Talk:Socialist-style emblems

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Nazi heraldry?[edit]

Interesting how the People's Republic of China bases it's ears of wheat design it seems from the East German design; which at least seems inspired in it's more solid shape from the likes of the Oak Leaves that were so prevalent on Nazi designs like here. Thinking of such things makes me think we need a "Nazi heraldry" page, there is a lot that could go there certainly. 67.5.157.93 (talk) 09:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the East German design was not inspired by Nazi oak leaves. The similarities between them are due to the fact that they are both loosely based on the much older design of the laurel wreath, which goes as far back as the Roman Empire. Laurel leaves - or leaves of other decorative or "noble" plants, such as oak - have been used in heraldry for centuries, and even appear on the flag of the United Nations. The types of plants in socialist heraldry are different from those in "normal" heraldry only because they are domesticated plants, and usually food plants (like grain). In this way, by using plants grown by the average farmer, socialist heraldry attempts to portray itself as a sort of "people's heraldry", as opposed to the "aristocratic" heraldry that uses laurels or oak leaves. -- Priadn (talk) 05:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Emblem of Italy?[edit]

It has become a point of contention whether or not the emblem of Italy belongs in the gallery of this article. That is, whether or not it is an example of Socialist heraldry. I would argue that it is. From the list of typical features in Socialist heraldry we can easily pick out several.

  • Ears or ribbons of grain or other domesticated plants

Yes, more specifically olive and oak.

  • Single or multiple Gears

There is a single gear.

  • Interwoven ribbons in national and/or red colors, sometimes imprinted with esteemed dates, slogans and the like

There is a red interwoven ribbon with the name of the country.

  • Red and gold (yellow) five-pointed stars
  • National symbols or places of national importance

It is not red and gold, but we have a white and red five-pointed star, the Stellone d'Italia, which is a symbol of Italy.

Conversely, we can ask if there is anything in the emblem that is at odds with including it in this article. I don't see anything.

The question of whether or not Italy has been a Communist or Socialist doesn't seem to be relevant, as we can as a parallel find many examples of republics with regal elements to their coats of arms. This is after all an article about heraldry, not about type of government. -- Nidator T / C 19:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Olive and oak don't quite fit the pattern: their symbolism is (usually) less literal than that of the socialist ears of grain. (The olive branch stands for peace, of course, and oak for ... I dunno, strength?) —Tamfang (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The use of other plants than grain is not unusual is Socialist heraldry though. The emblem of the Lithuanian SSR includes oak. The emblems of the Estonian and Karelo-Finnish SSRs also include tree branches. There are also a lot of other plants in the emblems of other Communist entities; cotton, grapes, rice, flowers (clover, flax), maize, pears, etc. I don't think an olive branch stands out in this company, and oak I have given an example of. -- Nidator T / C 21:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention that the opening paragraph for this article explicitely states that this article is intended for communist states in the design of the national emblems and not socialist-inspired coat of arms in general. --Philly boy92 (talk) 20:32, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you are being entirely honest in your paraphrasing. What it actually says is that "Socialist heraldry refers to the style used by communist countries in the design of their emblems." So, it is an article about a emblem style, a style used by communist countries. I don't see where it states "explicitely" that it was exclusively used by communist countries, or, for that matter, that all communist countries used it. If we have an example of this emblem style, then there is no reason not to include it in the gallery. -- Nidator T / C 21:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If Italy is included simply because it fulfills some of the criteria set in the article (star and gear), then we should also include: Algeria (landscape), Austria (Hammer and sickle [separate]), Azerbaijan (star, grain, other domesticated plants), Bangladesh (stars, grain), Brazil (star, other domestic plants, ribbon) and the list goes on. We can even include the Great Seal of the United States if we're a bit flexible (which we obviously are if we include Italy in the gallery), it has a ribbon, a plant and lots of five-pointed stars... --Philly boy92 (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to clear up a misunderstanding before preceding with the discussion. The article says that "Socialist heraldry typically makes use of the following symbols". Not that you have to include them all to count. That would be absurd, and exclude most of the emblems in the gallery.
I don't wish to include Italy because it fulfils some of them., but because it fulfils several of them. In fact, you would have to stretch an argument to say that it included anything that isn't on the list. You mention just the star and the gear. I on the other hand mentioned the gear, the interwoven red ribbon, the supporters of plant ears (which I have covered in one of the posts above), and the 'five-pointed star which happens to be a national symbol of Italy. That is 4 solid hits, and one decent one. The case for inclusion is strong. --- Nidator T / C 21:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Should the brazilian coat of arms really be included? It was created under a military coup d'état that has nothing to do with Socialism at all. In fact it calls back to the previous monarch regime and the power of the economic elites. 189.123.222.220 (talk) 00:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to remind people that there is no checklist for what is or isn't socialist heraldry, so it is only a distraction to argue about what is or isn't included in the emblem. I would like to also note that "socialist heraldry" is a common term and not meant to be specifically limited to socialist states, as is evident by the communist states included. It is also referred to as "communist heraldry", though less frequently given the decline of communism. The term applies to the style and reason of the emblem, not the political philosophy of the government that adopts it. I would say, then, that the Italian emblem is in the socialist style, even though not a socialist state.
Η936631 (talk) 09:51, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The emblem of Italy immediately came to my mind, after reading the characteristics of socialist heraldry. I agree with Nidator's arguments on this. Most of the current socialist heraldry emblems are not used by socialist states (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Belarus, Macedonia, Angola, Mozambique, Nepal). Apart from this the lead currently reads: "Socialist heraldry, also called communist heraldry, consists of emblems in a style typically adopted by communist states and filled with communist symbolism.". Typically not exclusively. IMHO Italy's emblem belongs in the current emblems section. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) a penny for your thoughts? 18:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Hansi667: Wikipedia does not allow WP:original research or WP:synthesis of sources. We are not allowed to make conclusions about what is socialist heraldry, and what is not. If we want to include the amblem of Italy here, we need a WP:reliable source that calls it a socialist emblem. Making any conclusions without citing reliable sources would be an original research, which is not allowed. I removed the emblem of Italy from the article. Feel free to put it back if you find a reliable source to prove that it is a socialist emblem. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Snowsuit Wearer: I reverted your addition of the Emblem of Italy to the article. Do you have any reliable source to prove that the Emblem of Italy is a socialist emblem? Vanjagenije (talk) 11:43, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What did you do that for? Don't do it again. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 11:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Snowsuit Wearer: Yes, I will do it again. Wikipedia's policies do not allow us to add unsourced material to the articles (see: WP:V, "...everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable"). Do you have any reliable source to verify that the Emblem of Italy is a socialist emblem? Don't forget that the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. If you don't provided sources to demonstrate the verifiability, then the emblem has to be removed. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am adding a source right now, so don't. Just don't. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 13:50, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the symbol is not a socialist emblem just because it follows the style of so called "socialist heraldry". The Italian emblem is not a political emblem but just a state emblem. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 14:15, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

South Yemen?[edit]

Although it does not have the wreath thing like many other Communist-Socialist countries on it's emblem, it does have it's flag on the emblem, which features the socialist Red Star.

Is it worth including?71.58.198.190 (talk) 02:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But it was a Marxist-Leninist country!

What, do you think the Red Star means Macy's or Heineken?71.58.198.190 (talk) 04:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's still not an example of the style described in the article. —Tamfang (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

choice of dates[edit]

Bellow are two galleries of historical and current national emblems. The years given are for the emblems, not for the countries, except for the component republics of the USSR.

Is this because it's uncertain when each SSR adopted its emblem? Or did some of them continue to use the same emblem after 1991? (If the latter, why cut it off at 1991?) —Tamfang (talk) 20:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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1975-88 coat of arms of Malta?[edit]

Could the 1975 republican coat of arms of Malta be considered as socialist heraldry? From the list of typical features in Socialist heraldry there are the following:

  • Interwoven ribbons in national and/or red colors, sometimes imprinted with esteemed dates, slogans and the like (There isn't a ribbon, but the words REPUBBLIKA TA' MALTA (Republic of Malta) are imprinted under the emblem.)
  • The rising sun
  • Landscapes
  • National symbols or places of national importance

This is the only Maltese coat of arms which did not feature a heraldic representation of the flag of Malta, and it was introduced during Mintoff's Labour government. The coat of arms was removed soon after the Nationalists won the 1987 election.

Do we have any source that describes that coat of arms as socialist? Without a source, it would be an original research which is forbidden in Wikipedia. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This looks more like a coloured-in seal to me, the only likeness with "socialist heraldry" is the round form and perhaps the landscape, but the round form is typical for seals too. The sun is not rising. Coloured-in seals are common as state and city symbols in the USA for instance. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 14:21, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition[edit]

This article is overwhelmed with images of socialist emblems. This is not a gallery, this is an article about socialist heraldry, and it is no rally useful to have images of every single socialist emblem ever used. I think we should make an inclusion criteria for images of emblems in this article. I propose this inclusion criteria:

We should only add to this article images of emblems of internationally recognized states that existed for more than few years. If the state used several similar emblems during its existence, they should not all be added, but only the one that was used for the longest period.

According to this proposition, we don't need to add emblems of unrecognized states like Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic and Luhansk People's Republic. We also do not need three emblems of Socialist Bulgaria ([1][2][3]) because they are very similar, practically the same. I am going to remove some emblems according to this proposition. If someone has objections, or if someone has better proposition, please discuss it here. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:36, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We could also remove some emblems which are not really "pure" examples of socialist heraldry, in that they have a shield, which is the most typical example of real heraldry which socialist heraldry tried to divert from. I think about the emblems of Czechoslovakia and of Hungary post-1956. OTOH, in the text, there could be some reference to such symbols of mixed tradition. Ove Raul (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ove Raul: I tottaly agree with your removal of certain emblems. This is an article, not a gallery. Symbols of mixed tradition should be mentioned in the text, but there is no need to put images, especially since there are separate articles about every one of them. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think, emblems of all Soviet republics should be there.--Reciprocist (talk) 12:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Reciprocist: Wouldn't it be against WP:NOTGALLERY? Vanjagenije (talk) 15:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Yopie: You (re-)added coats of Cuba and Czechoslovakia [4] with an edit summary "Both of Poland are not socialistic CoA's". What do Poland have to so with Cuba and Czechoslovakia? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. I think there is no reason not to include unrecognised states, for example (or other organisations, for that matter). These are good examples of socialist heraldry and do no harm to the article. 83.226.235.200 (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that including unrecognised states and variations of the same emblems improves the article; removing them gives us readers interested in socialist heraldry much less of a good view on what emblems are used and not. A few emblems more does not hurt anything; they rather contribute to the richness of the article and I see no reason at all to remove them (even those that have some similarities). Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 20:32, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is an article, not a picture gallery. Images of socialist emblems are only here to illustrate the point. Therefore, there is no need to list every social emblem ever used. We only need few examples to illustrate the article. Vanjagenije (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know that you feel that way. I, on the other hand, cannot see that the article becomes any less of an article with more emblems; on the other hand, with fewer of them, I think it certainly does become less of an article. Had the article consisted only of emblems, I would have understood what you mean, but this is an article rich in text. The few emblems you wanted removed are so few that I see no reason at all to remove them. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 18:25, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Socialist =/= Communist[edit]

Please do correct me if I am wrong, but isn't every single one of these crests from a communist government? If so, shouldn't it be considered "Communist Heraldry" specifically? Socialism is a very wide umbrella, and lumping socialism and communism together is a bit disingenuous. I don't remember ever seeing this motif ever being used by anything other than statist communism, starting with the Stalinist influenced Soviet Union right before Lenin's death. JanderVK (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@JanderVK: I don't remember Italy ever was a communist country. Vanjagenije (talk) 18:49, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Italian crest has nothing to do with the other designs though. In fact, it shouldn't even be on here. It's from the Ancient Roman olive & oak laurel wreaths. The symbols have wholly different meanings albeit looking very vaguely similar. JanderVK (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Socialist heraldry is a more useful term because the word 'socialist' is less contentious than the word 'communist'. If you call it communist you'll stir up a massive argument about what is and what isn't 'true' communism. (Is China communist, or is it state socialist? It's certainly run by a communist party, but does that count? etc.) Much better to call it socialist heraldry and include all state emblems that were inspired by the original Leninist design.--88.131.71.181 (talk) 13:50, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

UN issue for Byelorussia and Ukraine[edit]

Since this article focuses on sovereign states, could the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic count because the two republics were just separate members of the United Nations apart from the Soviet Union unless were talking a debate on the "Soviet Union and the United Nations" article here. 108.162.176.163 (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Emblem of PRC is typical?[edit]

I think it is the most non-typical. It is in the same style as Vietnamese though.--Reciprocist (talk) 12:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Reciprocist Benin and Kampuchea had also the same style as Vietnamese Braganza (talk) 16:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What about kingdom of Afghanistan?[edit]

This one:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/a/af)1928s.gif

--Reciprocist (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Reciprocist: You have any reliable source that refers to it as an example of socialist heraldry? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:05, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanjagenije: Sources say it was influenced by the USSR.--Reciprocist (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea[edit]

It's a bit of a quibble, but North Korea has renounced Marxism-Leninism in favour of their derivative militaristic-socialist ideology Juche. I have relocated the NK emblem to the 'non-Marxist-Leninist' section to reflect this. Fouriels (talk) 12:10, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with that move.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:12, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
after template:Marxism–Leninism sidebar are Titoism and Jurche Variants of Marxism-Leninism; It should already be consistent with the classification. Braganza (talk) 16:46, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Emblem of Guinea-Bissau actual socialist heraldry?[edit]

I don't see how the emblem of Guinea-Bissau counts as an example of socialist heraldry. It fullfills at most three of the 10 characteristics listed in the article: 

1. It has a five-pointed star on it. The star is a common motif in all sorts of heraldry and the black five-pointed star is a pan-african symbol, not a socialist one.

2. It has a wreath-like arrangement of domesticated plants (olive branches). Olive branches are also common in all forms of heraldry where they represent peace, not plenty. This is exemplified by the fact that there are no olives on the branches, meaning that the olive branches are not seen as a source of food, but rather as a symbol.

3. It has a ribbon with the national motto. This is also a very common motif on heraldry used as a way to convey a motto or other important words.

Here's the kicker though: all of these things can be found on the Great Seal of the United States. The five pointed star, the olive branch, and the ribbon. No one would claim that the US seal is an example of socialist heraldry, so why is the emblem of Guinea-Bussau considered as such?--88.131.71.181 (talk) 13:23, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well the emblem of Guinea-Bissau like the former emblem of Cape Verde are made to emulate the style of other socialist emblems and are based on the symbols of their socialist founding parties! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 13:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sub-territorial entities[edit]

Somebody recently added a section for socialist heraldry of territorial entities within nations and added the CoA of Gagauzia in Moldova, are we fine with having such a section? If so i have a few CoA's to add! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 13:23, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Emblem of Afghanistan[edit]

The current emblem of Afghanistan is strongly inspired in socialist heraldry, even tho the current ideology of the regime isn't socialist. The emblem incorporates plenty of characteristics of the typical socialist emblem, such as:

  • Wreaths of grain or other domesticated plants encircling the emblem

It incorporates wreaths of grain.

  • Interwoven ribbons in national colors

It incorporates those wreaths surrounded by white ribbons, which is currently the national color of Afghanistan.

  • The rising sun

It incorporates a sun upon the Quran.

  • Modern industrial accessories such as gears and electricity pylons

It incorporates a gear on the bottom of the emblem.

  • Books, representing the intelligentsia, and more generally, science and culture

The Quran is on top.

  • Other tools or accessories, sometimes weapons.

The two sabers below the gear.

I don't know why did it got removed, when it ′′′is′′′ an actual socialist emblem. Of course the Taliban is not socialist, but here we are not to discuss if the government is socialistic or not. Countries like Uzbekistan, Angola or North Macedonia are not socialist anymore, yet their emblems get featured. Why would Afghanistan not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejandro Basombrio (talk • contribs) 16:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Emblem of Taliban Afghanistan?[edit]

Why is it here? WikiAfterWiki (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed But I Believe It Was Added Because It Was Once Communist Or Socialist One Party State,Both Taliban and Islamic Republic Of Afghanistan Do Contain Some Socialist Heraldy This Definition May Means We May Have To Include Rwanda Both Have Socialist Heraldy Somewhat Referenced But Rwanda Was Never Communist Seychelles Was once one party Socialist from 1977-1995
So the Taliban is not Socialist but the country itself was communist at one point What A Coincidence? 119.95.12.85 (talk) 22:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm kinda torn on it, the wreath first appears on 1901 emblem but the ribbons first appear on the socialist 1928 coat of arms. The Taliban's also uses the same pulpit as the communist one Braganza (talk) 22:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Madagascar[edit]

Their seals look quite socialist. Their first president (Philibert Tsiranana) was a social democrat so there is a potential connection

Braganza (talk) 22:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vif12vf: do you know more Braganza (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know much about the development of these seals, though as you say, Tsiranana was a social democrat, and his party is also seen as democratic socialist, his party was also at some point a part of the French Section of the Workers' International (SFIO), and remains a member of the socialist international. As for the post-socialist third republic, it should be noted that Didier Ratsiraka served as its first president in the period 1992–1993, and again 1997–2002, with Ratsiraka being the leader of the socialist Democratic Republic. The first prime minister in this period, Guy Razanamasy, came from Ratsirakas party. The fact that the seal was adopted shortly after the end of the socialist period might also be significant. I would also argue that the current seal should be considered as well, since it is only a modified version of its predecessor. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 22:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Parties[edit]

Should we add some parties which incorporated heraldic elements in their logos?

Which i would add
Might add?
Others (minor or dubious cases)

Braganza (talk) 14:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vif12vf: you appear to be interrested in that Braganza (talk) 21:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had the idea a couple of days ago when adding some other emblems, but didn't act on it then. I have added a section for it now, though it is a work in progress. I think we should be somewhat "conservative" in our selection of emblems, so as to not overinflate the section though. I think all of the above fit except that of Democratic Action, which seems a bit vague, which I would also say about the emblem of Eritrea. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vif12vf: i was mainly collecting candidates and i added a few more candidates
imo we should add TPLF, SRSP and KSČ (for their roles as ruling parties; maybe PAI too since they were part of the 3 sole legal parties), PSI as a non-communist representation which uses clearly socialist imaginary and either PKI or CPCh
you can remove Eritrea if you think so (i added them because of their ruling party), West Sahara should remain though since they used to have a hammer in the coat of arms Braganza (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this looks good, in fact I have already added some of them. I also added a section for state symbols that are not national emblems. I am done editing for now though, and need to log off for the night, so feel free to add the rest if you'd like. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 00:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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