Talk:Southwestern United States

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[edit] suggest

I suggest moving this page to the less cumbersome title "Southwest United States". Any objections? -- Infrogmation 06:38, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaii? Really?

Never in my life have I heard Hawaii referred to as a Southwestern state - and I live in the Southwest. Certainly they do lie to the south and west, but are characteristically different from the standard qualifiers of "southwest" status - things such as hispanic heritage, pueblo Indians, weather, etc. I moved Hawaii to the "rarely included" since I can't speak for everyone on this matter, but it's obvious to me that when someone speaks of the Southwest, they're not talking about the Pacific Island culture of Hawaii. --ABQCat 19:47, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, more generally, the "widest interpretation" referred to in the figure is outrageously wide, far wider than any interpretation I have every heard, wide to the point of being bizarre. The text is somewhat less outrageous, but I would say Arkansas, Lousiana and Kansas are rarely included in the southwestern states in the the same sense that Iran is rarely included in Europe. Which is to say that they are not. They may be near the region, they may have some subtly measureable influence from, but they are not a part of the region.
The whole thing seems as though someone who had no knowledge of American cultural geography decided to make an article describing, literally, the southwestern corner of the country, rather than a cultural and historical region.
I would like to change it but don't know how to remake the map, and don't want to make the text inconsistent with the map.
Pekinensis 04:08, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
File:Map of USA highlighting Southwest.png
300px
Okay, I slapped something together. Image quality is not great at full size, but this is what I have time for. I would like to put this in the article, and change the text to match. Thoughts?
Pekinensis 17:20, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
No comments, so I've done it.
Pekinensis 22:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I like the overall changes but I have two suggestions. Oklahoma should be colored as Sometimes included on the map, because it is include in the region as much as Texas is. I also think that the removal of the Rarely included states from the map is a postive step, because there presence will only confuse people. However it is important note that the Rarely included states are someties considered part of the region either from a historical perspective or from a previous interpretaion such as is the case of the Southwestern Athletic Conference. The idea of the Southwest evolved out of this area and while Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, as well as the Eastern regions of Oklahoma (such as Little Dixie) and East Texas are best categorized as part of the Southeast today, it is important to mention that they were the first US region to be called the Southwest. This might best be accomplished in a section towards the end of the article. -JCarriker 01:44, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I am not familiar enough with Oklahoma to make any judgment on this, although I had assumed that a necessary condition for inclusion would be having once been a part of Mexico. There are many possible Southwests. I would like to step away from the page rather than get involved in the philosophical questions of definition. My time is probably better spent with the vegetable articles. Or my job. Or my wife.
Good luck.
Pekinensis 02:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page Move

According to new policy approved by Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Southwestern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. -JCarriker 10:19, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Since there seem to be no objections. I'm going through with the move. -JCarriker 08:13, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite and/or rename

This article confuses at least three areas that are or may be called the Southwest (and really should be named that instead of generically Southwestern United States). I would suggest someone knowledgeable (not me) break out the various regions from this article or at least put them in separate sections until expanded sufficiently. The suggested regions are as follows: CPret 16:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Southwest

The original Southwest consisted of those states with ties to the Confederacy but considered part of the West, not part of the South proper (Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, and Indian territory; later Oklahoma). By the latter part of the twentieth century, only Texas and Oklahoma were still considered Southwest. The territorial bands related to the development of Jazz in Kansas City were all based in this region [1], [2], [3]. Honky-tonk music also developed in this region.

The original southwest was anything west of the Mississippi, and although it is technically incorrect, at the time it was thought that the missisippi was in the geographical center of the continent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.140.110 (talk) 06:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Desert Southwest

Desert Southwest was a name given to the desert areas of the southwestern United States to differentiate it from the previous Southwest. It applied mainly the area covered by the Sonoran Desert of southern Arizona and California and by the Chihuahuan Desert of southwest Texas, southern New Mexico, and southeastern Arizona [4], [5]. It is sometimes applied to all of Arizona and New Mexico combined despite the pine forests which cover much of both states. Often the name is shortened to Southwest leading to some confusion with the other Southwest. And sometimes all four states (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Arizona) are referred to under the single title of Southwest.

[edit] Geographic southwest

The southwest geographical area of the United States is all that area south of 39 deg. 50' latitude and west of 98 deg. 35' longitude ([6] or pick your own favorite geographic center of the United States). All those states laying partially of wholly in the area might be considered part of this southwest but it is bound together by no single cultural, historical or other geographical significance.

I have no problem with the proposed rewrite, ideally it is what the article should already be, and I think you (CPret) should participate in any rewrite that takes places, there are very few people who are interested in having quaility regional articles, and even then there are over 20 regional articles. Renaming is problematic because international readers have proven they will object to similar moves in the past as Amerocentrism, perhaps unfairly, even when it is the primary usage. -JCarriker 16:20, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)


This is an good point (qualifying what is meant by the Southwest), although I would take issue with the notation that the states of the "original" Southwest (Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana particularly) were considered part of the "West" and not the South. In fact, the opposite was true...although AFTER the War between the States, with the cattle boom and all, Texas came to be considered "western" in many ways. However, the West has never been a coherent cultural region (as opposed to the South, New England, etc), but rather a part of the country largely characterized by post-bellum settlement, so therefore Texas was still considered part of the South for purposes of culture, religion, and history. Texas is simply the South's West.


Texas and Oklahoma are always counted in Southwest. It is always Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma

>>Although these four states are often grouped together as the Southwest, they are not culturally nor historically a cohesive region. Many times, it seems more done for geographic convenience than anything else. Texas (sans the El Paso area), and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma, are the western South, while Arizona and New Mexico are the southern West. Sure, there is overlap in some areas, but by and large Texas especially is cut from considerably different cloth than the twin states of the desert Southwest. TexasReb 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Texas itself is in two different regions. From what I hear, Dallas (North Texas), Houston (East Texas) and to a lesser extent Austin (Central Texas) are more similar to the South culturally, while San Antonio (South Texas, though on its northern edge) is more Southwestern. El Paso is definitely Southwestern.

Despite this inclusion of Texas into this region Texas is labeled on the Southern U.S. article as 100% Southern (or Solid red on the map). Yet states like Kentucky while they have a little Midwestern influence have to be striped, hypocricy. Louisvillian 17:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The definition of what is the "South", the "West" or the combined term "South-west" has alot to do with ones' own opinion about American regionalism or state provincialism in any given state or locality. You'll have more of a "Southwestern" identity in west Texas (i.e. Midland, Odessa, Abilene, Big Spring, San Angelo or Pecos) than in "cotton belt" east Texas (i.e. Houston, Galveston, Beaumont, Lufkin, Tyler and Texarkana). Same applies for the Cal. desert (Palm Springs area) have a deeper meaning of belonging to the "desert Southwest" than in the Central Valleys (from Bakersfield up north to Fresno, Madera or Merced). + Mike D 26 (talk) 17:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Colours and appearance

I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced

I've added an "unreferenced" tag to the page. There are several facts mentioned in the article that are without citation. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the subject can improve this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adhall (talk • contribs) 12:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] American West versus American Southwest

I'm a little unclear on the distinction between the American West and the American Southwest. But then, maybe the terms were always somewhat ambiguous in the first place. Gringo300 05:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Chiming in nearly a year later, but, yes, that's right, they are a bit ambiguous, especially the Southwest. The map has it right in that the two states that are always considered the Southwest are Arizona and New Mexico. The others, well, it's not entirely agreed upon. The American West is a broader category, stretching for most people up to the Canadian border, and divided for most into the far West (or Pacific Coast states) and the Mountain West, or Intermountain West. Not sure that makes it less confusing for you! Moncrief (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Southwestern United States

Here in the southwest they have very populaer cities. For example: Las Vegas. That is a part of one of the fastest growing cities in the USA. The west and the southwest are different because the west can be north and south! The south west is only the west south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.38.72 (talk) 01:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Good basic point. I would qualify a bit by saying that the states which are most often considered "Southwestern" (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona) are erroneously often classified as a coherent cultural region. In fact, the former and latter pairs are quite different in terms of history and culture. Texas (and to a somewhat lesser extent, Oklahoma) are "western South", while New Mexico and Arizona are "southern West", with little classically Southern about them. TexasReb (talk) 13:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oklahoma?

I'm sorry, I've lived in the west (at least according to this article; I don't consider Texas to be part of the west AT ALL, since it is in the center of the country, and has far more in common with the Southern states, and was part of the Confderacy) but I've never heard of OKLAHOMA as part of Southwest. Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah (along with California) are in my opinion almost ALWAYS included in the American Southwest. But as a westerner who lived in Arizona his whole life, I've never once outside of Wikipedia heard of Oklahoma as a "Southwestern state". It has very little in common with westerners, and far more in common with Southerners than with, say, Arizona or Colorado. Texas is debatable since El Paso is definitely southwestern, but that's only one city, so in my opinion, it shouldn't be included.

I know it doesn't necessarily mean very much, but as a 20-year resident of the Southwest, I agree with this.163.1.234.109 (talk) 02:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
As a native Texan, I definitely agree with the above. Texas is essentially a Southern state. With the exception of the trans-pecos (ala' El Paso) and parts of modern day south Texas, the state has very little in common either historically or culturally with the true Southwest or West. TexasReb (talk) 15:36, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
As a person who was born in Oklahoma but grew up in Arizona, I would say that Oklahoma is rather ambiguous to say the least. Southeastern Oklahoma (a.k.a., "Little Dixie") is definately Southern, Northeastern Oklahoma is ambiguously Southern and Midwestern (much in the same way that Missouri is) and that part of Oklahoma west of OK City is part of the West. Frederick Jackson Turner and other historians have a lot to say about the 100th Meridian (the line that separates the Texas and Oklahoma Panhandles from the main part of Oklahoma) being the location where there's a cultural break between the Western US and the rest of the country.--Bayowolf (talk) 17:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] who's entitled to the land not la raza

the southwest u.s.a. doesn't belong to the spanish or the aztecs or any other native amerindian peoples living in new spain,aka mexico.if anyone is entitled to the land it's the indigenous amerindians{native americans}who lived in that area in 1491,the year before columbus sailed to the new world under the spanish flag and set off the invasion and conquering of the western hemisphere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.190.51 (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Except that, according to Aztec lore, they came down to central Mexico from a land they called "Aztlan", which is probably New Mexico and/or Arizona.--Bayowolf (talk) 23:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Why whole states?

I noticed that for many of the pages about US regions, there are maps showing which states are regarded as part of those regions. I think it is ridiculous to constrain regions to state boundaries, and the map on this page is great for illustrating my complaint. Texas, Calif., and Nevada are striped to indicate that they are "sometimes" considered part of the Southwest, but I think whoever made the map is confusing "sometimes" with "partly." El Paso is always regarded as Southwest, but Houston never is. Las Vegas is Southwest and Reno isn't. El Centro, Calif. is certainly Southwest, but San Francisco is not. So if states should be striped at all, it should be because of being partly Southwest, not sometimes Southwest (indeed, the latter introduces a temporal element to the state of being part of the Southwest, while my proposed alternative properly changes it to a geographic consideration). So given that states can be regarded as only partly in a region, the question follows, why limit region inclusion to exact state boundaries? Can we not color only the areas of Texas, California, and Nevada that are regarded as Southwest? If the line is hazy, it stands to reason the maps could indicate this visually by graduating the boundaries. Thoughts? Soltras (talk) 00:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

From my knowledge on this geographical subject, parts of Kansas and Wyoming have a "Southwest"/"western" moniker, usually limited to the southwestern portions formally of the Republic of Texas, as well within the historical lands of New Spain until 1821 and Mexico (1821-1848). The term "Southwest" has little usage in California, since the state preferrably view itself a "West Coast" region. Be in mind Los Angeles, San Diego and the Inland Empire are originally subdesert climates, thus it would fit the description of what our pop culture sees as "Western" or "Southwest" when it comes to climatology, terrain and landscape before the arrival of mass settlement and agricultural development in So. Cal. + Mike D 26 (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
California is both a West Coast state and a Southwest state. This wouldn't be the first time a state would be considered part of two diiferent regions. Look at Georgia, it is both an East Coast state and a Southern state, one state two regions, it's pretty simple. User Soltras is correct about the map thing, it should be as he suggested.--Az81964444 (talk) 04:30, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] This article is ridiculous

West Texas is part of the southwest, Oklahoma is part of the Great Plains of the Midwest, as is Northern Texas. East Texas is part of the South and South Texas is South Texas, more part of the Midwest than the Southwest. California is in fact a southwestern state. We in Arizona, the heart of the southwest, do not consider the Great Plains as part of our home, therefore Oklahoma should be excluded as well as Texas (in my opinion). Colorado should be excluded also.

If one is to define the southwest not as whole states it would be as follows:

  • Southern California
  • All of Arizona
  • Southern Nevada
  • Southern Utah
  • All of New Mexico
  • A little bit of West Texas
  • And maybe, a little tiny bit of southwest Colorado, but only maybe.

One more thing, at the intro to this article, it clearly says the Southwest is of hot desert terrain, I have lived in Colorado and was in Northern California a month ago and they are in no way desert regions.

This page needs to be rewritten, the top part mentions all of this information about Texas which is generally not considered part of the region in the first place. --Az81964444 (talk) 04:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the page could be much improved. I know one good source that can be used, a book on the Southwest by D.W. Meinig. I'll try to rewrite the main definition with an actual reference citation. We need sources not our own opinions. The article's focus on deserts and vegetation seems strange to me. A historical-cultural focus would make more sense to me. Meinig's book takes that approach. I'm sure there are other good sources out there that can be used to improve the page. Pfly (talk) 09:55, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] A to-do list

Some articles on US regions are fairly well done and could be emulated for breaking this article out into sections (it currently has none). New England is a well organized article. Midwest isn't bad. Most are rather poor. Some ideas on sections for this page:

  • (Regional) Geography / Definitions
    • Core Southwest (eg, New Mexico and Arizona, but not strictly to state lines)
    • Core subregions (eg, Northern New Mexico; Central Arizona; Southern Corridor, El Paso and Tucson; Northern Corridor and Navajolands, etc)
    • Interregional links (eg, Las Vegas as pivotal link with southern California; Texas links in east and southeast New Mexico; links to main region of Mormon settlements; link to Midwestern Kansas agriculture etc in northeast New Mexico; etc)
  • History
    • Prehistoric era
    • Spanish era
    • Mexican era
    • American era, 19th century
    • American era, 20th century
  • Physical geography (rivers, deserts, mountains, oases, etc)
  • Geology (note mining stuff--copper, uranium, oil, gas, etc)
  • Climate
  • Demographics (population info and stats)

Other possibilities: Economy, Politics, Culture(s)

I'll at least make sections for the existing text and perhaps expand some, time permitting. Pfly (talk)

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