Talk:Sobibór extermination camp

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I removed the line about the mosquito problem in the memorial section. I was a new user at the time, and would have added an explanation here then, but didn't realize that was the purpose of the "discussion" page! Sorry.

Anyway, my thought was that a warning about mosquitos was disrespectful to those who died there.

It might be very good to add a section at the end called "Visiting Sobibor." Then information such as where to go, what to bring, etc. could be appropriate. I've never been there however, so I'm not the person to write it. However, I've looked at other Holocaust-related sites and there seems to be no precedent for "instructions for visitors" so I'm not sure if that is an approved type of section?

Grumpy otter 12:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought the part about mosquito infestation seemed a little out of place, but then I thought "Hey, that note could save somebody's day." Good job. 05:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

180,000 minimum is calculated thus: 101,370 Jews in 1942, according to Hoefle + transport data from Arad, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka", pp. 147, 390, 391 + transport data from

-- 15:44, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

260,000 figure finds no support in the sources. The figure in Hoefle's telegram and transport lists in Arad's book sum up to about 180,000.

It should be noted that the Soviet POWs mentioned in the stub were Jews deported from Minsk ghetto. Among them was First Lieutenant Alexander (Sasha) Pechersky, the leader of the famous Sobibór uprising.bull

You may have read it everywhere, nevertheless it is wrong: the gas chambers in Sobibór (as in Belzec and Treblinka; ditto the gas vans of the Einsatzgruppen, in Chelmno and Maly Trostinez) were not "fed with the exhaust of a diesel motor" but with the exhaust of a petrol driven Otto motor. If you don't believe that, see the interrogations and trial minutes of the 3 (!) T-4 men in charge of the gassings, Erich Bauer, Erich Fuchs and Franz Hödl. They even discussed problems with the ignition, which a Diesel motor, as is generally known, does not have. A reason for this widespread "Diesel story" may be that they used Diesel motors in the Reinhardt camps indeed, but only for their small generating plants. Hödl reported that they once tried a Diesel motor for the the gas chambers, but it did not work! -- P. Witte 00:39, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why isn't Sobibor one of the links in the Jewish resistance during the Holocaust category ( I don't know how to link this page there, can someone tell me how to do it or do it themselves. Flyerhell 08:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Could someone give a link to Hodl saying that he was working on petrol engines not diesels. I have not been able to find much on Hodl. If Hodl had tried an engine and it failed that can be interpreted a couple of ways - interested to see if we can now do 180 degree turn and dump diesel - almost all sites still hang to diesel. 14:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Are 'confessions' of Germans more worth than the confessions of witches in the middle-ages? About eyewitness' testimonies: they are all controversial, if not extremely unrealistic. Diesel or petrol? This is no more of major importance since Prof. Kola, Prof. Archeology of the University of Torun, (2001), and a team of the Ben-Gurion University and the Polish archeologist Wojciech Mazurek (2007) researched the 4 ha area (Camp 3), did hunderds of borings, and found no remnants of the 'gaschamber', a solid building of 16 x 10 meter, with cellars,a mechanical floor and a railwaytrack going to the mass-geraves.(Ref.: Die Akte Sobibor, 2009, p.75-81). Himmler and Oswald Pohl wrote about Sobibor as a transitcamp ('Durchgangslager') or Sonderkommando (Special Workshop). Himmler ordered to construct a workshop for recycling Russian ammunition in his letter to Pohl of 15 juli 1943.. S. Verbeke, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codoh (talkcontribs) 09:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

"Are 'confessions' of Germans more worth than the confessions of witches in the middle-ages? About eyewitness' testimonies: they are all controversial, if not extremely unrealistic." Not heard the testimony of people who survived etc described as controverstial or unrealistic - controverstial to whom - Neo nazis and anti-semites? From this chap's comments above it appears that it was just an ammunition factory and I suppose any deaths were due to the mosquitoes? Also the use of the german word Sonderkommando in this context seems a bit of a red herring - we all know what 'they' meant by that euphemism. They lied about it then to cover it up and now people lie about it to try and claim it all never happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather Sobibor[edit]

The Germans were using German (Kulmhof) or Germanized (Sobibor, Belzec) names, rather than the Polish ones. So the village is Sobibór, but the camp rather Sobibor, like in German documents. There was no "ó" on German keybords. Xx236 07:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on this. --HanzoHattori 21:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

122 feet of sleeping space?[edit]

"Each prisoner was given about 122 feet of sleeping space." Surely cubic feet?

What is the source for this? 122 feet is a small apartment in New York, not what someone would normally think of as the sleeping space of a concentration camp internee? 09:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
120 cu ft = 6ft x 5ft x 4ft. That sounds like generous by the standards of Nazi concentration camps. Grant65 | Talk 11:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Cubic feet? Who measures living space in cubic feet? Lager I allowed "approximately twelve square feet of sleeping space" per prisoner, according to Thomas Blatt's website. I'll edit the page.— OtherDave 18:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Leon Feldhendler[edit]

This article does not mention Leon Feldhendler who plotted the escape and organised the escape from the second camp —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cxbdi (talkcontribs)

I added his information myself. He was part of the escape plot long before Sasha even arrived at the camp, and his part in the uprising should not be forgotten. Ladycplum (talk) 03:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Archaeological survey[edit]

Did any archaeological survey happen in the camp area, like in Belzec? 13:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The History Channel actually showed a VERY interesting documentary called "Inside a Death Camp", all about Sobibor. A fairly big team of archaelogists came and mapped out the site using geomagnetic equipment, to more accurately show where the camp was. Toivi Blatt helped them out with his own sketches. They found scattered burial pits in the woods, silverware, bone fragments, tubes of toothpaste, tins of shoe was really amazing. Ladycplum (talk) 03:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There were several archaeological surveys: Prof. Kola (2001), the Ben Gurion University (2007) and a private Polish archeologist(2007). They found a lot, but not that what they were searching for. They found some scattered burial pits, but no remnants of the concrete solid 18 x 10 m. gaschamber building, no cellars with a floors, no railwaytracks from there to the massgraves, etc. See my comment under "Miscellaneous". See "Die Akte Sobibor", 2009. S. Verbeke, 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codoh (talkcontribs) 09:16, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

New info about labor camps[edit]

I added a bit of history about the labor camps so that the later reference to Krychow would be clear, but I see now that my citation link doesn't seem to be working--I'll try to fix it. LATER--still can't get it to work--I've removed the reference for now and have yelled for help on the "editing" page. I'll try to fix it as soon as possible. Grumpy otter 13:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's working now, thanks to some helpful Wikipedia people! My plan now is to work on adding other references and expanding the article. Grumpy otter 11:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Polish killings of escapees[edit]

"Some died on the mine fields surrounding the site, and some were recaptured and shot by the Germans in the next few days, but survivors' accounts also indicate that many of the escapees were killed by the Polish underground and civilians, including a massacre of ten former prisoners on or about 17 October 1943 in the forest to the south west of the camp." - while it is clear why Polish civillians would have reported survivors to the Nazis, what possible motive would their have been for actually killing them themselves? Especially in the case of the Polish underground who revealed the existence of death camps to the outside world and in their fight against the Germans provided support for various Jewish uprisings. Woscafrench (talk) 19:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

camp survivor and minor revolt co-plotter Thomas Blatt said in an interview with WMRA that the nearby farmers figured escapees would be carrying smuggled valuables with them to aid in their getaway --killing escapees not only helped farmers dodge the nazis' summary death penalty for assisting escapees but also held the glittering prospect of providing gold coins or other loot. just bury the corpses and no one tells any tales. (not sure why underground would have killed escapees except that they might blab the whereabouts of the underground personnel and sites.)Cramyourspam (talk) 16:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Village Sobibór, but camp Sobibor[edit]

Nazis wouldn't care less for the proper spelling. -- (talk) 14:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

undid latest edit[edit]

There was some information added that was very unclear--began in the middle of a sentence so it made no sense. It also deleted information that finished the thought in the paragraph. The user was a school--so I'm assuming some kids may have gotten hold of it--they also had several warnings about useless contributions.

Some of the information seemed like it might be useful, but was not cited and should be placed in the part of the article that deals with the prisoners.

I undid the edit. Grumpy otter (talk) 16:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be "Sobibor"[edit]

The German name. And Sobibór article should be about the village of Sobibór. Also a separate article about the uprising in Sobibor. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 06:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I moved this page and created a stub for Sobibór village. Ausir (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


What formations they were? In the movie they don't have SS uniforms. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


Now when it's "up to 200,000", the numbers in the article don't quite add. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The Hilberg’s book The Destruction of the European Jews comes in 3 volumes. There is also a condensed version for students. I used the 3 volumes revised version published in 1985. Unfortunately I have copied for myself from the Hilberg’s book only a few pages including this one where is a table showing the number of deaths by case. I am not an American, so this book is no more reachable for me. For now I removed the numbers of deaths by country from the article. If you are from U.S., I hope you find this book and add the correct numbers of deaths by country with a cite. Thank you. — Albert Krantz ¿? 09:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC).

Just to be clear - 250,000 of the 200,000 people who were killed were Jews? Is this why so little time or attention is given to the Christian Poles and myriad others who were killed. No doubt many thousands died - but this sort of sloppy, cherry-picked number picking lends creedence to the notion that the '6 million' figure is itself actually very inflated and picked for 'symbolic' reasons that don't bear scrutiny such as comparing alamanac population figures, etc. I suspect the truth lay somewhere in the middle of the 'Revisionists' and the 'Criticism is Racism' crowd. Sloppy work like this doesn't help. (talk) 20:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Nick C.

How to categorize and copyright SS pictures when uploading?[edit]

I'd like to use these from --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 07:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Death of Leon Feldhendler[edit]

I've attempted to improve the sourcing on the matter of who killed Feldhendler. Here is a summary of the changes:

  • Reformatted existing references, giving fuller bibliographical details
  • Added sources that specifically state that:
  • Feldhendler was killed by the NSZ
  • The NSZ was a right-wing, anti-semitic organization
  • Removed sources that don't specifically mention who killed Feldhendler -- except those that are from books whose contents I've been unable to verify. If in fact these sources don't relate to the issue of who the perpetrators were, feel free to remove the references.
  • Removed an EL to an unpublished MS-Word doc off a discussion board. Please see Wikipedia:External links:Links normally to be avoided:
  • 10. Links to... chat or discussion forums/groups.
If this is a legitimate published source that would meet Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, please restore it along with its publication information. A translation would also be helpful.

--Rrburke(talk) 16:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Great, thanks, this needed sorting out.--Kotniski (talk) 16:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is the evidence of an extermination camp?[edit]

Sorry, I see little or no evidence presented here that Sobibor was in fact an extermination camp as is claimed. At best there is a reference to Raul Hilberg's work, but he clearly has multiple conflicts of interest. Surely something more must have been used in the trials, right? (talk) 14:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC) I saw the movie. Everybody had a great amber glowing time there.They grew trees on the place and there is an museum to see.Talk to Magibon 14:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

You will find latest and accurate information in "Die Akte Sobibor" (von einem Autorenkollektiv, december 2009). It will be published soon in english, french and dutch. S. Verbeke, april 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codoh (talkcontribs) 09:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Petrol engine ?[edit]

Hello! I am reading Pr. Raul Hilberg's book, "The Destruction of the European Jews", and "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka : the Operation Reinhard death camps" by Yitzhak Arad who served as the director Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Authority, for 21 years (1972-1993), and both authors write that it was a diesel engine that was used to produce carbon monoxide sent into the gas chambers. So why is it written "petrol engine" here without any explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Because diesel engines do not produce that much CO. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I accept your answer, but it does not justify replacing 'diesel engine' with 'petrol engine' without quoting a reliable source. (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely right! Most sources talk of diesel both for here and Treblinka, though there appears to be greater ambiguity in the case of Sobibor. It is true (and easily verifiable) that diesel engines running normally produce negligible CO. (talk) 16:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The error was corrected more than five years ago. I have the book by Schelvis here - he cites testimony that it was a petrol engine. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Based on what sources was it "corrected"? You cite a single source. Many other sources say diesel. Isn't it simply a case of the diesel engine had to be abandoned when it was realised it wouldn't have worked? No solid evidence one way or the other? (talk) 19:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
To Pieter Kuiper: You say an error was corrected more than five years ago, in 2004, but the source for this correction is not obvious. You mention a book by Schelvis, without giving a title, but the only book by Schelvis which appears in the current references' list for the Sobibor extermination camp article was published in 2007, three years after the 'petrol engine' correction of 2004. You say Schelvis cites a testimony about a petrol engine. Can you please quote Schelvis' book, and also give us the name of the person who testified? Thank you! (talk) 17:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Schelvis' book was first published in Dutch in 1993. In the chapter about the gas chambers, he quotes 1963 testimony by Erich Fuchs, who told the German court how he installed a big petrol engine. In the same chapter, Schelvis quotes a statement by Gasmeister Erich Bauer, who also said it was a petrol engine. Franz Hödl mentions two engines, a petrol engine and a diesel engine, but states that the diesel engine was never used for gassing. The book also quotes Rudolf Reder, who spoke about a petrol engine, but that was in Belzec. The only one mentioning a diesel engine being used for gassing was Kurt Gerstein, but he may never have seen it himself. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps we could use your answer as the basis of an improved description of the extermination camp? Truly the testimony of Erich Fuchs is capital, because he was identified as the man who installed the deadly engine at the camp, in Sobibor. Interrogated after his arrest in 1963, Fuchs is reported to have said: "It was a heavy Russian benzene engine (presumably a tank or tractor motor) at least 200 horsepower (V-motor, 8 cylinder, water cooled)." -Dick de Mildt, In the name of the people... The court established that Fuchs spent one month at the camp, during which he instructed his replacement, Erich Bauer, in the technique of operating the gas chamber. In 1949, Bauer said: “In my opinion it was a petrol engine, a big engine. I think a Renault.” -Schelvis, Sobibor: A History of a Nazi Death Camp (Berg, 2007) p. 102. This is funny, that he said: "In my opinion...", if he was indeed the man who operated the engine used to kill masses of people during so many months. We can surely leave that aside, but what do you think: Should this Wikipedia article say that the engine was Russian or French? Dick de Mildt also writes that the engine installed by Fuchs was replaced by a more 'efficient' version in October 1942. This second engine really should be mentioned! And now, back to my original question: Who are we going to quote for the petrol engine? Maybe Schelvis determined that Fuchs and Bauer, despite their differences over the origin of the engine, should take precedence over Kurt Gerstein who was quoted by Hilberg, saying that the supervisor of the gassing operation, Globocnik, had told him: “Your other duty will be to improve the service of our gas chambers, which function on diesel engine exhaust.” But in this article, Hilberg is referenced after the number of victims (200,000+) while (I read that) Schelvis writes of 170,000+. Who decides what to take and what to take not from which source? In other words, do we have a legitimate source that says that Schelvis is right on this, but Hilberg is right on that? (talk) 18:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
And now I see we have '299,000' down at the bottom... Does anyone else get the feeling that people just make this stuff up as they go along...? Pfistermeister (talk) 22:28, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the following information, dug up on the web, might be useful:

From the Nizkor Project archive:

Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial, Dusseldorf: (Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 31-32). .....We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube. I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas. Following this, as gassing experiment was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above mentioned SS members and the Ukrainian auxiliaries. when the women were shut up in the gas chamber I and Bolender set the motor in motion. The motor functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched from "Neutral" (Freiauspuff) to "Cell" (Zelle), so that the gas was conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead.

From the Gas Chambers Introduction [] section of the ARC (Aktion Reinhard Camps) website:

Petrol engines (a statement by Peter Witte (German historian): ... The case of Sobibor is even more indisputable. In this case even three former Gasmeister (“Gasmasters” / Erich Bauer, Erich Fuchs, and Franz Hödl), who must have really have known the facts, since they all killed with the same motor, confirmed in court that it was definitely a petrol motor. Bauer and Fuchs, having been professional motor mechanics, simply quarrelled during the trial about whether it was a Renault motor or a heavy Russian tank motor (probably a tank motor or a tractor motor) having at least 200 PS. They also disputed whether the method of ignition was a starter or an impact magnet, which diesel motors obviously do not have, being self-igniting (the famous Russian T 34 tank originally had a petrol motor, the diesel version was introduced later, and was rarer).
At all Aktion Reinhard camps diesel engines were used in motor rooms but they were much smaller (testified: 15 PS motors / 220 Volt / 20 Ampere) and were used as generators and for lighting purposes. Perhaps this may have been the source of confusion regarding the real use of the petrol motors.

Unfortunately, no information is given about the source of Peter Witte's statement. I suspect that it may have been quoted by Yitzhak Arad. A Holocaust History Project webpage and another from the Yizkor Book Project refer to a number of Witte's writings, which may contain more information.

-- ZScarpia (talk) 01:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

RE: Himmler had trees planted. Is there any source for this? I have heard this many times but I suspect this is unsourced. Himmler and Pohl mentioned the transit camp at Sobibor in 1943 ( memos to each other ). There are several other German army memos mentioning the transit camp at Sobibor - is the official story that Himmler et al were trying to fill their files with bogus information to help their post war trials? I doubt they thought their future after defeat was going to be improved by that means. I suspect they knew that victory or death was their options. (talk) 15:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC) Is Kola's study published anywhere? I have not been able to find it - only reviews of it. One article mentioned that the entire area is a swamp/marsh. Kola drilled down +-15 feet, but this article says he couldn't dig down that far without being over his head in water. Sobibor seems to be dying a fast death, the only evidence for Sobibor is that there is no evidence for Sobibor. (talk) 15:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)There have been several non-denier scientific expeditions to Sobibor that have come up totally empty - this information gets suppressed as surely as if it was done by CODOH and Irving ( unfortunately they non-deniers/believers and the before mentioned SOBs come up with the same evidence - zero.) (talk) 13:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC) Removing the evidence serves what purpose - it should be gently inserted in the article ie "Continuing scientific studies have failed to turn up yadayada ..." (talk) 13:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Misleading photo, "Krychow"[edit]


It is obviously the village of Sobibór (small civilian houses with white walls, no wire, small chimneys, a huge watch tower). I guess the uploader never seen a real KL/KZ barrack, crematorium nor a guard tower. Here's Majdanek for a reference:,10_10_2008,PA100077.jpg I wonder for how long it stays here and no one noticed? Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned there are just no pictures of this camp in existance. Zero, null, none.

Also, there's just no such place as "Krychow" (redlinked as in the article) in Poland. There's (was) only Krychów. It was a small experimental "prison village" (prison colony, named after deputy interior minister Krychowski) before the war, later a mysterious concentration camp, first for Gypsies, then for Poles, and finally since the end of 1941 for the Jews from Poland and also Czechoslvakia & Austria. The German name is actually unknown, and so is the date of the liqudiation, or the numbers of inmates and victims (thousands acording to the locals). -- (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I know that near Sobibor the railroad tracks switched gauge. Ws this in the village of Sobibor or how far away. Sobibor - with no population to speak of - looks like a switching yard near the Polish-Russian border. (talk) 15:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I checked what maps I could find and it appears that the extermionation camps were all on the border with Russia. Transporting people that far too kill them seems less likely than dumping them for the Russians to take care of - feed and house. The lack of discovered remnants make Sobibor and Treblinka look like switching yards or refueling depots. A huge expense to transport people for murder and have no murder facility setup. (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

re apparent holocaust-denier above: most remains were burnt, but the ground there still produces lots of small bone crumbs (here's a visitor's video of that). plenty of documentary evidence too --reports of locals, a few survivors, and the court records. do some reading, yo. Cramyourspam (talk) 15:00, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


It says in the beginning paragraph that "possibly Gypsies were at Sobibor" as well. In the book, Escape from Sobibor, Thomas "Toivey" Blatt said that it was specifically only Jews who were sent to Sobibor.--Splashen (talk) 04:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

It's unsourced and unmentioned in the actual article. Given your statement above, I've removed it. Jayjg (talk) 22:54, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Disposal of corpses[edit]

I saw nothing in the article on the disposal of corspses, surely a very significant part of the history of Sobibor Hardicanute (talk) 12:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute

Chain of Command subtitles[edit]

Under Sobibór extermination camp#Chain of Command, the first five sub-titles are of the form "job, Germans and Austrians" (e.g. "Commandant, Germans and Austrians"). This is ambiguous, and could mean a list of three things, or that the job was done by Germans and Austrians (which is what I suspect is meant). I'd like to change the format to "job (Germans and Austrians)". Comments, objections? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 07:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

For some reason, the trial of John Demjanjuk has been repeated twice here. Valleyspring (talk) 05:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Libodenko Wartownick? I doubt the surname is real - Wartownik is a Polish word meaning "sentry" or "guard", "watchman". Treating this word as a surname sounds odd.

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Sobibor extermination campSobibór extermination camp – Is the name of this camp Sobibor or Sobibór? Shouldn't we try to be uniform about it? --Relisted. EdJohnston (talk) 01:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC) Hoops gza (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Support Comment (see below). The current name comes from the German Vernichtungslager Sobibor, but the actual placename was and still is Sobibór; that's how we find it on a map of Poland. Auschwitz is an exception, because it was a complex of camps spanning dozens of nearby locations, as oppose to Chełmno extermination camp for example (note the Polish spelling, in German it was called Kulmhof). Poeticbent talk 20:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
We can also go the other way around and keep the German spelling of all camps in Poland: i.e. Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec (not Bełżec), but then it would only make sense to rename the camps in other languages as well, for example the Sajmište concentration camp on the outskirts of Belgrade, renamed to Semlin concentration camp from the German Judenlager Semlin (officially), etc. Poeticbent talk 21:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The second sentence in this article's lead states that "the official German name was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibór" (unsourced).Hoops gza (talk) 21:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The move request isn't really a request. Once the correct title has been established, then this should be moved, if applicable. Both the German and Polish article are spelt Sobibor not Sobibór.Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
In the German Wiki we have "Vernichtungslager Belzec" and in the Polish Wiki "death camp (obóz zagłady) in Bełżec" so they are not spelt consistently there. Poeticbent talk 13:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Other languages have no direct bearing on the article name. The only relevant question is how the name is most commonly spelled in English. While Google Ngrams aren't always perfect, the evidence here says that it isn't even close [1]. Moving would be an error. (talk) 15:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, the results are quite compelling: about 49,100 results for "Sobibor", and about 2,840 results for "Sobibór". Perhaps we should run a similar test on all of the above names, what do you think? Poeticbent talk 18:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
No, since the Google Book Search OCR doesn't recognize diacritical marks, that approach in not useful. If you click through to the book hits for Sobibor, you find one with accent out of the first few. There are a few in the ngram with accents, because not all data comes via OCR. Dicklyon (talk) 02:23, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Per Dicklyon, and also Poeticbent I don't understand your search above. Surely we need to search in English books which can/do have full fonts for Polish names, like Wikipedia can and does, and then see if they drop the u (I assume everyone realises that ó indicates a u-sound in Polish not an accented o), only then can we claim that reliable sources are giving the camp a special "English" name. But as it stands a look through Google Books shows that full-font English books are all spelling the camp as it is pronounced in Polish. e.g. Heberer Children During the Holocaust Page 172, Niewyk The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust Page 208 and so on. Not a single reliable-for-spelling source seems to be spelling the camp differently from the village. So why should we? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Re: search from above. Please click on the link.[2] You will see the two lines; at the end of the first one is "sobibor" (hotlinked), and at the end of the second line is "sobibór". Open them in separate tabs if you want. The trick is that the "sobibór" link (with diacritic) displays the results in Google transliterated as "sobib%C3%B3r" so no other results could show up. Poeticbent talk 04:51, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
User:Poeticbent, how does this relate to my comment? So some English books are equipped with full fonts and some aren't. So what exactly? Wikipedia is equipped with full fonts and uses them. I repeat the question, why should we deliberately misspell (or underspell) a Polish place name? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
In the opening line you said you don't understand that search, which btw wasn't mine. I explained its unique nature, that's all. But we also have a WP: Common name policy/guideline here which says (quote): "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources..." that's why I remain undecided. Poeticbent talk 00:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the policy; we're not calling it Sobibór in anyway because it's an "official name", but because it's wikipedia's policies & guidelines to use diacritics in such cases. walk victor falk talk 00:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Exactly as Victor says. The guideline Poeticbent you are citing specifically gives a French president with a cedilla as an example that common name does not relate to fonts/MOS issues. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
OK, I hear you. I changed my vote back to support, but we need to deal with Bełżec as well, if this is going to fly. Poeticbent talk 12:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Let's forestall that. I have restored that to 2009-2012 title per WP:AT Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles and WP:COMMONNAME in English sources such as Dan Stone. You're correct that there's no reason why it should be different. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support per In ictu oculi. Wikipedia articles commonly include diacritics in such cases, pergeographical naming conventions. walk victor falk talk 07:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - If this page is renamed, then its category tree should be nominated for speedy renaming, which is perfectly fine. But what about the navbox for this camp? Is there a bot that can change the text on each page on which the navbox appears?Hoops gza (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semion Rozenfeld[edit]

Semion Rozenfeld was one of the Russian-Jewish soldiers who escaped. He rejoined the Russian army and took Berlin, defeating Germany and ending that countries involvement in World War II. Will someone please add him to this article?

-Teetotaler 21 May, 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:28, 21 May 2014 (UTC)