Talk:Sonic & Knuckles

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Sonic Timeline[edit]

As it may be seen at the begging of "Sonic III", it is a direct sequence of "Sonic II": just after returning from the Death Egg on the plane piloted by Tails, Sonic jumps out after Knuckles.

"Sonic & Knuckles", on the other hand, would be placed between "Sonic I" and "Sonic II". Do you agree with it? Tonyjeff 20:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The whole point of Sonic & Knuckles is that it takes place the INSTANT after Sonic 3. The title screen even depicts the Death Egg falling from near-orbit, thanks to Sonic at the end of the Launch Base Zone, as shown even more clearly if you play "Sonic 3 & Knuckles". And if Sonic & Knuckles takes place before Sonic 2, why isn't Knuckles in the plot of Sonic 2? The Genesis/Mega Drive Sonic games all seem to take place in the order they were released, if you ask me. The only truly perplexing continuity issue in the entire franchise is Sonic CD, in my honest opinion, though even that would seem to take place between the first two games when you consider Sonic 3 most definitely happens right after Sonic 2.
The start of Sonic 3 doesn't begin with Sonic jumping out after Knuckles. According to the instruction manual, Sonic and Tails just happened upon the Floating Island/Angel Island. Knuckles, brainwashed by Dr Robotnik, ambushed Sonic who still had the 7 Chaos Emeralds from the end of Sonic 2.


I'm sure we'll all be willing to take your idea on board if you can back it up well enough. Is there anything else you feel suggests Sonic & Knuckles goes between the first two games? --L T Dangerous 15:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


I really don´t know exactly, as I think it would be much more a gossip I heard off from some VG magazine by the time. All that I remember is that Knuckles wouldn´t appear during the "normal" "Sonic II" because he would be occupied with his own business; however, since you can play "Sonic" II WITH Knucles, it would suggest that he already exists by the time. But anyway, I feel that you are plenty right, as S&K wouldn´t fit that well between the first two games... Do you think it is possible to trace a Chronological line with all the games of Sonic for the 4 and 8 bits generations? Just another day I came through two games with Tails released for Sega Master System (Mark 3). You could state where each game fits and the basic reasons for that (as you have just done). There´s also "Knucles Chaotix" released for Sega32X which could reveal something relevant for the main canon. 201.6.186.233 10:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sonic 3 is a direct seuqel to Sonic 2. After Sonic took down Mecha-Robotnik, the Death Egg ended up falling into the Floating Island, causing it to fall into the ocean below. If you take a close look at the opening to Sonic 3, Sonic and Tails never go up at all until after they get to the island. During Launch Base, the Death Egg rises from the island...and slams back into it again. Sonic 3 isn't a "right after" sequel like S&K was but it does link back to Sonic 2. I'll quote the exact part of the manual when I get home. 209.115.232.94 19:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

About Sonic CD this cannot take place before Sonic 2 and I only have one pice of evedence. The Robotic Sonic. I mean look we have in Sonic 2 a pretty basic and chunky robot wich is nothing like the blue blur. and now look at S3&K another Sonic robot is introduced. Another chunky robot though this one is fast he still is not a very good copy. Now look at Sonic CD we have another Sonic robot Metal Sonic this is the sonic robot we see most in the series and it is (in my oppionion) the most advanced by far it (he?) is fast it is small it is sexy. So if so then it would go like this. (I am not including the handheld consoles for now). Crap Sonic robot>>>>>cool sonic robot>>>crap Sonic robot.

So in conclusion I say that Sonic CD must come after Sonic 2/3/&K. -unregistred user Koryan

But Sonic CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was developed by other dev teams, at the same time; Sonic 2 was developed in USA while Sonic CD was developed in Japan. So the Sonic 2 dev team was not aware of Metal Sonic and the Sonic CD dev team was not aware of Silver Sonic. Also, Tails does only appear as an hidden picture, triggered by an cheat code. So Sonic CD must go after Sonic 1 but before Sonic 2 GG. End of (off topic) discussion. NeoDoubleGames 17:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You should really look at the magazine entitled Sonic's First. It clearly shows that you don't see Knuckles untill Sonic takes a vacation on Angle Island. End of story, bye bye, see you later! Saprissy (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

That's in the continuity of the comic, not the games. Ray and jub (talk) 17:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Deadline Trouble[edit]

The text below was originally on the main page, but really needs a grammatical cleanup and some verification of the data. I've taken the liberty of removing the text and placing it here until that can be accomplished.

Sonic 3, and Sonic & Knuckles are the same exact game, but Sonic 3 had to be released before they could finish it at sonic team, proof in this is the fact that the Flying Battery zone's title card, music, and bosses, were left in the game, they will also load up if you force the level, also the game concept art of the robots from Flying Battery Zone appeared in the Sonic 3 manual. They split the game and released sonic 3 because of the deadline, but in addition to this, they were able to make a knuckles in sonic 2 patch for sonic 2.

--Technogeek 05:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It's true. Sonic 3 & Knuckles was originally devised as one game, but time restraints eventually caused Sega to split it in two halves. As mentioned above, music from Sonic & Knuckles stuck in Sonic 3, as well as a few levels. If you enter the level select, you can even see some of Sonic & Knuckles' levels. Apparently the original order was a bit different as well. I agree it has to be rewritten though. --Steerpike 10:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

3 Player[edit]

I was told by someone that you could get three player when you locked in Sonic and Knuckles with Sonic 3. However it was only shown if you had the 4 player addon thing. I was wondering if someone can varify weather this is true. If it is I belive the page should be updated as needed. - Jedaz 12:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

False rumor. Jedi6 22:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Intro paragraph trimmed[edit]

This is pretty minor, but since I removed content I feel I should explain. This doesn't make much sense to me:

In fact, the minboss music is most likely a remix of Sonic 1's Marble Zone music.

A sentence that begins with "In fact" should not then immediately say "most likely," as that indicates that it is not a fact, but merely an opinion. I removed (well, commented out) that sentence, but if someone can verify that the music is a remix, please rewrite and put it back.

Rassilon 15:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fake to me[edit]

The members of [the Simon Wai's Sonic 2 Beta Page forums] have interviewed many of the creators of the games and such a statement has never come up. While there are many that we still have yet to contact, the fact that none of them have mentioned this fact coupled with the fact that several communities based on the games have yet to notice this remixing, I think it's safe to say that the remix idea is too much of a stretch. If anyone can provide incontrovertible proof to the contrary, of course, I'll eat my words.

SoNick Belmont 02:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

clean-up[edit]

In accordance with the article on Sonic 3 I've drastically cut down both the level and trivia sections. The level section is just meant to be a short description of each zone and nothing more (although in all fairness, I have to admit that it was probably me who once wrote those lengthy zone descriptions :) ). I did retain the differences between Sonic and Knuckles. The trivia section was getting way too long and got littered with useless info. I took the liberty of cutting out the more arcane trivia "bits". --Steerpike 13:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section the Death Egg in regards to Knuckles's route. If you want to alter the text so it's shorter feel free to do so since it dose extend the Zone's description abit.

"BETA Route: Within Death Egg there is an alternate route with obsitcles designed for Knuckles to pass through. It is accessible via Debug mode and going down and then right. The route joins with the default route prior to the boss fight, where there is a fall that instantly kills whoever falls down. Along here is the one way door that Knuckles would use to enter Sonics route."Dark-Chaos 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see this info as being relevant actually. --Steerpike 20:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Super Emeralds[edit]

In the article, it says that if the Super Emeralds are attempted but not collected, that the game reverts to the bad ending. This is not true.

It IS true. NeoDoubleGames 17:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Questionable[edit]

In the Level Select screen accessible by a code at the title screen, Hidden Palace does not appear, instead indicated in the menu as Lava Reef 4. Likewise, the Lava Reef Act 2 boss is actually coded under Lava Reef 3. This is the only time a Zone has been given a fourth Act, the previous maximum being three (all Sonic 1 Zones, Metropolis Zone of Sonic 2). This record is broken by Knuckles' Chaotix, where each Zone has five Acts.

I really don't like this much, because I feel it makes much more sense to look at this only in the sense that there really wasn't room for them to put a specific space for Hidden Palace or Death Egg Act 2 part 2.

Bonus stages[edit]

It seems the original numbers were correct (20-34 rings = slot machine, 35-49 = magnet tower, 50-65 = gumball), but I have got bonus stages above 65 rings as well, although I got the magnet tower that time (only tested this once). INVERTED 12:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the correct order above 65. It's likely the same pattern that repeates over and over again. 65-79 is roughly the slot machines, 80-90 the magnets and around 100 the gumballs. Regardless, this information doesn't really belong in the article. I doubt the casual reader finds any value in this at all. --Steerpike 12:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Lock-on Pictures[edit]

I removed the two lock on pictures from the main article and moved them here. I think we should only keep the second (S&K with S3 on it), but the image would be better if it was transposed. --Steerpike 12:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The "lock-on technology" of the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge
File:Sega Genesis- Sonic & Knuckles locked on to Sonic3.jpg
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 locked on to Sonic & Knuckles cartridge

Bit of trivia[edit]

In the Knuckles storyline, the Robotnik bosses are all the Egg Robos, except for the Flying Battery Zone boss, which is clearly still Robotnik. If this is worth adding to the article, could somebody else do it? I am having difficulty wording it... it keeps coming out sounding really stupid. (Maybe it just is!) -- DocSigma 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is. This bit of trivia was actually in the article until recently but I cut it out. I just fail to see the relevance of this information to the game Sonic & Knuckles. Only nerds could possibly be interested in this, and in that respect, there are a ton of other sites on the net to provide those obscure details. --Steerpike 19:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Not really. I think it's important to include such information to keep the article completely comprehensive, as Knuckles' timeline runs after Sonic's. --Tr33zon 10:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
So what if only "nerds" would care? Probable statistics are that most people reading this article are, in fact, "nerds".KeineLust90 23:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

For pity's sake. That was just a mistake on Sonic Team's part! They forgot that the FBZ doesn't use the custom Eggman sprite (unlike other the bosses), so they forgot to create a Eggrobo sprite for this zone's boss. It's not meant to have any significance in the story! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ESE150 (talkcontribs) 12:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Zones Section[edit]

We need to put more information on the Zones, all the zones have short information and they haven't got the boss information, as well as the Badniks. If we can complete this section, then ALL the article will be complete.
200.55.109.224 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sonic/Knuckles Timeframe[edit]

You can't base that information on Original Research. If you make an absolute claim such as this, you need to have a direct source provided for it. Whether or not certain landmarks are there during either game is irrelevant. For example, how do we know that neither game replaces the other as the "canon" version of events (such as in a Resident Evil game)? How do you know that Sonic AND Knuckles' games both took place, much less in what order?King Zeal 15:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


Hmm I suppose that is possible, but I'm not using any original research, just putting in facts that are observed in gameplay. We'd probably have to e-mail Yuji Naka to figure this one out. Ashura96 16:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"Observed facts" is original research. Wikipedia requires that any information put into its article has to be cited with a verifiable source. What you "observe" is merely that there are differences between Sonic and Knuckles' stages throughout the game. However, you cannot provide your own logic and state that one takes place AFTER the other unless there's something that directly states such. Otherwise, it is original research. King Zeal 17:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Project Chaos[edit]

I changed the Project Chaos link to point to its actual homepage. The original wiki article along with several others about OC ReMix's projects was deleted after AfD (for lack of notability). 151.20.159.186 10:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Sonic & Knuckles Lock-On Technology merge[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Merge done. Miremare 17:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

There's been a template proposing Sonic & Knuckles Lock-On Technology be merged into this article for a while, but no discussion on here! Let's have it. As the technology wasn't used in any other game, it's a merge from me. Miremare 17:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I think so, too - if it's the only game that is using it, why does it need a separate article? The only problem is that the Lock-On Technology is quite a long article and it could be considered too long for a single section. It would be a shame to condense it. Monkey Chief 16:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It's quite long, but I don't think it's too long, especially considering the Sonic & Knuckles article is quite short. Miremare 17:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Un-merge lock-on technology?[edit]

Re. the above merge discussion:

Actually, the MSX has similar technology in certain Konami games [1]. Although not quite identical to Sonic & Knuckles’ lock-on tech, because most MSX computers have a secondary cartridge slot and there is thus no need for fitting an extra cartridge slot on top of a cartridge, the technology bears much resemblance. The changes resulting from combining two games vary from small visual changes or cheats, up to an extra level (Salamander + Nemesis 2). Most of the games actually have the features built-in and merely detect the presence of the other game, but at least one actually modifies the other game’s code before running it (King Kong 2 + Firebird). So, maybe a separate page for this kind of tech is warranted after all? Grauw (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

But did they run alone? NeoDoubleGames 17:30, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Sonic 3 and Knuckles[edit]

Is the complete game (i.e. Sonic 3 and Knuckles) available in other platforms or part of a compilation for other platforms? --Pinoysurfer 05:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all the compilations that contain Sonic & Knuckles have both Sonic 2 & Knuckles and Sonic 3 & Knuckles too. Miremare 12:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Except Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection. Read its article to find out why... 66.227.220.139 (talk) 22:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Image?[edit]

In the caption for the screenshot of Knuckles accessing an exclusive route, it says that he is in the "Marble Zone". There was no zone with this name in Sonic and Knuckles. I have never played the original Sonic the Hedgehog game, so the zone could be from that game. If so, it should be stated in the caption. Also, on the image tag, it says that the purpose of the image is "To show the hack." Is the entire zone a hack? The closest zone to the screenshot would be the Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3. If it is a hack, however, why is it allowed on Wikipedia. I thought user-created hacks were forbidden. It is definitely not necesarry, in any case, because there are a multitude of other Knuckles-exclusive pathway throughout the game. The image might need to be removed. ISmellDonuts (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Marble Zone is in sonic 1 the hack is knuckles in sonic 1 zones 75.58.19.18 (talk) 00:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Knucklesmarble.png[edit]

The image Image:Knucklesmarble.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

This picture is not affiliated with 'Sonic & Knuckles' it all. NeoDoubleGames 17:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

ReWrite[edit]

Anyone mind if I go through the S&K Article, and suggest changes smiler to the ones I Made in the Sonic 3 article? 81.137.159.61 (talk) 11:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Virtual Console?[edit]

One of the listed platforms is "Virtual Console". While Sega does (apparently) plan to release Sonic & Knuckles on Virtual Console, they haven't done so yet. So, should "Virtual Console" be one of the listed platforms before it's actually been released there? Xmoogle (talk) 23:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

US Release Date[edit]

I noticed that the United States release date was October 17, 1994. I changed it to October 18, 1994 as that was the day it was actually released. If I am wrong, which I'm pretty sure of myself on this since I remember that day very clearly. Here's a site that supports my change. http://www.freewebs.com/sonic_x-treme/genesisgames.htm Joseppi84 (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Plot section name change[edit]

I have noticed that the plot listed in the American manual which is paraphrased here does not make sense considering the contents of the gameplay. First, Knuckles' quest has him fighting Sonic zero times, but has him trying to hinder Sonic and Tails in their quest. Second, the ghosts in Sandopolis Zone Act 2 are already released when Knuckles enters it, while they were trapped in one of Eggman's prisons until Sonic and Tails release them in their quest. Third, why would he be fighting Robotnik's forces while fighting Sonic and Tails? Knuckles learns that Robotnik was a bad guy in the Hidden Palace Zone in Sonic and Tails' quest according to the American manual and the gameplay, and this conflicts with the American story because if he knew about it before hand, he should have figured out that Robotnik could have been a liar, and he does fight Robotnik and not an EggRobo in Act 2 of the Flying Battery Zone in his quest.

Also, Sega of America often changed the plot around in other games until Sonic Adventure became too much to Americanize, forcing Sega of America to scrap its story and go along with the Japanese story. For example, the Sonic games occur in Mobius on American versions, while they occur on Earth in the Japanese story. Sonic CD had Amy Rose's name changed to Princess Sally. The only change that Sega of Japan accepted was changing Eggman's name to Ivo Robotnik because "Maria Eggman" was awkward AFAIK. (This is the only change I feel was necessary due to the need to avoid a lawsuit from the Beatles due to the name "Eggman" due to the way Americans tend to file lawsuits over anything.)

By the way, could someone who has seen the Japanese manual put up its plot in this article? Jesse Viviano (talk) 09:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog 4[edit]

Since the new Sonic 4 is coming, should there be an article regarding it here? Or even on the Sonic 3 page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingplatypus (talkcontribs) 01:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Eggman vs Robotnik[edit]

Unless I'm mistaken, Dr. Robotnik was never referred to as "Eggman" until Sonic Adventure. This article alternates between the two names in various places, especially in the "Sonic's Story" and "Knuckles' Story" sections. I wanted to edit them to all say Robotnik, but I figured I should bring it up here, since this issue was passed around quite a bit in the discussion for Sonic 4. Lord Psyko Jo (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe you are right as far as English-speaking regions, but I believe he was called Eggman in the older Genesis games in the Japanese versions. I'm not entirely sure, and I don't have a source to back it up, but that would be additional explanation as to why there's so many arguments about this... Sergecross73 msg me 12:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Why Super Tails and Hyper n Super Knuckles[edit]

Why Did SEGA made super Tails and Hyper(and Super) Knuckles,if they aren't going to appear in any other game,could it be that they just want to make S3&K the best game by making Tails and Knuckles super and hyper? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.25.111 (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

You are right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.47.212 (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Yeah why did Sega made them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.47.212 (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Another reminder of that this is not a messageboard where you randomly discuss the game. It's supposed to be about discussing the article itself. Random pondering about the game itself doesn't belong here. Sergecross73 msg me 15:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Knuckles' levels are noticeably more challenging than Sonic's, with certain bosses made more difficult..."[edit]

I haven't deleted this yet but can someone cite a few examples of areas that are increased in difficulty? As for bosses being more difficult, I can't think of any instance where this is the case (except in S3&K in Marble Garden and that's subjective - plus you can get to the flying Robotnik battle that is only meant for Sonic or Tails anyway). In fact whilst gliding, Knuckles' ability to deflect certain projectiles from any angle makes things easier, along with covering large distances across certain levels and being able to easily cruise over pits, lava etc. where Sonic needs precision jumping. groovygower (talk) 03:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Famitsu[edit]

I remember there being a review from Famitsu that was significantly more negative than the rest of the ones cited now: a 25/40, if I'm not mistaken. There also may have been one from IGN or something at, like, a 7 out of 10. I enjoy this game a great deal - it's my second favorite of the Classics, the first being Sonic 3 - but I can't shake off the feeling that its reception has been exaggerated through pruning. Tezero (talk) 21:20, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Release date[edit]

Does anybody feel like the release dates could be wrong? Other sites give different dates, so it might be worth confirming the true date for each region. I saw a 1994 Japanese promo ad on YouTube that gave the date of 10/18, so at least that's correct. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Has there been nobody looking into this? At the very least, we could find the exact day used for Australia's November release date. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Small reception[edit]

Is there really nothing else available for the Reception? I'd think you'd need reviews from the game's original release in order for the section to be sufficiently broad. czar  14:09, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it's too short, and I think it's going to be a plausible amount of time before this gets reviewed, so I'll try to find more sources for the reception. I couldn't find any print sources (because that's where the majority of content lies in) but I'll keep looking. Jaguar 14:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Jaguar, there are a few reviews here - this is where most of my Sonic print sources come from. Tezero (talk) 14:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that, it's just what this needs. I'll see what I can do about that today Jaguar 14:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm expanding the reception section - do you think some of those entries in the link you gave would pass reliability? Jaguar 23:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sonic & Knuckles/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 18:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


Happy to offer a review. I didn't play this one, but I did have a number of early Sonic games on my Master System. J Milburn (talk) 18:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Unless I am mistaken, per WP:LEADLENGTH, three paragraphs seems excessive for an article this short. Two would probably be more appropriate. The first couple of lines, for starters, are very repetitive.
  • I've cut down and compressed some parts of the lead, but bearing in mind I used Sonic 3 and Sonic 2‍‍ '​‍s leads for reference Jaguar 21:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The caption? I've elaborated on the wording, but if you would like a new screenshot let me know? Jaguar 21:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I have uploaded and replaced it with a new image as I could not edit the non-free rationale of the previous photo. I hope nobody minds Jaguar 19:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Wait, why couldn't you edit the rationale of that one? I was actually the one who uploaded it, which I did because the Sonic series article's screenshots at the time created the misleading impression that Sonic himself is by far the only significant character in the series, when much to some critics' chagrin, the opposite is true. Was it that the full, editable page wasn't showing up? You have to remove everything between "wiki/" and "/File:" in the URL. Tezero (talk) 18:05, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I could see the tags on the file page but whenever I tried editing it nothing would show up. I know you uploaded it too, which is why I felt guilty replacing it with another because I didn't really know how to change the rationale on yours. If you would like to replace it again I would be happy. I prefer the Flying Battery to Mushroom Hill any day! Jaguar 23:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Presumably, the link to the installation of Japanese characters should go after the Japanese, not the transliteration?
  • Sorry I don't understand, which link did you mean? Jaguar 21:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The superscript question mark in the first line of the lead. J Milburn (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I see, I don't know to change/remove it as the template goes {{nihongo|'''''Sonic & Knuckles'''''|ソニック&ナックルズ|Sonikku to Nakkuruzu|lead=yes}} - I tried moving both instances around but the question mark was still there? Jaguar 19:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • " A direct sequel to Sonic the Hedgehog 3, which the game follows both Sonic the Hedgehog and Knuckles the Echidna in their quest to stop Dr. Robotnik's orbital weapon, the Death Egg, from destroying Angel Island." This doesn't make sense
  • My mistake, I removed the "which" from the sentence which seemed to confuse everybody. Though the plot is a little more complex, I think this single sentence summarises the basics of the story/gameplay though I can expand if you like? Jaguar 21:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "During the development of Sonic 3, both games were originally planned to be a single story within the same cartridge, however, time constraints and costs of a large non-volatile RAM cartridge would have been considerably expensive, Sega made the decision was made to split the game into two separate installments." Unclear, and, again, doesn't seem to make grammatical sense
  • Reworded Jaguar 22:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "claiming that despite the similarities with that and its predecessor, it was still a great game" Unclear, informal
  • I think I forgot to put quotes there. Reworded slightly Jaguar 22:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Perhaps consider starting the plot section by explaining that there are two sides to the story? There's no harm in making things explicit.
  • Done Jaguar 22:05, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Sonic continues to track down Robotnik as he travels through each zone looking for the Chaos Emeralds, once again coming into conflict with Knuckles the Echidna, who believes he is trying to steal them." This is unclear- why is Sonic looking for the Emeralds? If he's not stealing them, what is he doing? Or is it Robotnik who is collecting Emeralds and in conflict with Knuckles?
  • Sonic is trying to retrieve the emeralds (as he did in previous games) to stop Robotink from harvesting their power, but Knuckles (a native) thinks he is unlawfully stealing them. I understand it sets a confusing impression, so I reworded to hopefully make things clearer. Although Tezero is more well-versed in Sonic lore than I am, I hope I've done it well enough! Jaguar 22:08, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Just so we're clear, could you specify where Egg Robo got the Master Emerald from? Did he steal it after Sonic had returned it to the island?
  • I think that occurred during Sonic 3, but I'll be corrected if it's wrong. Reworded Jaguar 22:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Who's Eggman? You mention him in the gameplay section, but not the plot section.
  • They're both the same, Eggman was Robotink's new name after the late '90s. Changed, I don't know how this one slipped through! Jaguar 22:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The plot section gives the impression that you have a series of Sonic levels followed by a series of Knuckles levels, but the gameplay section implies that you can choose which you're using at any stage. This is confusing.
  • You can choose either side at the beginning of the game, but there is no indication of which occurred first in-game so it's assumed that they are not chronological. The plot section is just written out so it puts Sonic and Knuckles in different paragraphs Jaguar 22:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • This isn't clear from the article- in fact, it explicitly says "Knuckles' side of the story follows after Sonic's", which seems to go against what you just said. This should be clarified. J Milburn (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've boldly re-worded this sentence as I don't think it's true, as in the game there is no indication of which happened before or after; but I'll have to play it again just to be sure (GANs are sure great, they give me an excuse to play video games for 'research') Jaguar 23:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Is the bonus stage diagram really that important? It feels a bit gameguide-y.
  • A diagram is used in Sonic 3, and a similar one in Shadow the Hedgehog but I understand how it would feel like a gameguide. Should I remove it? Jaguar 22:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd lean towards removing it. It's not particularly clear, it's gameguide-y and it would probably make the article look a bit tidier. J Milburn (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Special stages are entered by finding giant rings hidden in secret passageways and works similarly to its counterpart in Sonic 3" Unclear. Also, does the instruction manual really say that it works similarily to the Sonic 3 counterpart, or is that OR?
  • It's true that the special stages are virtually identical to its predecessor, mechanic-wise, but I've had a look through the North American manual (I don't have the original physical game) but that itself doesn't mention anything about Sonic 3. Since the manual itself didn't mention it, I've boldly removed the "and works similarly to its counterpart in Sonic 3" part. Jaguar 22:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • There's a second mention of Sonic 3 in that paragraph which should probably also be removed. J Milburn (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Removed Jaguar 22:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Early development screenshots suggest Knuckles was planned to be playable in the first Sonic the Hedgehog via Sonic & Knuckles '​ lock-on technology, but this feature was removed prior to release." Does the cited source say this explicitly?
  • I assume it does since the source is only citationed there, but since I don't have a copy of it I've added another source along side it just to be safe Jaguar 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "A special on the game showing the tournament finale, "MTV's Rock the Rock", was aired shortly before the game's release" Unclear
  • Reworded Jaguar 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "The game was released on October 18, 1994." Where? Worldwide?
  • Clarified Jaguar 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Most compilations feature the game largely unchanged." This sounds like OR
  • Re-worded and referenced Jaguar 23:48, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I feel the reception section could be expanded further- at the very least, you have some more reviews in the ratings box? (Also, check your italics.)
  • I don't think names from the review box can be italicised, but you're right, it does need an expansion. I was going to expand it yesterday if I didn't get caught up with things outside Wikipedia. I'll start expanding it now Jaguar 22:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Just a little thing, but avoid personification. IGN didn't praise the game, Lucas Thomas, writing for IGN, did.
  • Addressed Jaguar 23:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • In the infobox, is there any way to separate the platforms on which it was originally released and on which it was rereleased? (Also, you're missing Steam).
  • I don't think so, and I think Steam are usually discouraged from infoboxes, but I'm actually not sure on that, so I'll check and if it's used I'll add it Jaguar 23:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

This isn't a bad article at all- with a bit of tweaking (especially smoothing out of prose) this will likely be ready for GA status. J Milburn (talk) 19:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Some other points- please check my edits and make sure I haven't introduced any issues. The development section is rather light, but we can let this slide for GAC. I note that you include a number of people involved in the production in the infobox, but they're not mentioned in the prose- where's the source? Why are they not mentioned in the article? You've also got loads of release dates in the infobox- where are the sources for these? J Milburn (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@J Milburn: thanks for your helpful review! I think I have addressed all your points, with Tezero addressing Axem's notes. I have referenced the infobox people from the online manual, as the staff credits are mentioned there. Expanding the reception section proved tricky with only a couple of print sources we could find, but I managed to squeeze an extra paragraph and a half out of it. If you feel like it needs more of an expansion, I could go onto search for more online sources if possible, but it's puzzling why the mainstream critics did not provide online reviews for this game. I know you said the development is fine for this GAN, but I think the reason why it is looking bare is because this game was developed as Sonic 3, so both sections would be more or less identical. I've also added references for the release dates. I don't know if it's necessary or essential to include whoever worked on the game into the prose, but I'd add it into the development section if we ever plan on FACing this. Please let me know what you think of it so far? Jaguar 00:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok- I've seen this comment, and another look through this article is on my to-do list. J Milburn (talk) 10:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@J Milburn: I think me and Tezero have everything addressed here and I've took another look through. Please let us know what you think? Jaguar 22:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Notes from Sergecross[edit]

  • "Eggman" is the Japanese name for Robotnik. It should probably just be Robotnik the whole way through for consistency.
  • Isn't the Reception section a bit weak/short for such a major release? Sergecross73 msg me 19:33, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Notes from Axem Titanium[edit]

Not part of the official GA review, just some thoughts I had while copyediting.

  • Too many composers listed in infobox, especially considering that there's no "music" section. Pick the top 1 or 2 contributors, cull the rest.
  • I'm almost positive the rest will be added back by an IP or rarely active user if I take them out altogether, so as a stopgap I've put them all but Senoue in a collapsible list. Tezero (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Is "Sega Genesis/Mega Drive" really the accepted convention for that? Gross.
  • "During the development of Sonic 3, both games" - which games? Are you referring to Sonic 2 or S&K?
  • The latter; clarified. Tezero (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "installment" - personal pet peeve, reminds me of monthly payments for QVC products; I've taken all of these out
  • "This version of these stages feature yellow spheres" - as opposed to what other versions?
  • The ones in Sonic 3. Fixed. Tezero (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • There's a PlayStation 3 listing for release dates in the infobox but I don't know what release it's supposed to refer to. The only PS3 release I can find mention of is Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection which was also released on 360.
  • Fixed. The idea must've been to mention the PS3 as the only platform then since the game got another 360 release, as a kind of "most definitive" release for each platform. Tezero (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I thought EGM used numbers not stars for their ratings?
  • I think it was stars earlier on. Tezero (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Hope this helps! Axem Titanium (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The usual convention is to mention Sega Genesis/Mega Drive the first time, with a Wiki-link, to avoid any confusion, and then just use "Sega Genesis" after that, to keep it consistent with its article name,and not use that wordy name hybrid all over the place. Sergecross73 msg me 14:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I was about to say the usual rationale is to mention Sega Genesis/Mega Drive as it is featured the majority of articles. This is also a 'worldwide' game, so the use of both is more acceptable. On 'installments', I prefer to mention them if it's a part of a game franchise. But I'll address your other points after I've expanded the reception, thanks for your input! Jaguar 18:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I see you've added more reviews to the review box. Since they cover multiple platforms, I think you need to label all of them now to prevent confusion. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Done. Regarding the bizarre Mushroom Hill caption, that probably came from me copying and pasting the thumbnail format (why'd I need to do that again?) from the article on Sonic 3, whose second zone is used there. Tezero (talk) 16:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

JM's second review[edit]

  • "hailed it as "an exceptional game" despite its similarity to its predecessor" Quotes, even in the lead, need citations.
  • Added Jaguar 17:27, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • You still don't mention the Steam release in the lead or infobox
  • Added to the lead, but Steam releases are discouraged from the infoboxes of articles, I'm not sure why Jaguar 17:27, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "where Dr. Robotnik's orbital weapon, the Death Egg, is damaged in a battle with Sonic and crash-lands back onto Angel Island" Does this happen in 3 or this game? Ambiguous.
  • I think it's already there - "after the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3, where Dr. Robotnik's orbital weapon, the Death Egg, is damaged". The events happened at the end of Sonic 3, should I reword it anyway? Jaguar 17:30, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • It's unclear to me whether the location referred to in the "where" is the "Sonic 3" referred to in the previous clause or the "after Sonic 3" referred to in the previous clause. J Milburn (talk) 19:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "and once again" Unclear- when has he before?
  • Through Sonic 3 Jaguar 17:46, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "who believes Sonic is trying to steal the Emeralds." Still unclear- if he's not trying to steal them, what is he trying to do?
  • He is trying to collect them, but the confusion is more over his intention. Fixed. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Knuckles attempts to Robotnik" ??
  • Fixed. Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • What is a "mech"?
  • Don't actually know! I think it's another word for robot? Mech = mechanical? I didn't get this either, so I've changed it to "mechanical fighter". If memory serves me well he was sitting inside a giant robot of himself, so I think that's what it is referring to. If I'm ever wrong I hope somebody will reword it Jaguar 17:33, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Mecha should work. Schwa sounds are just too much work for laypeople to include, huh? Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Concerning EggRobo- is it an EggRobo or is it just EggRobo? Also, could we have an explanation of what precisely it is?
  • Done. Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "he uses the power of the Master" MechaSonic or Knuckles?
  • Knuckles. Fixed. Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The rationale on the new screenshot is still pretty poor. It could do with being cleaned/expanded.
  • I admit I'm no good with images nor am I well versed in different copyright laws, but I state on the file that it will be used in one article alone (as with numerous other gameplay still images). Is this what you are referring to? Jaguar 17:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The non-free content criteria require that each use of each non-free image requires a separate, specific non-free use rationale. This rationale explains why the image meets the NFCC, including expanding on its source, what it adds to the article in question and why it cannot be replaced by free content (including text). The templates are useful to help us format rationales, but leaving "NA" and vague comments is not useful. If you are struggling to write a rationale, you have to ask if the image is really adding anything at all. (This was intended as a general comment- right now, I have no opinion on the use of the image, other than the fact that its rationale is pretty lacking.) J Milburn (talk) 00:10, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • How about this? I've also shrunk the image after cropping out those pesky black bars. Tezero (talk) 17:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks, I get it now. All of the rationales I upload are pretty weak, and I've uploaded a lot of game screenshots, but truth be told I wasn't aware that people would actually look at the file pages Jaguar 18:14, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "However, the player chooses either Sonic or Knuckles at the title screen." This needs more- how about "However, in Sonic & Knuckles, unlike in Sonic the Hedgehog 3, the player chooses either Sonic or Knuckles at the title screen."
  • Changed Jaguar 17:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Unlike their equivalents in Sonic 3," As I said above, if this is not explicitly in the cited source, it's OR.
  • Since it's not included in the manual, I removed the sentence Jaguar 17:54, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Along with its predecessor, both games were originally planned to be a single story built within the same cartridge" This needs to be rewritten
  • Done. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "A special episode was produced on the game showing the tournament finale, "MTV's Rock the Rock", was aired shortly before the game's release." This doesn't make sense. Also, a special episode of what?
  • Reworded. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "Most compilations feature the game largely unchanged from its original release.[3]" I hate to be a pain, but where does the source say this?
  • Hm, you're right. I must've clung to the sentence "The vast majority of retro re-releases through the Wii's Virtual Console are straight emulations, given no extra effort or features", but that's about Virtual Console releases, not all releases of this game. I've just removed the statement. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • ""Normal" mode altered the layout of rings and hazards and "Easy" mode removes" Tense shift
  • Fixed. Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm still seeing a lot of personification in the reception section- it's lazy writing
  • Fixed. Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • "adding that Sonic & Knuckles '​ new hidden stages and re-designed bosses would strongly add to its replay value." What's being referred to here?
  • What do you mean? Tezero (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • These are "new" hidden stages and the bosses are "redesigned" compared to what? I'm just not really sure what's being claimed. J Milburn (talk) 17:01, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oh, gotcha. Clarified. Tezero (talk) 17:13, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Wow. Edit conflict. I was rewording it too but looks like you beat me to it Jaguar 17:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid the article's still not really at a GA level. J Milburn (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Probably was nominated a little hastily, yeah. But I think we can get this done in short order. Tezero (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest the article was nominated too early- just that some more fixes need to be made before production! J Milburn (talk) 19:01, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I think that was my fault. I shouldn't have nominated this with a half-finished reception section... but nevertheless, this review has helped the article through leaps and bounds, thanks all Jaguar 16:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

J Milburn, are we ready to go? Tezero (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Promotion[edit]

Ok, at this stage, I'm willing to promote this article to GA status. Here are some comments to think about moving forward, especially if you've got your eye on FAC:

  • Expansion: Both the "Development" and "Reception" sections are a little light.
  • Sources: The sources you cite look OK, but I wonder whether there might be more out there- especially in languages other than English.
  • Stability: This article seems to attract a lot of edits- be sure that the current version reflects consensus, but that it doesn't deteriorate.
  • Images: Be aware that some may challenge the use of the screenshot- there's no "automatic" green light on screenshots of video games.

Other than that, copyediting will never heard. Good work so far, though- the article's looking pretty good. Apologies for the delays! J Milburn (talk) 19:23, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't the article have a short section dealing with the zones? Hawaiifive0 (talk) 10:26, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

That sounds a little like WP:FANCRUFT- information which is of interest to fans, but doesn't really have much real-world significance. Do you have reliable, third party sources which discuss the zones? J Milburn (talk) 17:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, I do. I will add them shortly. Hawaiifive0 (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Try not to get too detailed, though. Unless there are multiple sources saying different things about all the zones or something, it leans UNDUE to cover them in much depth. Tezero (talk) 05:52, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
They're mostly print magazines, which are generally reliable. Sergecross73 msg me 23:39, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a different game, from about 20 years ago[edit]

The article is just wrong.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles was one of my first games when i was a kid over 20 years ago, it was NOT released 4 years ago on Steam.


It is a completely different game.

It has a multiplayer mode for those 3d ball stages, all the content from Sonic 3, all the content from Sonic & Knuckles AND even a REALLY well made connection between those games (If you collect all Emeralds during the events of Sonic 3, Knuckles will steal them from you in the Main storyline, which unlocks access to the BIG chaos emeralds, that transform you into SSJ3, aka Hyper Sonic, who is just awesome. Basically, after beating the game, you can use him everywhere, and blast through the stages in SECONDS!)

Sonic 3 was great, Sonic and Knuckles was great, but the combination of those two, just made them the best game ever. Should be stated somewhere that there is a MAYOR difference between the games, because the "single" games, basically just have 33% of the content of the "whole" game, and of course they are missing one of the best things in video games ever... Being allowed to DESTROY everything just by looking at it, including bosses that you spend hours on before, once you beat the game...
OFC i can't say anything about the Steam version. But that one most likely has everything good removed with "patches". The game is free for over 10 years anyways, no need to pay for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.10.123.27 (talk) 09:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The sentence is saying that of Sonic & Knuckles being released on Steam as it's own game, it was released alongside the connected Sonic 3 version. The game doesn't have anything added or removed, as it's emulated rather than a true port. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 11:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Four years ago, I believe, was the first time Sonic 3 & Knuckles was released as one game. Of course you could have combined the Genesis cartridges earlier; mashing two games together that weren't built together would be a strange idea indeed. Tezero (talk) 18:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you both for fielding that one. I was about to delete the question when I first saw it, with it being so incoherent... Sergecross73 msg me 18:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
It's a forgivable mistake, I think. From my experience at the Sega Forums and, to a lesser extent, a few smaller communities, the fanbase almost unilaterally considers this and S&K to be one game, even more so than the two Sonic 4 episodes or the console and DS versions of Colors. I'm just an oddball as I grew up with Mega Collection for the GameCube and the individual PC ports, not the original carts on the Genesis. Tezero (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2015 (UTC)