Talk:Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum

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Untitled[edit]

Note: There is a temptation to refer to this as "the New York Guggenheim". However, see the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation; there are at least two other entities that could be called "the New York Guggenheim" (the SoHo and waterfront museums), although neither is in operation at this time. In text, I suggest we prefer using "the Solomon R. Guggenheim" wherever possible. Thanks. --k.lee

I've replaced the external-view photo with a larger one. As the old one was nice (and wasn't so cluttered with cars and street furniture) I've not deleted it, but left it linked from the image page of the new one. I've also added a section on how difficult it is to hang art in the Guggenheim, and (admirably, IMHO) resisted the temptation to call the Guggenheim the worst museum on earth, with all the style and character of a public toilet in Romford and suitable only for the same purpose. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:18, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)


It'd be nice to also have a bit of positive views/explanations to balance the immense criticism present in the article. --Menchi 21:53, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wright's original design[edit]

From Wright' Wikipedia page:

Its unique central geometry was meant to allow visitors to experience Guggenheim's collection of non-objective geometric paintings with ease by taking an elevator to the top level and then viewing artworks by walking down the slowly-descending central spiral ramp. Unfortunately, when the museum was completed, a number of important details of Wright's design were ignored, including his desire for the interior to be painted off white. Furthermore, the Museum currently designs exhibits to be viewed by walking up the curved walkway, rather than walking down from the top level.

From the museum's page:

He originally wanted to design a square building, the baroness preferred a round shape though. He also wanted it to be painted in bright red, she wanted it to be in white.

So, did he want it red or white inside? red or white outside? Square or round? Both versions should be consistent.

like a coffin[edit]

I recall the PBS series on Wright quoting the architect as saying that the Guggenheim was going to make the Met look "like a coffin." Can't find the quote on the net. Can anyone provide a source and the full quotation? I think it would be a great addition to the article. Bgruber 04:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

the show was on last night here, here's the full quote:

Wait 'til you see the blueprints for the Guggenheim. it's going to stand almost directly across from the Metropolitan Museum; it's going to make the Metropolitan look like a protestant barn.

here's an online article that contains the quote. Here's a really good one from Time magazine in 1959. I'll try to work it into the article when i get a chance. If someone else would like to do it first, go ahead. Bgruber 19:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Negativity?[edit]

This article centers on criticisms of the shape of the museum. I think we deserve to see the positive or at least the original purposes of the design.

What artists have been featured here? What does the museum itself (not its architecture) attempt to accomplish?

Are there pop culture references to be displayed? (I think of the recent USPS Stamp featuring architectural works.) --Spesek 16:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

To anonymous user who added information about artificial light[edit]

I think your contribution is quite good, but it would be great to have a citation. Normally I would have left the article alone and left a message on your talk page, but since you're anonymous I decided to revert and leave you a message here. I hope you don't take offense. Bgruber 05:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hang "proud"??[edit]

The line "meaning that canvasses must be mounted proud of the wall's surface" doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

I can interpret "proud" to mean standing off of the wall (being that it's a curved surface) but I'm not sure if it's clear enough.

The wiktionary entry for proud/pride doesn't seem to include this usage of the word. Is there a better way to say this? Mondochrome 16:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

How is the name pronounced in English?[edit]

goo-gen-hym —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.10.63 (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

History/criticism[edit]

Although the rotunda is generously lit by a large skylight, the niches are heavily shadowed by the walkway itself, leaving the art to be lit largely by artificial light.

I beleive the building was originally lit with skylights along the outside of the spiral, but they were replaced with artifical light to allow the museum to control the level of UV light reaching the artwork. This fact in the article is unsourced. Can anyone confirm/deny this? j.reed (talk) 03:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Main image[edit]

It's located in New York, the major US city; it's one of the major museums. How is it that the headline image is so poor? I'm thinking of File:Guggenheim museum exterior.jpg, which (a) is tilted (b) is 800 pixels wide (c) has a taxi, some streetlights, the back of a car, a crane, and some pedestrians in the way (d) is underexposed, and has a blown-out sky. I understand there are only so many places to stand, but how is it that a major, major museum in the heart of New York has such a poor image? Are there no New York Wikipedia editors with cameras? 151.55.138.144 (talk) 20:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Classic art[edit]

The article should mention that the museum has one floor dedicated to classics. And that it prohibits photos everywhere, including in the floor filled with public domain works. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:Reliable source? -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

News articles about the museum[edit]

See this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Need better lead image. I'll try to get one. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Article expansion[edit]

I have been working on expanding the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation article, and I have brought some of the new material here from that article. I plan to import more of it over the next weeks to provide a continuous history. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

New material under the heading "Critics"[edit]

This rather confusing material quoted below was thrown into the article with a citation that cannot be easily verified. 1)Is it correct? 2) What exactly does it mean? 3) Is it important enough to add to the article? Where in the article does it belong? Surely this heading is not helpful:

German born Hans Haacke exibition was censored by Guggenhein Museum in 1971. The exhibition included critics of the art museums connections including questionable real estate deals. [ref]Ulla Karttunen Aktivistinen taide, aikamme rappiotaide ? Magazin Taide nr 4 2008 page 42 (in Finnish): ”Saksalaissyntyinen Hans Haacke kuuluu viime vuosikymmenten merkittävimpiin taiteilijoihin, mutta hänen näyttelynsä Guggenheimmuseossa joutui ennakkosensuurin kohteeksi, niin kuin jotkut myöhemminkin. Haacken teoksissa on esitetty tieto taidemuseoiden taustayhteyksistä, muun muassa kyseenalaisista kiinteistökaupoista. Haacken teoksissa on arvioitu ”täysin vailla taiteellista laatua” oleviksi, ”koko taiteen käsitettä vastaan” hyökkääviksi. (toisin kuin esim Turkmenistanin pyhää kirjaa -- Ruhnama, ihmisoikeuksien loukkauksen välikappaletta, kiitetään ”taiteellisesta laadusta” ja ylistetään ”mestariteokseksi”.[/ref]

-- Ssilvers (talk) 13:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Makes no sense to me. Someone has used Google translate and has pasted the result verbatim - delete it. Jack1956 (talk) 17:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I concur with Jack. There's no harm in keeping the stuff on this talk page, whither Ssilvers has moved it, but it certainly doesn't belong in the article. It's not only inadequately referenced but, I fear, not notable enough for inclusion on the main page. Let it sit here, though, for anyone who may be interested, I'd say. Tim riley (talk) 22:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

"The Collection" and "Library and Archives" sections[edit]

An editor wishes to add the following:

The Collection

The Guggenheim Collection is comprised of several very different, private collections. Central foundations are:

This section is redundant, as these collections are already discussed, with appropriate references, elsewhere in the article. Where each collection is discussed above, appropriate context and citations are give. In addition, this proposed new section is sourced only to the Guggenheim's own website, and in any event, the citation needs to have more information per WP:CITE. It may be that some of this information should be added to the penultimate sentence of the LEAD section of the article.

The editor also wishes to add the following:

Library and Archives

The Guggenheim Museum Library and Archives includes books and documents that help inform curator's understanding of contemporary artists and prepare for future exhibitions. The library and archives also house the institutional records of the Guggenheim museum, and can be accessed by making a private appointment. The Guggenheim library and archives are located in the Hudson Square area of Lower Manhattan.

Again, this proposed new information is referenced only to the museum's website. I am not sure whether this material is of significance, because no third-party references are offered. If it is of significance, there must be references to it in third-party WP:Reliable sources. This museum gets lots of press, so I am sure that if there is anything of interest in this paragraph, it has been reported on in the media or in third-party materials about the museum. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Information should not be added that is not properly referenced. As stated above, if this material really is significant there should be reliable sources available either online or offline to substantiate the addition. Jack1956 (talk) 19:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


Additions

The Collection The Guggenheim Collection is comprised of several very different, private collections. Central foundations are:

* Solomon R. Guggenheim's collection of nonobjective painting.
* Peggy Guggenheim's collection of Abstract and Surrealist painting and sculpture.
* Justin Thannhauser's array of Impressionist, Post-Impressionist, and early modern works.
* Count Giuseppe Panza di Biumo's holdings of European and American Minimalist, Environmental Art, and Conceptual Art.
* Major gifts have also been contributed by the Robert Mapplethorpe Foundation and the Bohen Foundation.[1]
Sure, these sections are discussed in other parts of the article, but the Collection is a separate part of the institution, and I think its description currently gets lost in the 'early years' section and 'the building' section- I know I was confused by by Justin Thannhauser's collection was described in the building section- this does not make organizational sense. Moreover, Peggy Guggenheim's collection is currently not mentioned in the article, neither are Count Giuseppe Panza di Biumo's holdings, nor Robert Mapplethorpe's.
Citations I can provide:
Peggy Guggenheim's collection is described in the article about that collection: Peggy Guggenheim Collection. It is also discussed in the article on the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation. Now, I am beginning to feel that you are confusing the articles on the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation, where all the collections are described, and the article on the NY museum, which does not house the Peggy Guggenheim collection at all. The article on the NY museum should only discuss that museum. For more general information about the Guggenheim museums, see the Foundation's article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The editor also wishes to add the following:

Library and Archives

The Guggenheim Museum Library and Archives includes books and documents that help inform curator's understanding of contemporary artists and prepare for future exhibitions. The library and archives also house the institutional records of the Guggenheim museum, and can be accessed by making a private appointment. The Guggenheim library and archives are located in the Hudson Square area of Lower Manhattan.

  • Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum Library and Archives Catalog
Again, the Library and Archives are discreet institutions which have sepearate projects, and staff than the museum on the Upper East Side, and they have received press for their projects. (see below)

:Citations I can provide:

OR drohowa (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

These citations show that some archives are online. They don't explain what part they play in the New York museum, which is what this article is about. Note that there are about a dozen articles releated to the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

SSilvers, thanks for the link. I have read that article, and I think it's section on the collection is good, but I would still like to see the collection as an independent subsection from the institution. If you look at other museums such as the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art or most of the more complete museum articles, there is a separate section for 'collection' and 'collection highlights' that way, as people begin writing more about works in the collection, those works can be listed on the page. See also the Morgan Library & Museum.

The library and archives, also I believe should be described because they are departments within the New York institution that have particular histories of their own. I think this would be easier for anyone studying the history of the institution. OR drohowa (talk) 20:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The "collections" section is redundant in part, and inappropriate in part – as it includes some items that are discussed at length in the article, and some items that are not appropriate for the NY Museum's article at all, such as the Peggy Guggenheim Collection. That is discussed in its own article and in the Solomon R. Guggenheim Foundation article. OR's thoughts about improving the organisation of the article are fair enough, but this does not, I think, meet the case. Perhaps we can discuss that issue under a separate heading. Meanwhile, the citations given by OR here should be considered in the context of the citations already given in the article – some of these references, perhaps, can profitably be added where the collections are currently discussed in the article, and if they contain any important information about the collections that is not already discussed, that information should be added and properly cited. That would require someone to read those sources carefully and compare them to the current text. Otherwise, I agree with Ssilvers that a brief mention of the most important collections could well be added to the penultimate sentence of the lead section of the article. The library and archives paragraph does not, on the face of it, appear to contain any important information. It goes without saying that the museum has an archive for its records, and that the curators would use such materials to prepare for future exhibitions. This article doesn't really need to discuss those activities of the curators that are the normal business of museum curators. If it is of interest, it would need to explain much more clearly the importance of these materials to the NY Museum and/or the Foundation. Furthermore, the paragraph does not give the sources in-line, so that readers can see what statements are derived from which sources. The sources given, in any case, mostly seem merely to suggest that the archive exists, not what its importance, function and relationship with the museum/foundation are. As Jack1956 observes above, any material added should be cited (in-line) to reliable third-party sources to substantiate the additions. – Tim riley (talk) 08:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Guggenheim and GLAM-Wiki[edit]

Hi, continuing this discussion again. I am a Wikipedian-in-Residence and GLAM-Wiki organizer, and have been discussing with Guggenheim staff editing practices, and their plans to incorporate Wikipedia editing into some of the work of the museums staff and the archival/library staff, and possibly other departments. I believe that they are interested in writing articles on archival collections or items within the library and archives, and possibly also adding pages on exhibitions etc. I'm letting you know this because it is likely that they are going to be making changes to this page, and if you are administering the page in some way, you will want to know that they are involved in the Wikipedia:GLAM project, and will be aided by Wikipedians, including myself. I know editing the institutional page is not the focus of GLAM projects, but they may make changes to this page in order to direct visitors to the other articles they add, for example, if a lot of articles are added about items within the archive, I think that that warrants a discreet section called Archives should be added. OR drohowa (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Sounds great. Once there are related, well-referenced articles, it will be easy to add well-referenced summaries of key information to this article. Before you help the museum staffs, however it is important for you to learn how to use citations in Wikipedia. Every citation should give the following information, to the extent available: Author's name, title of article (and title of work in which it appears if it is part of a larger work), date of publication, publisher name, url, page number and accessdate. See WP:CITE, and more generally WP:RS, especially the part about self-published sources (WP:SPS). You should also review Wikipedia's manual of style: WP:MOS. And since you will be working with institutions that have a commercial interest in promoting themselves on Wikipedia, you need to understand our guideline on conflicts of interest: WP:COI. Most importantly, please make sure that copyrighted text is not copied into Wikipedia, except for directly quoted material used sparingly, per WP:QUOTE. See WP:COPYVIO. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Critics: Real estate deals[edit]

Ssilvers please explain yor removal [1]. I would like to have more data about the questionable real estate deals of Guggenheim in the article. This article also point out that Guggenheim has sensored art. Please tell more of this in the article.

German born Hans Haacke exibition was censored by Guggenhein Museum in 1971. The exhibition included critics of the art museums connections including questionable real estate deals.(ref. Ulla Karttunen Aktivistinen taide, aikamme rappiotaide? Magazin Taide nr 4 2008 page 42 (in Finnish): ”Saksalaissyntyinen Hans Haacke kuuluu viime vuosikymmenten merkittävimpiin taiteilijoihin, mutta hänen näyttelynsä Guggenheimmuseossa joutui ennakkosensuurin kohteeksi, niin kuin jotkut myöhemminkin. Haacken teoksissa on esitetty tieto taidemuseoiden taustayhteyksistä, muun muassa kyseenalaisista kiinteistökaupoista. Haacken teoksissa on arvioitu ”täysin vailla taiteellista laatua” oleviksi, ”koko taiteen käsitettä vastaan” hyökkääviksi. Toisin esim Turkmenistanin pyhää kirjaa -- Ruhnama, ihmisoikeuksien loukkauksen välikappaletta, kiitetään ”taiteellisesta laadusta” ja ylistetään ”mestariteokseksi”.

Watti Renew (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.guggenheim.org/new-york/collections/about-the-collection