Talk:Smilodon

Name

Um... just a thought... but, shouldn't the page have the meaning of the Latin name somewhere on it? 71.236.225.72 (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

See Etymology. WolfmanSF (talk) 04:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Categories

I'm not really understanding why my category additions which listed this animal as a pleistocene mammal, which it was, were removed. It would seem to me that a more precise placement of an extinct animal in the geologic time scale would be beneficial to readers, particularly since most readers are, assumingly, unaware of the time frames in which animals lived. This category, I argue, offers some perspective on the pleistocene era and the contemporary mammals of this epoch. There seems to me to be no good reason why it would have been removed. However, in the interest of considering the opinions of the user who reverted the edit, I am open to public comment on the issue. Thank you,

--aremisasling 02:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

• No conspiracy here: it was just an error. All reverted now. – ClockworkSoul 03:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. I apologize for my terseness. I've become accustomed to the occasional revision or deletion of my contributions for less understandable reasons. It's a touch frustrating. I'm relieved it was just a simple error. No harm done. I appreciate your quick response. --216.228.28.177 04:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • No problem: just remember, always try to asume good faith (as difficult as it may be sometimes). The few wars I've found myself in only happened because one party or another forgot that keystone policy. – ClockworkSoul 19:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction

"A fully-grown Smilodon weighed approximately 200 kilograms (450 pounds) and had a short tail, powerful legs and a large head. About the size of a lion smilodon was extremely powerful and about twice as heavy. Its jaws could open 95 degrees. Its fangs were about 17 cm (7 inches) long."

A contradiction in the same paragraph: "Smilodon weighed approximately 200 kg" and "About the size of a lion smilodon was ... about twice as heavy" 72.129.170.249 19:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Size and Weight can be different, I think the size here is referring to length and height MelicansMatkin 23:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Large prey

I've heard numerous times that their teeth would break if used to grip large prey, from people who ought to be credible but usually in the popular media and never with the details of the calculation or a link to where the calculation was published. It would be nice if someone could actually find the information. dsws 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

All I can say is that I've seen demonstrations where the demonstrator showed that the long teeth were used to deliver the typical cat "kill bite" that cats still use today to break their prey's neck. Lord Sephiroth03:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Imagine it this way. A Smilodon's teeth are like knives. How easy is it to snap a knife from front to back, versus side to side? If you stab a knife into a large animal, and the animal starts to struggle, won't it brake off at an angle? Its as simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenn12392 (talk • contribs) 04:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"saber-toothed tiger" redirects

Saber-toothed tiger and various similar names redirect here to Smilodon. However, checking a few dictionaries, they all say something like "any of various..."

• any of several extinct members of the cat family Felidae from the Oligocene to Pleistocene Epochs, having greatly elongated, saberlike upper canine teeth.[1]
• Any of various extinct cats of the Oligocene to the Pleistocene Epoch, especially one of the larger members of the genus Smilodon, characterized by long upper canine teeth.[2]

So since this is a wide, generic term that applies to more than just Smilodon, I'm going to redirect saber-toothed tiger and similar names over to the more generic saber-toothed cat. — coelacan talk — 21:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Grammar cleanup

I'm not sure what this line is supposed to be saying, but it needs to be fixed:

The summer and winter both became more extreme and North America began to dry out or begin beging covered in which would snow food sources for the Mammoth and in turn Smilodon.

If someone who's researched the subject could clean up the article a bit that'd be helpful.James A. Stewart 19:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Extinction because "did not evolve". No.

"Another theory is that the large cats did not evolve with the times like other big cats to catch their prey." -- Vague/tautological/meaningless pop cultural (mis)understanding of evolution/extinction. Of course it's true to say that if a species became extinct, then it didn't "evolve"/adapt to conditions. It's also meaningless. It's like the old saw that one can always say that a person died "because his/her heart ceased to beat." Yes, but why? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 17:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. Almost all modern species were contemporaneous with Smilodon, and have not changed much if at all since it became extinct only 10,000 years ago – a blink of an eye. The survivors did not survive by "evolving", but on the whole by being lucky for one reason or another. Likewise it is incorrect to contrast Smilodon with "modern" cats, as if these came along after it went extinct. Cats just like those that we still have lived alongside Smilodon for millions of years, and they were no more similar to it then than they are now. If Smilodon hadn't been so unfortunate, it would be "modern" too. --Richard New Forest (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

We could also ask why camels and horses became extinct in North America during this period but not elsewhere. (71.22.47.232 (talk) 07:09, 17 November 2010 (UTC))

Relationships to other subfamilies of Felidae

I changed this sentence because it is not accurate without reference to the Machairodontinae being a sister clade to the extant subfamilies. Also "modern" should be accompanied by a date of evolution (branching) comparison with the Machairodontinae and isn't the correct term. The statement was to imprecise. --Amaltheus (talk) 23:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Help with expansion

This article is too short and less detailed for an article about a well known animal. There are whole documentaries that discuss how Smilodon hunted and lived. I would expand more but I can't do it alone. Anybody intersted? Bobisbob (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is short with poorly developed sections. There are articles about the various species. I assume the Smilodon fatalis is where writers put their efforts. What kind of help do you think you need? I don't really have the time, but I'll watch the page and copy-edit your text if that will help. --Amaltheus (talk) 03:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you find me detailed articles on Smilodon? Bobisbob (talk) 15:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Too many Smilodon articles

• Shouldn't they all be concentrated here instead of having a separate article for every single species? Funkynusayri (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I just asked this at WikiProject Mammals (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mammals#Merge_articles_on_Pacas.3F), and Aranae replied "every species warrants its own page."

I don't know whether this is the general opinion at that Project or not. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• Ah, well, ok, I'm just more used to the guidelines at the Dino project, where only genera have pages. Funkynusayri (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe if there is enough evidence to warrant a large article, then a page for that species is warranted. But in general articles on extinct species are to the genus level and modern extinct and extant species to the species and even sub-species level. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In this case Smilodon fatalis adds no more detailed info, in fact Smilodon gives more info about all the species. I'd support a merge. Philcha (talk) 03:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• -- On 3 April 2008 User:Kevmin added the merge template to this rticle with the note "It has been suggested that Smilodon fatalis, Smilodon gracilis and Smilodon populator be merged into this article or section." -- Writtenonsand (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that this is a situation where we should be following WP:Dinosaurs more then WP Mammals. While Smilodon is a popular preditor most of the extinct mammals are not well known to the public, and even the species of Smilodon are not well known. As they are now Smilodon gracilis is a two sentences stub which repetes what is already said in theSmilodon article. Smilodon populator while a larger article, again repeats a large amount and has no citations for the remaining material. Looking at the other Genera in the Machairodontinae, three of the nine genera do not have an article at all and of the other six Smilodon is by far the largest an the only one which has species articles. Machairodus has 19 species listed, none with articles, and the genus article itself is 4 sentences long. For the state of extinct mammals in general look at Brontotheriidae and the Nine! extinct families of Perissodactyls, with no articals. The vast majority of prehistoric mammals are not going to have enough information for an article for every species, there just isnt enough known from the fossils.--Kevmin (talk) 15:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Although on the other hand (complicating efforts to arrive at a general policy on this) we have cases like Mammuthus, with nine species listed (eight with existing articles); possibility of more to be added (I think); and differences great enough to make lumping say, M. imperator, M. lamarmorae, and M. primigenius together in the same article to seem an inappropriate choice. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 02:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

-- FYI all: General discussion of this issue proceeding now at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mammals. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I redirected S. fatalis and S. gracilis to here, since all text there was duplicated form here, and due to previous discussions. S. populator should be too, but it has been beefed up a bit, so it'll be more tricky. FunkMonk (talk) 20:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Metric AND English

Please add English units along with the Metric units. 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Diet and hunting": "citation needed" tag

Someone's put a "citation needed" tag at the end of the final para of section "Diet and hunting". As far as I can see the citation already provided with that para covers the ground. If no explanation for the "citation needed" tag is provided within a couple of weeks I'll remove the tag. Philcha (talk) 10:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice someone has placed an HTML comment (invisible) after the "citation" tag, saying that's not what the research actually showed. It would have been helpful if the person who wrote the comment had provided the full ref - DOI is no use to non-specialist readers. I found the ref and added it. Philcha (talk) 02:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Smilodon

I always figured it was called "smilodon" because of its toothy grin. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

extinction date

The Saber-toothed cat article says it became extinct 0.008 Ma (8,000 years) ago. The opening of this article says 10,000 years ago and later on the article says 10,000 BC. So is it 6,000, 8,000 or 10,000 BC? -LambaJan (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why a Cat?

What in Smilodon morphology identifies it as a member of the cat family? Virgil H. Soule (talk) 04:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• Why not? FunkMonk (talk) 04:22, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

If you mean morphology in the linguistic sense, nothing. -LambaJan (talk) 16:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Try again: What in Smilodon skeletal anatomy identifies it as a member of the cat family?

morphology 1 a: A branch of biology that deals with the form and structure of animals and plants b: the form and structure of an organism or any of its parts. Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. Merriam-Webster 1987 Virgil H. Soule (talk) 16:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Repetition?

In the Social behavior part of the Ecology section of this article it is stated that :

Living in groups would also help with having to compete with lions and wolves. The canine teeth and body size of Smilodon were about the same in both male and female cats. This indicates that Smilodon may not have lived in male-dominated groups (and that the teeth may not have been used for attracting mates as it has been suggested).

But in the Diet and hunting it says:

A 2008 study reports evidence that, rather than a lone predator, Smilodon may have been a pack hunter, in much the same way as modern lions. Considering this, the experts behind that research speculate that its exaggerated canine teeth might have been more important for social or sexual signaling than hunting.[8][Full citation needed]

It somehow seems repetitive or not well connected? Maybe a way to word it better and not seem contradicting?

--Gchick (talk) 15:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Changes in Pop Culture section

There was a notation that the References in Popular Culture section contained way more information, of a non smilodon variety, than necessary. So I removed all the unnecessary information (like what kind of weapon the smilodon-based character on Thundercats had) but maintained the references. 76.103.252.169 (talk) 00:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Closest living relative?

The Bornean Clouded leopard is the oldest known feline species. Would this make it Smilodon's closest living realtive?

see this link--Mutley (talk) 02:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

No, because, the machairodontinae split of from the felinae/pantherinae much earlier. So all living felids are equally related to machaidrodonts.--Altaileopard (talk) 12:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Entomology?

I don't think the smilodon was a variety of butterfly, so the ENTOMOLOGY section probably needs renaming. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimKing.ie (talk • contribs) 22:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Well spotted... Corrected, but no-one would have minded if you had done it: this is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Popular figure in popular culture?

Redundant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.3.180 (talk) 15:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. --Seduisant (talk) 15:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"Known as sabre-toothed tiger"

User:Whoelius has just added "erroneously" to the statement that Smilodon is known as the sabre-toothed tiger. I'm not sure this is appropriate:

• The name "tiger" is often applied to animals other than Panthera tigris – for example, to both jaguar and leopard in some areas: the name does not necessarily belong simply to one species or taxonomic group.
• Many things are commonly known by the names of other things: Tasmanian tiger, water tiger, HMS Tiger, Komodo dragon, civet cat, slow worm (not a worm, not particularly slow), glass snake (not glass, not a snake), dragonfly (not a dragon, not a fly), rosebay willowherb (not a rose, not a bay, not a willow), red deadnettle (not red, not dead, not a nettle)... We don't try to "correct" all these or label them as erroneous.
• Wikipedia is descriptive: we state what things are called, not what we think they ought to be called. Who's to say what is correct?

I think the point is covered sufficiently in the etymology section, where it points out that it is in a different subfamily to "the" tiger. Richard New Forest (talk) 10:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

So let's take 'erroneously' out and leave it at that yes?

This is the Wikipedia after all...

Seascapeza (talk) 04:20, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Interpreting Smilodon populator's weight

I would like to present my understanding of current scientific data and estimates on the subject and appreciate everyone's feedback. Ofcourse since this involves a bit of guesswork and original research, I don't expect it to make it to the main article.

Study by Sunquists http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255137_160089730725244_100001726556474_400274_8052023_n.jpg

Study by Sorkin http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/252867_160089800725237_100001726556474_400277_262299_n.jpg

I am using these studies as the base of my assumptions. (This is as I posted on an other forum).

There seems to be a lots of debate on the weights of Smilodon populator, American lion and other extinct felines. Misconceptions include average weights of 500 or 550 kg for both. I have compared the sizes of the two Smilodons, American Lion and extant felids. I had to do some guesswork to connect the missing links. The weights of the Siberian Tiger seem to be older ones. I am also presuming that if the Tiger can reach 380 kg in world record specimens, the African Lion too can touch 350 kg although the current world record is 313 kg. I am rather weak when it comes to formatting so I am using this rudimentry format.

Smilodon populator / American Lion / Smilodon fatalis / Siberian Tiger / Bengal Tiger / African Lion (Weight in kg)

Lower average - 220 / 180 / 160 / 160 / 150 / 140

Upper average - 360 / 320 / 280 / 250 / 230 / 210

Exceptional (1) - 400+ / 350+ / 300+ / 270 / 250 / 230

Exceptional (2) - 455 / 400 / 320 / ~300 / 270 / 250

Exceptional (3) - 470 / 420 / 350 / 320 / ~300 / ~280

World record - 500+ / 450+ / 360+ / 384 / 389 / 313 (~350)

I am increasing the Bengal tiger and African lion's (lower) weights and downgrading the Siberians as the modern trend (compared to Sunquist's study).

(From the main articles) The average height at shoulder for Smilodon populator and American Lion is 1.22m and 1.2m while length excluding the tail is 2.6m and 2.5m respectively. American Lion is most certainly lot less muscular than S. populator. Shoulder height for S. fatalis is 0.91-0.99m (Same as a Bengal tiger). While modern lions can reach heights of 1.2m, that would be an exceptionally big lion. I am using figures from memory which put the extant lion's average height at 1.01m-1.10m and 0.91m-0.99m for the tiger. There are reports of large(st?) Smilodons reaching 1.6m height or 3.5m long American Lions but these would be the world record specimens.

Sorkin's study says maximal(is that a word?) for Smilodon populator, American Lion and Siberian Tiger is 470, 420 and 320 kg. Now 320 certainly isn't the absolute maximum for the Siberian, although the 384 figure is not scientifically confirmed, the Guiness records accepts 389 kg for the Bengal Tiger. The 1.6m height keeps poping up on the internet time-to-time under the name Smilodon nectator or necator (or Smilodon populator nectator?).

The average weights for the Bengal tiger and African lion are 210-220 kg and 185-200 kg. Now if I take the arithmatic mean of the lower and upper average weights of the American lion, I get 250 kg (180+320=500, 500/2=250). But more individuals will be leaning toward the lower limit than the upper limit. So the recent estimate of the American lion's average weight being 235-240 kg is correct. The mean for S. populator is 290 kg, downgrading this accordingly gives an average weight of 260-270 kg. Likewise S. fatalis would have averaged 210-225 kg.

The Cave lion would be somewhat heavier than the Siberian tiger and very slightly heavier or equal to S. fatalis. While the European homotherium (latidens) will be a bit lighter or equal in weight to the Siberian tiger. Machairodus kabir would be around 350 kg and the Giant European homotherium (crenatidens), 400 kg at the level where the American lion is 420 kg and Smilodon populator 470 kg (Upper exceptional, approaching world record). Devang.dn (talk) 06:36, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Pictoral comparison of Panthera atrox (by Segio de la Rosa) and Smilodon populator (from ABC's walking with beasts).

http://www.carnivoraforum.com/index.cgi?action=downloadattachment&board=interspecific&thread=576&post=136560&key=dPcXeV4W1bI6NUwewj4e

Devang.home47 (talk) 05:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)