Talk:Spiritual gift

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Completed major edits[edit]

I've just finished making considerable revisions to the article. Here is the before and after for your convenience. In short, I rewrote the first section and renamed it "Biblical and theological overview". The original content seemed to be original research. For the list of the spiritual gifts, I rewrote the individual entries to match of with sources I had available. Hope this improved the article. Ltwin (talk) 08:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Carter and Sumrall paragraph removal[edit]

I've removed the following paragraph because it isn't sourced and doesn't really fit anywhere in the article. If a source can be found, then it could be incorporated into a future history section.

Emphasis on teaching about the nine gifts of the Spirit originated from Howard Carter, an early Pentecostal evangelist. This is based on the text from 1 Corinthians 12:27-30 giving the gifts and listing them as the "gifts of the Spirit." They were later taught and popularized by Lester Sumrall, who accompanied Carter on many missionary journeys in his youth. Some modern Bible teachers and scholars have come to the conclusion that there are other gifts of the Spirit listed in Scripture, as seen in the chart below.

Ltwin (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Problems[edit]

The article is a blob of unstructured statements that:

  • 1. makes long distinctive lists of this-and-that claiming that they're considered some kind of equal-category qualities endowed by the Holy Spirit,

I estimate, by my experience, that Apostle, Bishop, Pastor, Deacon are roles, rather than the states of mind of f.ex. Mercy and Faith, of which the later may or may not be seen as spiritual gifts, depending on denomination, but

  • 2. it claims that all these "gifts" are indiscriminately Christian,
  • 3. it uses references to claim factual statements, f.ex.
The gifts are related to both seemingly "natural" abilities and seemingly more "miraculous" abilities, but all spiritual gifts are empowered by the Holy Spirit.[1]

we must remember that the statements are religious in the religion of Christianity, and that WP:NPOV (cf. [Exodus 20:16]) require us to contextualize correctly: these guys claim that, those guys claim otherwise. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 07:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

In reference to number 1, I have no idea what "equal-category" qualities mean. These are the generally agreed spiritual gifts in Christianity. Christians believe these are given by the Holy Spirit, as the references state. "Faith" and "mercy" and the ministry gifts are listed as spiritual gifts in the New Testament and theologians are in general agreement. As the article states, this does not mean that all instances of faith or mercy showing is a spiritual gift. What it means is that there is a spiritual gift of faith and a spiritual gift of mercy. Don't see how the article can be anymore clearer or sourced any better. I'm not sure if you are saying that your opinion differs from what the article states? All I can say to that is that the article is reliably sourced. It uses Catholic, Protestant, continuationist, and cessationist sources. How exactly would you suggest we improve what you find wrong?
In reference to number 2, it does no such thing. What the article does is consider spiritual gifts. Are there religions other than Christianity that believe in "spiritual gifts"? If so, then that will have to be addressed. As of now, there doesn't seem to be a need to address another religion's concept.
In reference to number 3, WP:So fix it. Ltwin (talk) 08:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
1. cat belongs to category of animal species (just an example!), predator belongs to category of ways of eating behaviors.
2. It does. I think the text has a pentecostal perspective, indiscriminately describing pentecostal views as Christians, thereby erroneosly signalling dogmata.
3. Yeah. Good advice.
Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 08:35, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
1. I still don't understand where you are coming from. The Christian theological community is pretty uniform when it comes to the definition of spiritual gift. "Charism" in the New Catholic Encyclopedia, page 389-390, states:

Technical Usage. In its technical meaning, a charism is a spiritual gift or talent granted by God to the recipient not primarily for his own sake but for the benefit of others . . . (Eph 4.12; see also 1 Cor 14.26). Saint Paul gives it a quasi definition in 1 Cororinthian, 12.7 as a "manifestation of the Spirit for profit," i.e., for the profit of others.
Some eight lists of charisms occur more or less clearly in the New Testament: (1) Rom 12.6–8; (2) 1 Cor 12.4–10; (3) 1 Cor 12.28–31; (4) 1 Pt 4.10, and, without mention of the term, (5) 1 Cor 14.6, 13; (6) 1 Cor 14.26 and (7) Eph 4.11 as well as (8) Mk 16.17–18. Although these lists are neither uniform nor complete, it is possible to group the charisms contained in them according to similarity of function and to arrive at their probable meaning, as follows.
Various Kinds of Charisms. Teaching charisms comprise those of APOSTLES ('απόστολοι) or itinerant missionaries (Didache 11.3–6), evangelists (εύαγγελίσται; see EVANGELIST) or preachers of the gospel, prophets (προφ[symbol omitted]ται) who spoke in God's name under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and teachers (διδάσκαλοι) who instructed the Christians and catechumens...
Extraordinary or miraculous charisms embrace the gifts of healing (ἴαμα), miracles (δυνάμεις), faith (πίστις), such as would "move mountains," exorcism ('εξόρκωσις), and immunity from harm arising from deadly things such as serpents or poison. . . .

Catholicism is hardly a Pentecostal perspective. While this encyclopedia is not actually used as a source (but I plan to incorporate it though) the old Catholic Encyclopedia is used as a source. It also contains much the same list of spiritual gifts as is currently in the article.
2. Ok, then provide a source for a Christian tradition which does not include these among the spiritual gifts. There is a difference in saying that these gifts are listed as spiritual gifts in the Bible but they are not available for today. The article notes that there are Christians that believe some gifts have ceased. But even Christians who believe cessationism recognize that gifts, such as tongues, that have ceased are still spiritual gifts and were at one time present within the church, even if no longer.
For example, read Work of the Holy Spirit by Dutch Reformed minister Abraham Kuyper. When discussing spiritual gifts in Chapter XXXVII. Spiritual Gifts, he discusses the more "extraordinary" charismata along with the more ordinary ones; however, he ends "The charismata now existing in the Church are those pertaining to the ministry of the Word; the ordinary charismata of increased exercise of faith and love; those of wisdom, knowledge, and discernment of spirits; that of self-restraint; and lastly, that of healing the sick suffering from nervous and psychological diseases. The others for the present are inactive." So, even cessationists recognize these lists of spiritual gifts, even if they believe that some of them have ceased or are presently inactive. Ltwin (talk) 09:35, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Ltwin's statements reflect an understanding of the topic of the article. The comments before his, do not. History2007 (talk) 13:56, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

The following was mistakenly placed at Talk:Spiritual gift/Comments, but should have been added to this page, so moving here. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

This article comprises several versions of lists of 'Spiritual gifts', ending with some rather scattered, apparent definitions. It would do well with the development of several further sections, such as Spiritual Gifts in Church History, Spiritual Gifts in the modern Church, and others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bzehr (talkcontribs) 21:55, 1 January 2007‎

Visions[edit]

I would like to make an addition to the page to include visions as a spiritual gift. I'll come back in a week and check, and if there's no disagreement I'll make the addition. Here is what I would add:

Visions. An outpouring of this gift is prophesied in Joel 2: 28, and Acts 2:17 shows that early Christians believed this prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Visions tend to be more private experiences than the other gifts. Some researchers expand the definition of visions to include a strongly felt presence. [2] Jesse Lawrence (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ [3]
  2. ^ Kavan, Heather (2013). "A psychodynamic interpretation of gender differences in descriptions of religious visions". The International Journal of Religion and Spirituality in Society 2 (2): 77–87.