Talk:Student social organizations at the College of Wooster

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NPOV???[edit]

In particular, I find this section to be possibly NPOV:

On March 3, 1983, hazing became a crime in the state of Ohio. Over the next two decades, intentional ignorance devolved into an extreme crackdown of hazing activities, highlighted by two 1993 incidents involving the OATs and Peanuts where the school had no proof of hazing, yet told both groups that they could not take pledges, decisions later reversed by the Judicial Board. The only fraternity not known to have faced Greek Council consequeces due to pledging activities in this time span is Xi Chi Psi, and they only existed for half of the time. As a direct result of the College's crackdowns, a few greek groups have pulled their charters. This author suspects that if the college continues its crackdown on drinking games, 2-4 more frats will do the same, and the college will be left with a fraternity popluation which they have no control over.

According to the policy of Wikipedia, "this author" should be writing in an encyclopedic way that doesn't show the opinion of just one person. If there are factions of people at the College of Wooster who feel certain ways about Greek Life, the policies of the College, and/or about Ohio law, well then okay, but all of the opinions should be called out.

Also, I have some concerns about this article's tone. I would work on it, but I'm not sure changing the article would change the... agenda. There's just so much to be done here. Don't get me wrong, I love the College of Wooster, I have no issue with the folks who do Greek Life, and I learned a lot I didn't know. But it just doesn't seem like an encyclopedic article. Maybe a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy entry, which, well, that's great in its own right, but that doesn't work around here. --Jacqui M Schedler 05:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Also I might add that it would be nice to have some sourced material on this page to sort of anchor it in some hard, documented facts. Where did you get this information? --Jacqui M Schedler 05:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree tht changing the article would not change the agenda - I believe that I did just change the article to remove the agenda, and I feel that this page has a great deal of information posted that is not easily available from other sources. I believe that the changes I made make it much more of an encyclopedic history page than an agenda based page. I'd like to hear Ms. Schelder's respone to the changes made. -- Adam Koenigsberg

Actually, to my eye it looks a lot better. I don't know if the problem is completelytotally solved yet, but what you've done certainly gives me faith that it can actually be done, Adam. On the other hand, I would also like the opinion from a few people who don't go to this college. --Jacqui M Schedler 23:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

As I haven't heard Adam vouching for the article in the forum, and I believe he probably would like to, I assume he doesn't know where it is, and so I give everyone the web address for that conversation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_College_of_Wooster_Greeks#.5B.5BThe_College_of_Wooster_Greeks.5D.5D Please note that simply having the most people cheer on for the article won't save its inclusion, as Wikipedia Wikipedia:ISNOT a democracy. However, they certainly do listen to thought-out arguments over there.

As most of the verification is done, I will remove the verify tag from the article. However, I think it would be helpful if we could have author names for the book and the IS, at least. --Jacqui M Schedler 00:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link Jacqui, I'm fairly new and didn't know.--CastAStone 21:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion debate[edit]

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splashtalk 21:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations to those who have worked hard on this page, especially User:CastAStone. Now that this article has been through VfD, it's unlikely that anyone will try to delete the page again. While there wasn't a strong consensus, there certainly wasn't a widespread view that this was "college cruft," which is what I feared would happen. Now, let's keep going to continue to make this the best page it can be! --Jacquelyn Marie 21:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Linked to on The College of Wooster[edit]

Just so everyone knows, I moved the sentence which links to this article when I restructured the COW page. It is higher on page, in a (still developing) section on student life, clubs and activities. --Jacquelyn Marie 21:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Do we still need the NPOV tag?[edit]

Do we still need the NPOV tag? This article is a lot different from the way it began. If I don't hear otherwise in around a week's time that anyone else has a problem with it, I'll take the tag off. --Jacquelyn Marie 21:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Somebody else did, and they were right. --Jacquelyn Marie 00:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

AfD, part two[edit]

This article survived its 2nd AfD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The College of Wooster Greeks (2) --Jacqui 18:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


...and three[edit]

This article was nominated for deletion on 7 November, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep, no consensus. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Merge[edit]

I see no reason not to merge this with The College of Wooster. All the unverifiable stuff should be left behind, though. I know the article claims references, but I strongly suspect much of what's here isn't verifiable. Friday (talk) 02:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I would not pitch hell about a merge, but nothing in here is unverifiable - it's all stuff, from my understanding, that was referenced in the Special Collections library at Wooster. Phil Sandifer 02:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I too would be okay with a merge (though I don't see why it can't stay here). However, I was originally the person to get User:CastAStone to add sources; I believe it's all okay now. I will add this thread to his talk page, and maybe he can clarify further. Jacqui 03:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I see no reason to merge this with The College of Wooster. it is way too specific for inclusion on that page. Furthermore, it has survived 3 separate AfD sessions, with merging being dumped in favor of keeping each time. --CastAStone 00:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, the merge criteria is as follows, and I fail to see which it meets:
      • There are two or more articles on exactly the same subject.
      • There are two or more articles on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there doesn't need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
      • If an article is very short and cannot or should not be expanded terribly much, it often makes sense to merge it with an article on a broader topic.
      • If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it. --CastAStone 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I pitched the merge tag today since no one seemed to care anymore.--CastAStone|(talk) 02:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

References[edit]

I have some concerns about references. One of them, a student paper, is IMO very obviously not a reliable source. The others may be semi-reliable as far as they go, but they're very obscure. Thinking of the reader, if something is verifiable only by going to the library of a small college, that's not very verifiable at all, is it? I think we should reduce this down to currently active organizations, which (at least in theory) are easy to verify. Thoughts? Friday (talk) 18:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Friday, if you read the article at The College of Wooster, you will learn that that "student paper" is no less than an IS, which is a thesis-style project. It's Wooster's senior capstone program, which US News and World report ranks second only to Princeton's. And here is who you contact if you would like photocopies of the special collections resources -- though it will cost you something like 5 to 10 cents per copy. Jacqui 20:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems reasonably verifiable to me - at least for the subject matter in question. The history of most towns and colleges is best recorded in their own historical societies/special collections. It's the natural place to go. I think Wikipedia commits a grave error if it restricts itself to widely available verification. Phil Sandifer 19:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh - the student paper is a senior IS at Wooster? That's totally reliable - those go through vetting comparable to MA theses, and are kept on record at the library. Again, I wouldn't call them major contributions to an academic field or highly notable sources, but in terms of reliability? Absolutely. Phil Sandifer 19:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I guess the paper is not a horribly bad source like I thought before. I'll certainly accept that the College has a respected senior capstone program, but I don't think we should assume that every paper written for the program is a reliable source. So, I'm still not crazy about these sources, but maybe they'll have to do.

I wish I knew which parts of the article came from which sources- there's a lot of "rumored to", "allegedly", "accepted my most" kinds of things in here. To me this article is still poorly sourced, and thus not very verifiable. Friday (talk) 00:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The major source of 75% of the information originaly placed in the article is The Wooster Voice articles on Greek Week 1991 and 1992 published Sept 13, 1991 and Sept 11, 1992 and availible in libraries in Northeast Ohio, special collections at wooster, microfiche at wooster, and from the Wooster Voive itself. The research on the defunct fraternities was done using the Wooster Index yearbooks noted in the article. CastAStone

articles in Greek Storage[edit]

This was previously on the article itself, but is more appropriate for the talk page: "It is rumored that plenty of Pyramid supplies, including pins and composites ... plenty of Sphinx supplies, including their sorority log binders ... [and] Chi Omega Psi ... articles [are] in Greek Storage - If anyone with access to said storage can update this area, it would be appriciated." Dragonfiend 01:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't ask, don't tell "policy" and "crackdown"[edit]

The following sentence has been restored to this article: "In response to the state ban on hazing, the school's longstanding policy of don't ask-dont tell evolved into a crackdown of hazing activities." Was "Don't ask, don't tell" actually an official school policy? Can the two cases (in 1993 and 1999) since the state's 1983 ban (two cases in over two decades) be properly characterized as a "crackdown"? This sentence seems to be another example unverifiable statements and/or POV. Dragonfiend 19:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Title[edit]

If nothing else, the title still sucks. Anyone object to Fraternities and Sororities at the College of Wooster? A bit longer, but better syntax and accuracy. -R. fiend 17:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like an improvement to me. Friday (talk) 17:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I object, as properly speaking they are not fraternities and sororities, but "clubs and sections," because of active college policy against fraternities. Phil Sandifer 17:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Then how about Student social organizations at the College of Wooster? "Greeks" is way too informal for an encyclopedia, and "Wooster Greeks" sounds like the name of the college as it currently stands. If you don't like this can you offer any other suggestion? -R. fiend 17:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Student social organizations would expand to include a bunch of other stuff, but might not be unreasonable. Greek life at the College of Wooster? Phil Sandifer 17:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't necessarily oppose info on other organizations being included, if anyone cares to add them (better than another separate article, at least), and I'm still not overly fond of the use of the kinda slangy "Greek" in there. Getting better though. -R. fiend 17:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, if I don't hear an objection soon, I'm going to move this to Student social organizations at the College of Wooster, allowing other social organizations to be added, if desired (though it should be noted that most student organizations aren't primarily "social" but usually serve some other purpose). I'm still open to other titles, but would prefer them not to use the informal word "Greek" ("Unofficial fraternities and sororities..." perhaps?). -R. fiend 16:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me. When I first saw this article i assumed it refered to soem odd insittution known as the "Wooster Greeks" so the current title is misleading. DES (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Moving it now. Y'all been warned. -R. fiend 16:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Whatever improves the article.CastAStone 21:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Just joined. There is a distinct difference between general "social organizations" and the Fraternities / Sororities / Sections, in that the social organizations are generally thought to be open to the public, whereas the sections were highly privitized and functionally served no differently, at the member's point of view, than a national fraternity. Members pledged allegience to the "fraternity," not the "section," and "fraternity" was the generally accepted parlance in the early 80's, at least, when discussing the sections. In titling, it would probably be misleading to call Wooster's sections "Fraternities" and "Sororities," since that implies national recognition. However, you can't lump the Krappers or the Peanuts, for example, in the same category as the other public social organizations which generally allow participation by anyone and have no oaths of secrecy, no hazing, and no "rushing."

I think you should keep the article separate, with perhaps the change of "Fraternities and Sororities" to "Fraternal Organizations".

Thanks - BigLogs (visit http://www.kx7krappers.com for more info on the Krappers).

Vandalism?[edit]

this edit looks like it might be vandalism, but it is possible that a student society in fact used such a motto. Can anyone source this, or else source a countrary statement? DES (talk) 21:34, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't source it. All I can tell you is that the IP did not come from the College of Wooster, but that doesn't mean much, as it could be a Woo graduate or something. --Jacqui 17:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks like vandalism that occurred during winter break so students would not be in the dorms.DavidJ710 00:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

KEZ[edit]

I was a member of KEZ from 1973-76. The club was dwindling away then and probably died out by 1978. - 71.97.194.220 (moved from main page)

Phi Omega Sigma v. Beta Kappa Phi Founding[edit]

OK. Heres the deal as I understand it according to Wooster of the Middle West, The Index, and the first issues of the Wooster Voice from the 1991-92 and 1992-23 academic years.

1860s or 1870s - Ozarks form as dining group

1872 - Beta Theta Pi founds second Fraternity on Campus, most likely out of preestablished dining group, though no proof exists. First campus frat eventually dies well before ban of nationals.

1877 or 1887 depending on source - Delta Tau Delta officially colonizes Ozarks.

1912-1913 Academic year

  • Feb 1913: College decided to ban nationals.
  • March/April 1913: KKΓ decides its remaining girls will be "Peanuts" after 1913 graduation, first local organization on campus.

1913-1914 Academic year:

  • Sept/Oct 1913: Peanuts recieve recognition from college before anyone else even organizes
  • Oct 1913: Remaining Delta Tau Delta members decide that the group was local once (Ozarks), and can be local again, reorganizes as the Lizards A.K.A. Zards (Later Phi Omega Sigma)
  • January 1914: Remaining Beta Theta Pi members decide to don Green and White, rename group to the similar sounding Beta Kappa Phi.
  • January 1914: College denies recognition to Beta Kappa Phi.
  • February 1914: College grants recognition to "The Kenarden First Section Men's Social Group" (paraphrase), which was the renamed Beta Kappa Phi group.
  • March/April 1914: College grants recognition to "The Kenarden Fourth Section Men's Social Group" (paraphrase), or the Zards.

--CastAStone|(talk) 05:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

i made a change to the beta kappa phi section saying that they can allegedly trace roots back the farthest, to 1870, because in the phi omega sigma section, it says they can allegedly trace their roots back to to 1868. since both are allegedly, i took away the claim of first for the beta section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.79.107 (talk) 00:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

[this information is nowhere near correct and i challenge you to present the source that says the omegas were founded under the name of the Wizards it's the fuckings lizards get a life} - unsigned comment added by 67.163.209.212

Kappa Chi additional external links[edit]

I would like to offer for the record the history of Kappa Chi the website http://www.kx7krappers.com as a reference, specifically the history section which I researched as extensively as possible. This was the result of many e-mail conversations I had with many ex-members, only a few of whom I mention. 70.13.187.214 06:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)kmoloney@kx7krappers.com

Fair use rationale for Image:EpsilonKappaOmicronCrest.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ZetaGammaPhiCrest.jpg[edit]

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Image:ZetaGammaPhiCrest.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:KappaChiCrest.jpg[edit]

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Image:KappaChiCrest.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)