Talk:Sonic & Knuckles
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sonic & Knuckles article.|
|WikiProject Video games||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
- 1 Sonic Timeline
- 2 Deadline Trouble
- 3 3 Player
- 4 Intro paragraph trimmed
- 5 clean-up
- 6 Super Emeralds
- 7 Questionable
- 8 Bonus stages
- 9 Lock-on Pictures
- 10 Bit of trivia
- 11 Zones Section
- 12 Sonic/Knuckles Timeframe
- 13 Project Chaos
- 14 Sonic & Knuckles Lock-On Technology merge
- 15 Un-merge lock-on technology?
- 16 Sonic 3 and Knuckles
- 17 Misplaced Image?
- 18 Image copyright problem with Image:Knucklesmarble.png
- 19 ReWrite
- 20 Virtual Console?
- 21 US Release Date
- 22 Plot section name change
- 23 Sonic the Hedgehog 4
- 24 Eggman vs Robotnik
- 25 Why Super Tails and Hyper n Super Knuckles
- 26 "Knuckles' levels are noticeably more challenging than Sonic's, with certain bosses made more difficult..."
As it may be seen at the begging of "Sonic III", it is a direct sequence of "Sonic II": just after returning from the Death Egg on the plane piloted by Tails, Sonic jumps out after Knuckles.
"Sonic & Knuckles", on the other hand, would be placed between "Sonic I" and "Sonic II". Do you agree with it? Tonyjeff 20:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- The whole point of Sonic & Knuckles is that it takes place the INSTANT after Sonic 3. The title screen even depicts the Death Egg falling from near-orbit, thanks to Sonic at the end of the Launch Base Zone, as shown even more clearly if you play "Sonic 3 & Knuckles". And if Sonic & Knuckles takes place before Sonic 2, why isn't Knuckles in the plot of Sonic 2? The Genesis/Mega Drive Sonic games all seem to take place in the order they were released, if you ask me. The only truly perplexing continuity issue in the entire franchise is Sonic CD, in my honest opinion, though even that would seem to take place between the first two games when you consider Sonic 3 most definitely happens right after Sonic 2.
- The start of Sonic 3 doesn't begin with Sonic jumping out after Knuckles. According to the instruction manual, Sonic and Tails just happened upon the Floating Island/Angel Island. Knuckles, brainwashed by Dr Robotnik, ambushed Sonic who still had the 7 Chaos Emeralds from the end of Sonic 2.
- I'm sure we'll all be willing to take your idea on board if you can back it up well enough. Is there anything else you feel suggests Sonic & Knuckles goes between the first two games? --L T Dangerous 15:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I really don´t know exactly, as I think it would be much more a gossip I heard off from some VG magazine by the time. All that I remember is that Knuckles wouldn´t appear during the "normal" "Sonic II" because he would be occupied with his own business; however, since you can play "Sonic" II WITH Knucles, it would suggest that he already exists by the time. But anyway, I feel that you are plenty right, as S&K wouldn´t fit that well between the first two games... Do you think it is possible to trace a Chronological line with all the games of Sonic for the 4 and 8 bits generations? Just another day I came through two games with Tails released for Sega Master System (Mark 3). You could state where each game fits and the basic reasons for that (as you have just done). There´s also "Knucles Chaotix" released for Sega32X which could reveal something relevant for the main canon. 22.214.171.124 10:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Sonic 3 is a direct seuqel to Sonic 2. After Sonic took down Mecha-Robotnik, the Death Egg ended up falling into the Floating Island, causing it to fall into the ocean below. If you take a close look at the opening to Sonic 3, Sonic and Tails never go up at all until after they get to the island. During Launch Base, the Death Egg rises from the island...and slams back into it again. Sonic 3 isn't a "right after" sequel like S&K was but it does link back to Sonic 2. I'll quote the exact part of the manual when I get home. 126.96.36.199 19:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
About Sonic CD this cannot take place before Sonic 2 and I only have one pice of evedence. The Robotic Sonic. I mean look we have in Sonic 2 a pretty basic and chunky robot wich is nothing like the blue blur. and now look at S3&K another Sonic robot is introduced. Another chunky robot though this one is fast he still is not a very good copy. Now look at Sonic CD we have another Sonic robot Metal Sonic this is the sonic robot we see most in the series and it is (in my oppionion) the most advanced by far it (he?) is fast it is small it is sexy. So if so then it would go like this. (I am not including the handheld consoles for now). Crap Sonic robot>>>>>cool sonic robot>>>crap Sonic robot.
So in conclusion I say that Sonic CD must come after Sonic 2/3/&K. -unregistred user Koryan
- But Sonic CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was developed by other dev teams, at the same time; Sonic 2 was developed in USA while Sonic CD was developed in Japan. So the Sonic 2 dev team was not aware of Metal Sonic and the Sonic CD dev team was not aware of Silver Sonic. Also, Tails does only appear as an hidden picture, triggered by an cheat code. So Sonic CD must go after Sonic 1 but before Sonic 2 GG. End of (off topic) discussion. NeoDoubleGames 17:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
You should really look at the magazine entitled Sonic's First. It clearly shows that you don't see Knuckles untill Sonic takes a vacation on Angle Island. End of story, bye bye, see you later! Saprissy (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's in the continuity of the comic, not the games. Ray and jub (talk) 17:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The text below was originally on the main page, but really needs a grammatical cleanup and some verification of the data. I've taken the liberty of removing the text and placing it here until that can be accomplished.
Sonic 3, and Sonic & Knuckles are the same exact game, but Sonic 3 had to be released before they could finish it at sonic team, proof in this is the fact that the Flying Battery zone's title card, music, and bosses, were left in the game, they will also load up if you force the level, also the game concept art of the robots from Flying Battery Zone appeared in the Sonic 3 manual. They split the game and released sonic 3 because of the deadline, but in addition to this, they were able to make a knuckles in sonic 2 patch for sonic 2.
--Technogeek 05:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's true. Sonic 3 & Knuckles was originally devised as one game, but time restraints eventually caused Sega to split it in two halves. As mentioned above, music from Sonic & Knuckles stuck in Sonic 3, as well as a few levels. If you enter the level select, you can even see some of Sonic & Knuckles' levels. Apparently the original order was a bit different as well. I agree it has to be rewritten though. --Steerpike 10:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I was told by someone that you could get three player when you locked in Sonic and Knuckles with Sonic 3. However it was only shown if you had the 4 player addon thing. I was wondering if someone can varify weather this is true. If it is I belive the page should be updated as needed. - Jedaz 12:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- False rumor. Jedi6 22:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Intro paragraph trimmed
This is pretty minor, but since I removed content I feel I should explain. This doesn't make much sense to me:
- In fact, the minboss music is most likely a remix of Sonic 1's Marble Zone music.
A sentence that begins with "In fact" should not then immediately say "most likely," as that indicates that it is not a fact, but merely an opinion. I removed (well, commented out) that sentence, but if someone can verify that the music is a remix, please rewrite and put it back.
Rassilon 15:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fake to me
The members of [the Simon Wai's Sonic 2 Beta Page forums] have interviewed many of the creators of the games and such a statement has never come up. While there are many that we still have yet to contact, the fact that none of them have mentioned this fact coupled with the fact that several communities based on the games have yet to notice this remixing, I think it's safe to say that the remix idea is too much of a stretch. If anyone can provide incontrovertible proof to the contrary, of course, I'll eat my words.
SoNick Belmont 02:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
In accordance with the article on Sonic 3 I've drastically cut down both the level and trivia sections. The level section is just meant to be a short description of each zone and nothing more (although in all fairness, I have to admit that it was probably me who once wrote those lengthy zone descriptions :) ). I did retain the differences between Sonic and Knuckles. The trivia section was getting way too long and got littered with useless info. I took the liberty of cutting out the more arcane trivia "bits". --Steerpike 13:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added a section the Death Egg in regards to Knuckles's route. If you want to alter the text so it's shorter feel free to do so since it dose extend the Zone's description abit.
"BETA Route: Within Death Egg there is an alternate route with obsitcles designed for Knuckles to pass through. It is accessible via Debug mode and going down and then right. The route joins with the default route prior to the boss fight, where there is a fall that instantly kills whoever falls down. Along here is the one way door that Knuckles would use to enter Sonics route."Dark-Chaos 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see this info as being relevant actually. --Steerpike 20:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
In the article, it says that if the Super Emeralds are attempted but not collected, that the game reverts to the bad ending. This is not true.
In the Level Select screen accessible by a code at the title screen, Hidden Palace does not appear, instead indicated in the menu as Lava Reef 4. Likewise, the Lava Reef Act 2 boss is actually coded under Lava Reef 3. This is the only time a Zone has been given a fourth Act, the previous maximum being three (all Sonic 1 Zones, Metropolis Zone of Sonic 2). This record is broken by Knuckles' Chaotix, where each Zone has five Acts.
I really don't like this much, because I feel it makes much more sense to look at this only in the sense that there really wasn't room for them to put a specific space for Hidden Palace or Death Egg Act 2 part 2.
It seems the original numbers were correct (20-34 rings = slot machine, 35-49 = magnet tower, 50-65 = gumball), but I have got bonus stages above 65 rings as well, although I got the magnet tower that time (only tested this once). INVERTED 12:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know the correct order above 65. It's likely the same pattern that repeates over and over again. 65-79 is roughly the slot machines, 80-90 the magnets and around 100 the gumballs. Regardless, this information doesn't really belong in the article. I doubt the casual reader finds any value in this at all. --Steerpike 12:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the two lock on pictures from the main article and moved them here. I think we should only keep the second (S&K with S3 on it), but the image would be better if it was transposed. --Steerpike 12:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Bit of trivia
In the Knuckles storyline, the Robotnik bosses are all the Egg Robos, except for the Flying Battery Zone boss, which is clearly still Robotnik. If this is worth adding to the article, could somebody else do it? I am having difficulty wording it... it keeps coming out sounding really stupid. (Maybe it just is!) -- DocSigma 17:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is. This bit of trivia was actually in the article until recently but I cut it out. I just fail to see the relevance of this information to the game Sonic & Knuckles. Only nerds could possibly be interested in this, and in that respect, there are a ton of other sites on the net to provide those obscure details. --Steerpike 19:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- Not really. I think it's important to include such information to keep the article completely comprehensive, as Knuckles' timeline runs after Sonic's. --Tr33zon 10:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- So what if only "nerds" would care? Probable statistics are that most people reading this article are, in fact, "nerds".KeineLust90 23:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
For pity's sake. That was just a mistake on Sonic Team's part! They forgot that the FBZ doesn't use the custom Eggman sprite (unlike other the bosses), so they forgot to create a Eggrobo sprite for this zone's boss. It's not meant to have any significance in the story! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ESE150 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
We need to put more information on the Zones, all the zones have short information and they haven't got the boss information, as well as the Badniks. If we can complete this section, then ALL the article will be complete.
188.8.131.52 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
You can't base that information on Original Research. If you make an absolute claim such as this, you need to have a direct source provided for it. Whether or not certain landmarks are there during either game is irrelevant. For example, how do we know that neither game replaces the other as the "canon" version of events (such as in a Resident Evil game)? How do you know that Sonic AND Knuckles' games both took place, much less in what order?King Zeal 15:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm I suppose that is possible, but I'm not using any original research, just putting in facts that are observed in gameplay. We'd probably have to e-mail Yuji Naka to figure this one out. Ashura96 16:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- "Observed facts" is original research. Wikipedia requires that any information put into its article has to be cited with a verifiable source. What you "observe" is merely that there are differences between Sonic and Knuckles' stages throughout the game. However, you cannot provide your own logic and state that one takes place AFTER the other unless there's something that directly states such. Otherwise, it is original research. King Zeal 17:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the Project Chaos link to point to its actual homepage. The original wiki article along with several others about OC ReMix's projects was deleted after AfD (for lack of notability). 184.108.40.206 10:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Sonic & Knuckles Lock-On Technology merge
Un-merge lock-on technology?
Re. the above merge discussion:
Actually, the MSX has similar technology in certain Konami games . Although not quite identical to Sonic & Knuckles’ lock-on tech, because most MSX computers have a secondary cartridge slot and there is thus no need for fitting an extra cartridge slot on top of a cartridge, the technology bears much resemblance. The changes resulting from combining two games vary from small visual changes or cheats, up to an extra level (Salamander + Nemesis 2). Most of the games actually have the features built-in and merely detect the presence of the other game, but at least one actually modifies the other game’s code before running it (King Kong 2 + Firebird). So, maybe a separate page for this kind of tech is warranted after all? Grauw (talk) 00:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Sonic 3 and Knuckles
Is the complete game (i.e. Sonic 3 and Knuckles) available in other platforms or part of a compilation for other platforms? --Pinoysurfer 05:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, all the compilations that contain Sonic & Knuckles have both Sonic 2 & Knuckles and Sonic 3 & Knuckles too. Miremare 12:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
In the caption for the screenshot of Knuckles accessing an exclusive route, it says that he is in the "Marble Zone". There was no zone with this name in Sonic and Knuckles. I have never played the original Sonic the Hedgehog game, so the zone could be from that game. If so, it should be stated in the caption. Also, on the image tag, it says that the purpose of the image is "To show the hack." Is the entire zone a hack? The closest zone to the screenshot would be the Marble Garden Zone in Sonic 3. If it is a hack, however, why is it allowed on Wikipedia. I thought user-created hacks were forbidden. It is definitely not necesarry, in any case, because there are a multitude of other Knuckles-exclusive pathway throughout the game. The image might need to be removed. ISmellDonuts (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Knucklesmarble.png
The image Image:Knucklesmarble.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
- This picture is not affiliated with 'Sonic & Knuckles' it all. NeoDoubleGames 17:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
One of the listed platforms is "Virtual Console". While Sega does (apparently) plan to release Sonic & Knuckles on Virtual Console, they haven't done so yet. So, should "Virtual Console" be one of the listed platforms before it's actually been released there? Xmoogle (talk) 23:25, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
US Release Date
I noticed that the United States release date was October 17, 1994. I changed it to October 18, 1994 as that was the day it was actually released. If I am wrong, which I'm pretty sure of myself on this since I remember that day very clearly. Here's a site that supports my change. http://www.freewebs.com/sonic_x-treme/genesisgames.htm Joseppi84 (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Plot section name change
I have noticed that the plot listed in the American manual which is paraphrased here does not make sense considering the contents of the gameplay. First, Knuckles' quest has him fighting Sonic zero times, but has him trying to hinder Sonic and Tails in their quest. Second, the ghosts in Sandopolis Zone Act 2 are already released when Knuckles enters it, while they were trapped in one of Eggman's prisons until Sonic and Tails release them in their quest. Third, why would he be fighting Robotnik's forces while fighting Sonic and Tails? Knuckles learns that Robotnik was a bad guy in the Hidden Palace Zone in Sonic and Tails' quest according to the American manual and the gameplay, and this conflicts with the American story because if he knew about it before hand, he should have figured out that Robotnik could have been a liar, and he does fight Robotnik and not an EggRobo in Act 2 of the Flying Battery Zone in his quest.
Also, Sega of America often changed the plot around in other games until Sonic Adventure became too much to Americanize, forcing Sega of America to scrap its story and go along with the Japanese story. For example, the Sonic games occur in Mobius on American versions, while they occur on Earth in the Japanese story. Sonic CD had Amy Rose's name changed to Princess Sally. The only change that Sega of Japan accepted was changing Eggman's name to Ivo Robotnik because "Maria Eggman" was awkward AFAIK. (This is the only change I feel was necessary due to the need to avoid a lawsuit from the Beatles due to the name "Eggman" due to the way Americans tend to file lawsuits over anything.)
Sonic the Hedgehog 4
Since the new Sonic 4 is coming, should there be an article regarding it here? Or even on the Sonic 3 page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingplatypus (talk • contribs) 01:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Eggman vs Robotnik
Unless I'm mistaken, Dr. Robotnik was never referred to as "Eggman" until Sonic Adventure. This article alternates between the two names in various places, especially in the "Sonic's Story" and "Knuckles' Story" sections. I wanted to edit them to all say Robotnik, but I figured I should bring it up here, since this issue was passed around quite a bit in the discussion for Sonic 4. Lord Psyko Jo (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- I believe you are right as far as English-speaking regions, but I believe he was called Eggman in the older Genesis games in the Japanese versions. I'm not entirely sure, and I don't have a source to back it up, but that would be additional explanation as to why there's so many arguments about this... Sergecross73 msg me 12:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Why Super Tails and Hyper n Super Knuckles
Why Did SEGA made super Tails and Hyper(and Super) Knuckles,if they aren't going to appear in any other game,could it be that they just want to make S3&K the best game by making Tails and Knuckles super and hyper? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah why did Sega made them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Another reminder of that this is not a messageboard where you randomly discuss the game. It's supposed to be about discussing the article itself. Random pondering about the game itself doesn't belong here. Sergecross73 msg me 15:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
"Knuckles' levels are noticeably more challenging than Sonic's, with certain bosses made more difficult..."
I haven't deleted this yet but can someone cite a few examples of areas that are increased in difficulty? As for bosses being more difficult, I can't think of any instance where this is the case (except in S3&K in Marble Garden and that's subjective - plus you can get to the flying Robotnik battle that is only meant for Sonic or Tails anyway). In fact whilst gliding, Knuckles' ability to deflect certain projectiles from any angle makes things easier, along with covering large distances across certain levels and being able to easily cruise over pits, lava etc. where Sonic needs precision jumping. groovygower (talk) 03:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)