. The Israeli public was afraid, and eventually on the verge of panic. The generals wanted to initiate a war , but the reservist soldiers (most of the army) were worried. Eshkol was very cautious, and realized that starting a war with a U.S. red light , is very risky, and has no benefit. The Israeli government voted for the war only after the U.S. red light turned to yellow. (Indeed, As the war started, the U.S banned weapons and spares supply to to Israel and the neighbouring countries).
-Nasser Wiki article says: "On 21 May, Amer asked Nasser to order the Straits of Tiran blockaded, a move Nasser believed Israel would use as a casus belli. Amer reassured him that the army was prepared for confrontation, but Nasser doubted Amer's assessment of the military's readiness. Moreover, Amer anticipated an impending Israeli attack and advocated a preemptive strike. Nasser refused …. Still, Nasser concluded that if Israel attacked, Egypt's quantitative advantage in manpower and arms could stave off Israeli forces for at least two weeks, allowing for diplomacy towards a ceasefire. Towards the end of May, Nasser increasingly exchanged his positions of deterrence for deference to the inevitability of war, under increased pressure to act by both the general Arab populace and various Arab governments. On 26 May Nasser declared, "our basic objective will be to destroy Israel". On 30 May, King Hussein committed Jordan in an alliance with Egypt and Syria.". This text is much better than the this article existing text. Note that this text is based mostly on Arab historians:Kandil, Abu Rish, Mutawi.
-Since the Israeli victory was overwhelming, it might seem that it was predictable. It is suggested to read Kenneth M. Pollack "Arabs at war" [1] , for more detailed view.
  1. The Israeli surprising air attack hardly met an Egyptian resistance since nearly all Egyptian fighters were on ground. ! If some of those fighters were flying (and some ready for taking off) , they would have a good chance to shoot down the coming Israeli aircraft, with a limited maneuverability because of the heavy load of bombs. The Iraqis at H-3 Air Base, for instance, were ready for those aerial attacks and succeeded to shoot a significant amount of the attacking Israeli fighters.
  2. The Egyptian soldiers fought bravely and offered a significant resistance, unlike some french soldiers who run away when the Germans attacked them in the world war.
  3. The Syrian,Jordanian and Iraqi armies were supposed to attack Israel immediately in response to The Israeli attack on Egypt. Had they done that, Israel would have an hard time.
  4. If the war would have continued for more time, than the U.N could possible force a ceasefire. Israel could have been in a big trouble in such a situation.
- re- In order to find a compromise, I am prepared to use an alternative wording to "inevitable", with the meaning that any other country would have done the same, under these circumstances. Ykantor (talk) 13:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
This is your known POV. You are trying to edit it in on the page. You are saying Israel strove to avoid a war in full knowledge that if a war took place it was known that it would last for from 6-10 days and end in a resounding Israeli victory. The outcome of the war which Israel was, in your view, eager to avoid, was known before Israel began it by launching a strike. Egypt was told 12 hours before the strike that Israel would attack the next morning, and did not act on this CIA-Jordanian intelligence. That is not evidence of a nation on a war-footing, but of the total incompetent paranoid stupidity of inter-Arab political wrangling, which was of course the ace in Israel's hand. So, what you are doing is massing quotes saying Arabs were screaming for war, while leaving their forces in defensive positions, their air forces grounded within striking distance, and not firing a shot, whereas Israel was unwilling to go to war, while sure it would win any conflict within a week by wiping out the combined Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian forces. It's all very interesting, but, Ykantor, we are expressly forbidden from using Wikipedia to write articles expressing one partisan version of events. The only way to avoid this is quite simple: you arrange the diplomatic, political and military facts in chronological order, and ignore issues of blame. Nishidani (talk) 13:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

(outdent) "this war that erupted despite Israeli efforts to mitigate the tension and to avoid the war" If this is what you really believe, then you've read a severely non-representative sample of sources. Israel begged and cajoled the US to greenlight an attack on Egypt on several occasions, to the extent of fabricating claims (disproved at the time, before the war, by US intelligence) that Egypt was about to attack Israel. Israeli leaders discussed generating an "alibi" for starting a war, including staging an incident in the Strait of Tiran. Israeli leaders have confessed that even without the Tiran closure, Israel would have acted on another pretext in a year or so. Israeli leaders have also explicitly referred to the Six-Day war as a war of choice. There is no way that the balance of sources would indicate that Israel tried to mitigate tension and avoid a war, since Israel tried to do exactly the opposite and the sources say so. Israel in fact started the war, despite initially claiming otherwise. You're beating a dead horse. --Dailycare (talk) 21:45, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

- to Nishidani: yours- "ignore issues of blame". The blame is a by product of the causes, and the article should deal with the causes as well, following featured articles.
- yours: "Israel strove to avoid a war in full knowledge that if a war took place it was known that it would last for from 6-10 days and end in a resounding Israeli victory." This is true in retrospect but was not seen as such by Eshkol, the cautious Israeli prime minister. He was worried about the implication of a successful Egyptian eminent attack, and he was not sure that he could trust the Generals promises. Note that it is difficult to predict the outcome of a war. The C.I.A failed to predict the 1948 and 1973 Israeli Arab wars, which is rather high percentage of their Israel- Arab war predictions.
- yours: 'extent of fabricating claims (disproved at the time, before the war, by US intelligence) that Egypt was about to attack Israel." Nowadays we know that it Egypt was about to attack Israel, and the Israeli alert was not fabricated at all. Please have a look for senior Egyptian officials testimonies.
- yours: "Israel begged and cajoled the US to greenlight an attack on Egypt". Israel was afraid of a repeat of the 1956 war bitter Eisenhower experience, and tried to find out if the American will continue that policy. But this happened at the last 10 days before the war, after Nasser closed the Tiran straits for Israeli shipping, although Nasser was aware that it was a declared Israeli Casus belli. BTW Johnson indeed banned military supply for Israel as the war started.
- yours:"Arabs were screaming for war, while leaving their forces in defensive positions". Rabin said that it might take the Egyptian few hours to move from defensive posture to offensive. The Egyptian airforce was ready for a surprise attack against Israel, and indeed it such an attack was cancelled at the last minute on 27 May. BTW the initial Egyptian well prepared defense plan, called for concentration of the Egyptian armored divisions about 50 km from the Israeli border, in order to destroy the attacking Israeli tanks in a Pincer movement, but Nasser insisted otherwise, so nearly all of his army was position in a in the defense line about 0- 10 km from the border.
- yours:"their air forces grounded within striking distance". The Egyptian Migs daily routine was to be on alert at dawn, the traditional surprise aerial attack time, but couple of hours later they landed and stop their alert. The Israeli attack plan timing took advantage on this phenomena. Imagine what could have happened if the Migs were already on air waiting for the attacking Israeli planes? The attacking aircraft, with heavy bombs and light on fuel could have been in a serious trouble.
- back to yours: (Israel) "sure it would win any conflict within a week". Bear in mind that Israel could not win a prolonged war because of the limited resources, an French & American supply embargo, and A U.N involvement under Soviet pressure.
-Let us try a "what if" scenario:
-- the Migs were already on air waiting for the attacking Israeli planes, as a daily routine.
-- Amer would not have been panicked, and would not command to retreat disorderly. The Egyptian still could not win (without an air force) but the war would be much longer, since the Egyptian soldiers fought bravely. In this scenario, the U.N, under a heavy Soviet pressure, would stop the war while Israel could not destroy the Egyptian army.
--An Israeli deception plan succeeded to divert The best Egyptian division (Shazli's) to a side show. Imagine that they would have been positioned in the right location.
-- The Syrian and Jordanian armies would respond to the Israeli attack on Egypt with immediate full attacks. In that case, Israel would had to divert some forces from Sinai to the other fronts, and the Sinai war would take more time. Actually this was the reason that Eshkol assured Hussein that if the Jordanian attacks and bombardment would be stopped, Israel would not retaliate.
-yours: "we are expressly forbidden from using Wikipedia to write articles expressing one partisan version of events". Sure. We have to obey wp:balance:":"Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint...Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the writer's point of view."" Ykantor (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Ykantor, see my comment above, timestamped "17:00, 8 November 2014". Israeli generals said the Egyptian forces in the Sinai were insufficient in number to invade Israel. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


-to Nishidani: "Israel strove to avoid a war in full knowledge that if a war took place it was known that it would last for from 6-10 days and end in a resounding Israeli victory."
-My response was: This is true in retrospect but was not seen as such by Eshkol, the cautious Israeli prime minister. He was worried about the implication of a successful Egyptian eminent attack, and he was not sure that he could trust the Generals promises. Note that it is difficult to predict the outcome of a war. The C.I.A failed to predict the 1948 and 1973 Israeli Arab wars, which is rather high percentage of their Israel- Arab war predictions.
- Also, on May 26 1967, The C.I.A estimated:"The Israelis ... If they attack now they ... would still be able to drive the Egyptians away from the entrance to the Strait of Tiran, but it would certainly cost them heavy losses of men and materiel." (see the source in the article). So they have not foreseen a resounding Israeli victory, and the cautious Eshkol had good reasons for avoiding a war. Ykantor (talk) 13:57, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
According to Sami Sharaf, Minister of State for Presidential Affairs, ...the decision (the closure of the Tiran straits) was known (to Nasser) to make war inevitable" .(Shlaim,Louis,2012,p64)
Both the decision to close the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping- commonly accepted as the point where war became inevitable.(Ferris2012p186) [2] Ykantor (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can play that game. The war was not inevitable this, and this and this and this, where it is dismissed as an old Israeli textbook position, or the bungling at Samu and certain aspects of the military failure to secure the state's political goal (defensive) had a strong impact on the May crisis. Rabin's April decision caught the government up in a war scenario because based on intelligence that Israel could have a free hand hitting Syria because, it was thought, Nasser did not desire war). In short, Ykantor, you are picking and choosing to underwrite your personal verdict. This is an extremely complex story, with many angles, and we are under an obligation to not take sides, but (it's difficult) take the salient elements of most serious books and present them evenly.Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC) ]

inevitable- quotes[edit]

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2014[edit]

Armies and weapons[edit]

Under the heading 'Armies and weapons', first sub heading 'Armies', the last para, last line says "PAF pilots shot down several Israeli planes." The line is incorrect, as the Israeli Airforce took very little losses of planes, most of which were friendly fires and crashes. Source: 'The Six Day War' by Randolph S./Winston S. Churchill; a factual account of the war. Ghost2896 (talk) 09:33, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The claim has a source. "Very little losses" doesn't mean none - the article says 46 Israeli aircraft were lost. If the PAF pilots shot down 2 that's not a lot and wouldn't be inconsistent with "very little losses", and doesn't contradict Israel's overwheming air victory. Absent a source denying it, I don't think that's enough to remove the claim. DeCausa (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
In Operation Focus, the Israeli Sud Aviation Vautours attacked 3 times the distant Iraqi H-3 Air Base, which was hardly within their range. The Vautour was a bomber, so it was inferior to the Jordanian Hunters and the Iraqi Mig 21 in a dogfight, although a Vatour shot down an Hunter, which is a sort of a miracle. The Vatours were successful during their first attacks. The 3rd attacks was hardly a success story, although this time they were accompanied by Mirages. "A third attack was staged on June 7th after Iraqi activity against Israel was stepped up. 4 Vautours and 4 Mirages once more headed for the distant air base and in the IAF's most disastrous operation of the war, 2 Vautours and a Mirage were shot down. An Iraqi MiG-21 and 2 Hawker Hunters were downed as well." A Pakistani pilot was reportedly flying a Jordanian Hunter there." Ykantor (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Israel could win a war in few days[edit]

-Is it important to know that Israel could win in 10 days or 3 days or any other number between 3 and 10? Some editors fought bravely to keep the background section short, but now expand it with some relatively unimportant trivia.

- The source quotes Mcnamara saying what is the Israeli view and not the Israelis themselves. I am not aware that Israel published such a view. It is better to avoid this kind of inaccuracy. Ykantor (talk) 00:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree the background section should be kept short, so am OK with removing the CIA statement, which is misleading as it compares the situation to the Suez crisis, and the estimates. However, just leaving the misleading CIA statement in isn't OK. Israel's armed forces were very confident of an easy victory and were itching to get the war started. Of course Israel didn't "publish" such a view since Israel was planning to make the attack look defensive, and to paint a picture of Israel in mortal danger. We have sources that say this clearly. --Dailycare (talk) 21:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
to Dailycare:You are not replying, and it is not the first time. I will appreciate it if you reply to those 2 points. Ykantor (talk) 20:03, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
1) Yes. 2) see above. Further to point 1, the source says "3", so you cannot edit that to say "10". --Dailycare (talk) 19:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it is important. Israel waged a preemptive war, when it was known beforehand that in any conflict, whoever started it, it would win within 6-10 days and trounce the other armies. It had 280,000 men mobilized close to the Arab borders, with no logistics difficulties, whereas the combined Arab strength, in mostly defensive positions, was less than half off that, about 117,000, and with huge logistic problems. The Israeli diplomatic initiative to spin it that an Arab attack was imminent was consistently rebutted by foreign intelligence services, and going to war with that certainty is a very significant part of the narrative.Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yours: Israel "had 280,000 men mobilized close to the Arab borders" . Israel had 300 combat aircraft, Vs 950 to the Arabs. Israel had 800 tanks Vs 2500 tanks. (source- This article)
You ignore strategic and logistic facts see below. Israel had 215 combat aircraft, and the 950 of the Arabs is just mechanical arithmetic of an abstraction. The preemptive strike on Egypt's airforce wiped out 189 planes of that total within hours. By midday, Israel had total air dominance. The Syrian, Iraqi and Jordanian air probes were small-scale, insignificant, and Iraq's airfleet was far too far away to be effective. Numbers are meaningless when analysed in terms of logistical capabilities.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yours: "The Israeli diplomatic initiative to spin it that an Arab attack was imminent was consistently rebutted by foreign intelligence services". Israel foreign minister Aba Eban himself thought so, but nowadays we know that the attack was indeed imminent on the 27 May, confirmed by senior Egyptian officials.
Crap. See Qigley p.34 for the so-called Amer plan, which Oren highlights. The US 'did not take the information seriously' Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yours: "going to war with that certainty"
  1. The Israeli generals were confident, but the cautious prime minister (and some government ministers) was worried. e.g. He asked the Airforce chief what will be the chance of Tel Aviv being bombed. The General replied that there will be no massive bombing, but could be "some" bombing.
Foreign analysts knew that it was, from the outstart, a certain victory for Israel and the declaration that Tel Aviv might get a few hits, shows how confident they were.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  1. According to the KGB's deputy resident in Washington at that time, no one in Moscow had any doubt that Israel would be quickly defeated"[1]
  2. Washington, May 26, 1967. The C.I.A estimate:" The Israelis face dismaying choices. Surprised and shaken by Nasser's action, they failed to take the instant military counteraction which might have been most effective. If they attack now they will face far more formidable opposition than in the rapid campaign of 1956. We believe that they would still be able to drive the Egyptians away from the entrance to the Strait of Tiran, but it would certainly cost them heavy losses of men and materiel. We are not sure that they have sufficient stockpiles of ammunition and equipment for a war lasting more than three or four weeks, and it is possible that they would not embark upon a major campaign without prior assurances from the US of adequate resupply."[2] Ykantor (talk) 13:34, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
On May 26, yet another agency found no reason to accept Israel's assertion that Egypt would attack. A "Watch Committee" functioned under the Intelligence Advisory Committee of the National Security Council to assess international situations that might result in hostilities.- The committee examined the Israel-Egypt situation: "On the basis of our review of all available intelligence, we do not believe the Israeli claim that Egypt is preparing to launch an attack against Israel." Johnson got a more detailed CIA assessment in response to a request he had made two days earlier. The CIA confirmed Egypt's defensive posture and Egypt's vulnerability: "We estimate that (Israeli) armored striking forces could breach the UAR's double defense line in the Sinai within several days." The CIA confirmed prior assessments that the IDF held an advantage:

The Israel Defense Forces ()IDF) are at a numerical disadvantage to the combined strength of Israel's Arab neighbors in terms of aircraft, armor, artillery, naval vessels, and manpower. Nonetheless, the IDF maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations., The high quality of training and maintenance, the degree of operational proficiency,. and the important, but intangible, morale factor give the advantage to the IDF, which operates through a single command structure and over interior lines of communication.

Egypt had limited troops available, the assessment continued, and would get little help from the other Arab states:

Only the UAR, Syria, and Iraq are coordinating military activity to any extent, Jordan, with limited offensive strength, is reluctant to become heavily engaged. Iraqi participation is limited by distance ands internal security needs. Lebanon has no offensive capability. . . Johnson said to Abba Evan:' All our intelligence people are unanimous regarding the assessment; that an attack is not imminent, and that if the UAR attacks 'you will whip the hell out of them'.' (John Quigley, The Six-Day War and Israeli Self-Defense,pp.32-33.

The British intelligence estimate on 29 May was that despite Israeli insistence, 'there was no such present intention (to go to war) on the part of the U.A.R.'
What you persistently ignore is that Egypt's hot wind about closing the Straits of Tiran was, operationally, just that, hot air. It 'barely enforced' the declaration, and ships sailed through relatively unhampered. Indeed two ships sailed into Israel's port at Eilat unhampered. (Quigley p.41)
As I said, Ykantor, you are picking stuff for your thesis, whereas the sources can be harvested for the opposite view with equal facility. On Wikipedia, you are required, not to rig a POV thesis, but to simply secure a text that gives both versions. This whole exercise is pointless.Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

"Stable" version?[edit]

User:Ykantor has made this revert with the edit summary "return to the stable version. (was here from January)". The text was first added on the 21 January 2015 with this edit. In the six days between 21 January and today, the text was then removed or added seven times. Clearly, the stable version is the pre-21 January version, which has been stable for many months and in fact was first put in place in 2011. Per WP:BRD it is quite clear that the pre-21 January version should remain, and the added text should be out until there is WP:CONSENSUS for it on this talk page. DeCausa (talk) 12:58, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Correct, as far as I have checked. Ykantor? Nishidani (talk) 13:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry. My mistake. Ykantor (talk) 13:03, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Would you then self-revert please. DeCausa (talk) 13:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I am worried because of the 1RR rule. I'll revert myself in 24 hours. Sorry. Ykantor (talk) 13:38, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
As far as I know, a self-revert is not treated as a revert. See the first item under WP:3RRNO. DeCausa (talk) 14:06, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Nasser threats[edit]

I included this edit to present the other point of view that Nasser wasn't really threatening anyone, but the hostile declarations he made in the previous days of the war's outbreak constituted a major factor in Israel's decision to initiate military action (among other catalysts). Furthermore, I know people who lived in Israel at that time and remember the terror of hearing Nasser's threats to "throw the Jews into the sea". I'm ready to reach a compromise, that's why I made the last edit to create a balance, but to remove very respectable sources from historians and newspapers (including BBC) just because you find them inconvenient is not acceptable nor compatible with Wikipedia's policy.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 09:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. In accordance with WP:BRD I've restored the article to its stable version. Please read WP:CONSENSUS. If you want to introduce this change to the article, because you have been reverted by several editors, the correct course f action is for you to persuade others to your view and implement it only once there is consensus for it in this thread. As far as the addition is concerned, it is very easy to cherry pick statements from both sides to back up a POV. This seems an example of that. If that is allowed there will be those from the other POV who will want to add counterbalancing additions. This is what happened before and the section will simply end up being bloated and contentious. Because there is a separate Origins of the Six-Day War article per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE this section should have only the outline of the issues. Quotes goes beyond that IMO. DeCausa (talk) 10:59, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I see Ashurbanippal has just been blocked for 60 hours for edit-waring on another article so any response will now be delayed. DeCausa (talk) 11:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Notes[edit]

  1. ^ Yaacov Ro'i; Boris Morozov (2008). The Soviet Union and the June 1967 Six Day War. Stanford University Press. p. 13. ISBN 978-0-8047-5880-2. According to the KGB's deputy resident in Washington at that time, no one in Moscow had any doubt that Israel would be quickly defeated 
  2. ^ Sherman Kent for the Central Intelligence Agency's Board of National Estimates (May 26, 1967). "Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968 Volume XIX, Arab-Israeli Crisis and War, 1967, Document 79 79. Memorandum From the Central Intelligence Agency's Board of National Estimates to Director of Central Intelligence Helms". Washington. The most likely course seems to be for Nasser to hold to his present winnings as long as he can, and in as full measure as he can. As of the moment he has vastly enhanced his own prestige in Egypt and throughout the Arab world, diminished the standing of Israel and, at least for the moment, administered a serious setback to the US. Moreover, by simply standing where he is he places the Israelis in an extremely difficult position. He keeps the crisis at high pitch, and as long as this continues the Israelis must remain mobilized. This they cannot do for long without adverse effects upon their economy. 5. The Israelis face dismaying choices. Surprised and shaken by Nasser's action, they failed to take the instant military counteraction which might have been most effective. If they attack now they will face far more formidable opposition than in the rapid campaign of 1956. We believe that they would still be able to drive the Egyptians away from the entrance to the Strait of Tiran, but it would certainly cost them heavy losses of men and materiel. We are not sure that they have sufficient stockpiles of ammunition and equipment for a war lasting more than three or four weeks, and it is possible that they would not embark upon a major campaign without prior assurances from the US of adequate resupply.