Talk:Southern Levant

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This article appears to be discussing a geographical region, but without actually mentioning where it is located. This seems absurd to this admittedly ignorant reader. It appears to be written from a archaeological POV that assumes the reader knows where this place is and is only looking for its relation to various archaelogical time periods. If so, it should be have a title like Archaeology of the Southern Levant. -- Jeff Q 01:36, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

I've added an intro and put it into clean-up. The term southern Levant is only really used by archaeologists, I think, so the title's probably OK (the article just needs work). --G Rutter 08:09, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Merge[edit]

I think this should be merged with Levant. The page isn't describing anything particularly different from the Levant page and there isn't a page for Northern Levant or Eastern Levant and the term is vague enough anyway as it's usage has changed over time. It looks like a forgotten about page to me. 90.193.39.151 (talk) 22:41, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

avoiding taking a stance?[edit]

I have removed the statement "These terms are used by archaeologists and residents of the region who wish to avoid taking a modern geo-political stance in a region rife with border disputes." as it is unsourced and an important statement. The archaelogists reference is believable, but i have never heard of "residents of the region" using the term in common parlance.

Can anyone provide WP:RS for this?

Oncenawhile (talk) 00:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

could the statement be rinstated if "residents of the region" was excluded? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources are provided in the Syro-Palestinian Archaeology page

"Archaeologists seeking a neutral orientation that is neither biblical nor national have utilized terms such as Syro-Palestinian archaeology and archaeology of the southern Levant. (Dever, William G. "Syro-Palestinian and Biblical Archaeology", pp. 1244-1253.) (Sharon, Ilan "Biblical archaeology" in "Encyclopedia of Archaeology" Elsevier.)"

Why was this citation removed? Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Removed text[edit]

Although the term was attested in the early 19th century[1], use of the term was extremely rare until at least 1967.[2][3]

We cannot come to such conclusions using such tools. Why? Because Googlebooks does not have each and every book ever published, It is obvious there are more than 54 early books which use the term. Secondly, the Neologism tool also suffers from the same problem and only shows a hike in the mid-20th century since that is when publishing was becoming more common, so natuarly it occurs in many more books. Chesdovi (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Chesdovi, hope you're well. I did think of both those points - if you read the expanation from google here you'll see that it is relatively clear. The key point you might have missed is that the chart shows a %, not an absolute number. As google says "Publishing was a relatively rare event in the 16th and 17th centuries. (There are only about 500,000 books published in English before the 19th century.) So if a phrase occurs in one book in one year but not in the preceding or following years, that creates a taller spike than it would in later years." So (1) it really is a "like for like" comparison, and (2) we don't have any big spikes in earlier years. You can dig further to find out the size of the data set, which you'll see is very large, even in the late 19th century. Google Books Ngrams a great source, and can be useful for lots of articles. Even so, the wording in the lede was written to provide a margin for error. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Ultimately the information is irrelevant however, one could say the same thing about the West Bank http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=West+Bank&year_start=1500&year_end=2008&corpus=0&smoothing=0 but it's not mentioned in the wikipedia article due to its unimportance. Drsmoo (talk) 19:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
It would be a good addition to the West Bank article. It's pretty intuitive that the term West Bank wasn't used often in English prior to 1967. And it proves that the ngram works. The only reason why it's not used more on wiki is because it is less than a year old. It is a very powerful tool and should be used more on wikipedia. Oncenawhile (talk) 01:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I disagree that it is relevant to an encyclopedia article. In the context of Wikipedia, it can be abused to push a non NPOV stance. Which is not to say it should never be used anywhere, just not in cases where it is the only source for a claim. Wikipedia articles must be based on reliable sources, not individual editors original research "Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.". Drsmoo (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Google books is a tertiary source. Please review the policy on that.
Are you disputing the veracity of statement which you keep trying to remove? It seems to me that you accept the statement to be true, but you think that such truth is being "abused" by keeping it in this article? Please could you explain further, as i do not understand your logic.
Anyway, if your primary goal is to establish the term Southern Levant as a strong alternative name for the region, I don't see how this sentence that you keep trying to remove makes a difference either way. Just because a term is new, doesn't devalue it as such. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
In addition to the policy on Original Research, please see Wikipedia:GOOGLE#Uses_of_search_engine_tests Raw "hit" (search result) count is a very crude measure of importance. Some unimportant subjects have many "hits", some notable ones have few or none, for reasons discussed further down this page. Hit count numbers alone can only rarely "prove" anything about notability, without further discussion of the type of hits, what's been searched for, how it was searched, and what interpretation to give the results. and A raw hit count should never be relied upon to prove notability. Attention should instead be paid to what (the books, news articles, scholarly articles, and web pages) is found, and whether they actually do demonstrate notability or non-notability, case by case. Hit counts have always been, and very likely always will remain, an extremely erroneous tool for measuring notability, and should not be considered either definitive or conclusive. While this argument is not about notability per say, I feel these policies still apply. Please feel free to open a discussion on a noticeboard regarding the use of Ngrams on Wikipedia, until then I'll seek a compromise on this article pending a decision by other editors. I hope that this will be the end of the edit-warring. Drsmoo (talk) 11:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi Drsmoo, I acknowledge your attempt at compromise, and am happy to compromise also. On your post above, where you say "While this argument is not about notability per say, I feel these policies still apply", I disagree with you. Having said that, your proposed amendments to the text appear reasonable, although I would amend your second sentence slightly to "The term Levant, which derives from the Latin verb "to rise" (levare) in reference to the sunrise in the East, has been popular in scholarly texts since the early 1600s". In addition, I don't think it fits in history, and would move the text to a new "Etymology" section. OK? Oncenawhile (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi Oncenawhile, I've removed the section, due to the unanimous consensus on the reliable sources noticeboard that use of Google N-Grams constituted original research and that they are not a reliable source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Are_Google_N-Grams_a_reliable_source.3F Drsmoo (talk) 16:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)