Talk:Snaefell Mountain Course

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Map of the TT course[edit]

I'm hoping to soon build up a map of the TT course from all the free mapping data over at OpenStreetMap as the Isle of Man has pretty good coverage already. The main roads along the course should all be in there now I believe, so it will just require extracting from the database and styling a little. I'm thinking to keep it as simple and reusable as possible we'd just use the main roads involved and exclude everything else, but if anyone has different ideas, let me know. --dankarran 15:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sound like a good idea to keep it simple. Would you intend to add all the named locations to the map ar at least a key? Something like this or this.ww2censor 16:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
We probably should include that extra information. I'm reluctant to add it back into OpenStreetMap as the only way I could readily get that information would be to extract it from one of those maps, which could cause copyright issues... I have sent an email to the Department of Tourism to see if they would be able to help out. Where did the existing location information come from for the pages already created? --dankarran 17:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I doubt that would be a problem as all the locations information is common knowledge and can be acquired, or put together, from many sources. I think if I wanted to acquire all the location information I could look at maps, travel the course and consult IOM governmental documents to put all that together quite easily. ww2censor 22:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I would welcome a map for the Snaefell Mountain Course. First a general profile of the course at the top of the page without copyright problems. Finding genuine sources for location information for course information is more difficult than it would appear. Local places names in particular can be difficult and previous information was copied directly from The Magic of The TT. A Century of Racing over The Mountain by Mac McDiarmid complete with incorrect information incorrect spelling of Isle of Man placenames. I have added reference sources when I can find them to local information. I have now information for the Quaterbridge and Glen Helen. In the past I have used GB Ordnance Survey map references which can be useful for lat and longitude and height above sea-level. {Agljones 12:23, 5 May 2007 (UTC)}

I didn't hear anything back from the Department of Tourism, but I will be happy to make a larger map that you can add information to if you can find suitable sources. It will be a little while before I can do it (need to clean the data up a little bit still, and sort out a good method for doing it) but in the meantime I've added an overview map of the course which I've just hand-drawn over the OpenStreetMap data. --dankarran 20:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
For the time being it looks good. ww2censor 01:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Which direction on the mountain circuit are races run, clockwise or anti-clockwise – or both? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricadus (talkcontribs) 18:28, June 8, 2007)
The TT races are run clockwise. ww2censor 23:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Article name[edit]

The most common name for the course, by a long margin, is 'TT Course'. This is the name used in almost all media articles, and on maps.

In accordance with Wikipedia policy WP:TITLE, the most common name used be used for the actual title of the article, with more technically exact names used at the start.

Also, in any event, Snaefell Mountain Course is a name in its entirety, and should be capitalized.

Mauls (talk) 22:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The Isle of Man Centenary TT - ACU/MMCC Official Race Guide on page 67 refers to a map of the circuit and it decribed as the "Mountain Course" and the same publication refers to practice on the "Mountain Course." Also, the Race Guide for the 1972 Isle of Man TT Races descibes the results for the Isle of Man TT Races 1907-1910 as the "Short Course" and the TT races 1911 ownwards as the "Mountain Course." The current term is "Mountain Course" and refers to the Isle of Man TT Races and also the Manx Grand Prix which shares the same circuit. To describe the term "Snaefell Mountain Course" or "Mountain Course" as an obsolete term or 'niche term' would be incorrect and perhaps you should provided documentary evidence to your assertions inline with Wikiedia policy and aslo be careful of incorrect descriptions about the Isle of Man TT Races in either media, maps or other doucmentary evidence.
It is perhaps helpful for the reader of the article(s) to understand the difference between the Isle of Man TT Races as an event and also the "TT Course," as you refer to it, as a race circuit which is also used by the Manx Grand Prix as a seperate event. As the Wikipedia article Snaefell Mountain Course is a technical description of the course and the other documented course names such as Guthrie's Memorial, 11th Milestone and Handley's Corner etc, can be seen to be aslo technical description in accordance with Wikipedia policy WP:TITLE, the most common name used be used for the actual title of the article, with more technically exact names used at the start. In this case then the article Snaefell Mountain Course the intial description should be "Snaefell Mountain Course" instead of "(Snaefell) Mountain Course."
Despite the assertion, "the most common name for the course, by a long margin, is 'TT Course'...." it now appears that there is a policy to change all references to "Mountain Course" to "Snaefell Mountain Course" a term previously described as incorrect or a little used 'niche term.' Large-scale reversion of unrelated changes is vandalism, and you should desist from such actions. It is also unhelpful to make changes of this type as it is makes it difficult to edit articles about the Isle of Man TT Races or start new articles about the ".... other incarnations at earlier times..." If there is a random policy to change description to "Snaefell Mountain Course," again, perhaps you should provided documentary evidence to your assertions inline with Wikiedia policy and aslo be careful of incorrect descriptions of the the Isle of Man TT Races or Manx Grand Prix in either media, maps or other doucmentary evidence. (Agljones (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC))
Perhaps a look at the media who know about the IOM TT would be a good place to start: IOM TT website and Manx GP website who use the term Snaefell Mountain Course will help you see that this is the appropriate title; especially this page. TT Course can refer to any of the courses used to run TT races on, so is quite wrong because it is confusing even though it is used as a redirect that name should be a disambiguation page. Some use the name TT Mountain Course, even the IOM TT website. The Isle of Man government refer to it as the "Mountain Course" here and "TT Mountain Course" here amongst other instances of both but not as "TT Course". ww2censor (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Corner Names[edit]

The name 'Ago's Leap' is a misnomer for the section of road between Brunswick Road/Selbourne Drive and the Quarterbridge Road junction with Bray Hill/Cronkbourne Road in Douglas and is an unofficial name used by the media and TV commentators. This section of Quarterbridge Road was subject to repair work to the foundation and the profile and chamber of road during the winter of 1978/1979 by the Isle of Man Highway Board. This was in response to a series of incidents which occured during the 1978 Isle of Man TT Races and due to the subsequent road works 'Ago's Leap' effectively ceased to exsist. The name is neither an official or unofficial name and has no use outside of either the Isle of Man TT Races or Manx Grand Prix. The term is effectively an euphemism adopted by some sections of the media to avoided a name adopted by the Isle of Man and UK media for this section of Quarterbridge Road after the serious incidents that occured during the 1978 Isle of Man TT Races. (Agljones (talk) 09:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC))

Deadliest race course[edit]

With six fatal accidents in 2011 alone, and 240 driver fatalities to date, this is the deadliest race course in the world. You might think something like that would be discussed in the article prose, at least briefly. --89.0.231.57 (talk) 06:11, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Dakar Rally is considered to be the deadliest race with statistically more fatal accidents per event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.137.23.55 (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Dakar Rally isn't a race track. --Falcadore (talk) 02:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
There has been a discussion of some of the safety issues on the talk page section of the Isle of Man TT Races. The Mountain Course is also used by the Manx Grand Prix. Agljones 21:42, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Peel Circit[edit]

Was looking for inofrmation about the Peel Circuit used for karting and I can't find out anything in Wikipedia. --Falcadore (talk) 02:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

sources, including data of deaths and memorials, for named corner articles[edit]

I've noticed that there's GIS location data available for deaths and memorials of Isle of Man TT racing, at Memorials from the Isle of Man TT Races. The data is provided and copyrighted by Ray Moore, Claire Corkill, 2012, so to use it for maps would require permission. But I expect it could be used to add info to articles about the different named corners such as Gooseneck, Isle of Man and Windy Corner, Isle of Man. I also came across other sources not used yet in articles, I think, would like to get the word to editors developing/maintaining these articles. Is this the central discussion place? Also I see that Isle of Man TT course redirects to this article, but that's not noted in the article. --doncram 05:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the GIS info, which I did not see on the page you link to, is original research of Ray Moore and not common knowledge that anyone can research and find for themselves? We cannot plagerise or copy/paste copyright information into articles though we can use elements in our own words with citations to the original source. I don't know what you mean by the last comment. ww2censor (talk) 10:32, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
The publication Isle of Man TT Circuit Memorials Revisited by Paul Copparelli and Peter Mylchreest lists the memorials that the GIS location data article makes reference too and would be suitable as a Wikipedia secondary source. The roadside memorials are listed in at least two articles for Guthrie's Memorial and Ballaugh Bridge. In respect to these articles about the corners on the Snaefell Mountain Course, a more respectful low-key approach to safety issues is maintained in the English language versions of these articles which is not found in the equivalent articles on Wikipedia Nederlands. It is certainly a point to consider and the Copparelli / Mylchreest Memorials publication could be used to make reference to the Gilberto Parlotti memorial near to the Black Hut at the Verandah. The article for Birkin's Bend makes no reference to a roadside memorial as I understand that no roadside memorial exists for the Isle of Man TT competitor Archie Birkin. This article has been recently been subject to an article deletion review along with many other articles about the corners on the Snaefell Mountain Course which has slowed down the process of developing/maintaining the articles due to one particular editor repeatedly making unnecessary references to article notability and original research. agljones(talk) 20:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Adding racer and spectator deaths info, and memorials info, and photos of the corners themselves (hopefully of racers going through them!) would defend the articles, give them more detail than is suitable for merging. About Birkin, the Moore & Corkill source also shows no memorial for him. But searching by location for "Birkin's Bend" gives 2 photos of memorial M221: "Memorial plaque at Rhencullen to Emrys Watkins (2002), a spectator." To search by name or by location, click on the "Query" link from the intro page I gave above (and that brings you to this query page ).
About getting all the GIS data, for entire history of deaths and memorials, click on "Downloads" link; it's available in CSV format (can go into Excel) or PDF, The authors Moore & Corkill make that all publicly available, although they mark it copyrighted. They provide contact info for Moore at University of York. Approached nicely, it's possible/likely they'd agree to release under license wikipedia can use. I'd otherwise be uncomfortable using all of it to make a map of it all. But I think we can report, in any one corner article, a few pieces of the info it provides, with clear sourcing to them, without requiring any permission. I am not an expert on copyright, just want to follow it, not have authors who spent a lot of hours developing data see it just copied into Wikipedia, and rightly complain (like I saw happen for locations of sunken ships in the U.S. Great Lakes, upon publication of a book).
And about the other sources I referred to, i posted them in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gooseneck, Isle of Man, an AFD in progress. I list at least 9 sources, while I think only 1 or 2 of them have been used in Isle of Man TT articles so far. I added some info to the Gooseneck, Isle of Man article from what I could see of those sources, as some are behind paywalls. Could editors here split up the list, about who could get which, and then agree to split out to editors willing to work systematically through each source, adding all info to articles? Like the David Wright book (which has been used as a source), includes usable info for many/all corners...I took info from this Google book link to Wright's pages on Gooseneck. I'm sure someone has the book and could go through it to get info for many separate places. Ditto for other sources. --doncram 05:03, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I am aware of the small memorial at Rhencullen and it is situated on a wall close to Birkin's Bend. The issue with the AFD deletions have raised problems with Wikipedia rules regarding notability and original research. Listing memorials would help with the notability issues. However, Wikipedia rules state that a source(s) with a neutral point of view must be used to define notability and Isle of Man TT publications do not fall into this category. There have been issues also of plagiarism with the equivalent Wikipedia Nederlands articles and using large blocks of text from English language Isle of Man TT publications. It is not advisable to use just one or two Isle of Man TT publications as there has been problems with inaccuracies and inconsistencies which have been found in Wikipedia articles. The article List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents refers to the death of competitors and the low-key approach is more respectful and to avoid the unnecessary banality that is found for the equivalent articles for the Dakar Rally and Le Mans 24 Hours races. The GIS data link for competitor fatalities appears to be a basic summary of the information found in the publication Isle of Man TT & MGP Memorial by Paul Bradford. There has been two informal memorials that have appeared on the Snaefell Mountain Course in the last six months and the memorial for Petr Hlavatka (No 158) has also been demolished in a recent RTA. I would guess that further AFD deletions nominations will follow in the next few months which has stopped any attempts at improving the articles as the problems with alleged notability and original research continue. agljones(talk) 20:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

maps for named corners articles[edit]

Gooseneck
Snaefell Mountain Course is located in Isle of Man
Snaefell Mountain Course
Location of Gooseneck in Isle of Man
Coordinates 54°18′17″N 4°22′51″W / 54.30472°N 4.38083°W / 54.30472; -4.38083Coordinates: 54°18′17″N 4°22′51″W / 54.30472°N 4.38083°W / 54.30472; -4.38083
Isle of Man TT course

In every single named corner article, there oughta be a map included, showing its location on the course. Like how maps appear in all other types of location articles, for historic sites, for towns, etc.

This application of {{infobox historic site}} and an OpenStreetMap from Commons category:Snaefell mountain course circuit maps are the best I can find quickly to illustrate Gooseneck, Isle of Man article, but can anyone do better? I used the historic site infobox simply because I'm familiar with it; maybe there's a better infobox to use? It can hold an image and caption and more, of course. I'd like a large scale map plus a zoomed in one that shows the "gooseneck" shape of the road. If anyone can improve upon these, I'd appreciate it. --doncram 05:59, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Speeds through named corners?[edit]

Are there sources for speeds of top racers through specific named corners? The course record is now over 132 miles per hour (212 km/h). A general quote about turns, in 1979, is that racers enter turns at 100 mph and "lean at dizzying angles":

It goes without saying that in 37 miles the course offers every conceivable combination of turns, banks, elevation changes and straights. The challenge is multiplied by the fact that many corners are absolutely blind. They might be sweepers or hairpins, uphill or downhill combinations, turns preceded by "jumps" or turns preceded by flat-out blasts down straight sections. Regardless, the rider must pitch his machine in at over 100 miles per hour, lean at dizzying angles...and trust to memory what lies ahead.[1]

References
  1. ^ Andy Whipple (September 1979). "Paradise Found". American Motorcyclist (American Motorcycling Association) 33 (8): 24. 

I try using that general source in editing the Windy Corner, Isle of Man article, but it is not specifically about that location. Are there speed measurements collected by radar at specific locations? Or measurements around the course from one racer's circuit? Such info would help for the named corner articles. --doncram 10:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)