Talk:Mount Meru

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Talk:Sumeru)

Opening heading[edit]

Could the Zoroastrian Hara be included here, being as it is possible Meru and Hara originate from the same source?

"This, coupled with evidence indicating that the early Aryans resided in the arctic regions, has led many to infer that mount Meru actually refers to the north pole."

Who says the Aryans come from the arctic?! This needs to be backed up, clarified or deleted.

Khirad 06:56, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about "evidence" but the arctic region was one of the proposed original "homelands" of the Aryans before the alleged migrations to, or invasions of various places.

The idea of an arctic homeland (north pole) ties in with the 'polar' symbolism common to mountains or elevated places as a "center of the world/universe" so I would have to agree that Meru represents this type, or Idea, but to say that "Meru actually refers to the North Pole" is missing the mark (mistaking the symbolic for the physical). For references to such a Tradition or symbolism see Julius Evola and Rene Guenon.

There's a Japanese page matching this topic.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A0%88%E5%BC%A5%E5%B1%B1

How can I add it to the "In Other Languages" list? Madler 21:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone knows mount meru is Klyuchevskaya Sopka. Blavatsky talks about it, as if it were right in front of your face. Actually, it kind of is, if you rule out mount sumeru as kaliash, then you have mount meru or the 4 corners of the world as a giant volcano. Super volcanos must have been here before life though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asfd666 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Closed; merge not done at that time. Moonraker12 (talk) 20:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose merging Mount Meru (Mythology) and Sumeru, as in general the combination of articles on Hindu and Buddhist topics which happen to have similar names leads to confusion and the false assumption that the set of attributes belonging to one topic also belongs to the other. The myths about Meru and Vayu, or Meru and Agastya, have nothing to do with the Buddhist Sumeru. The Buddhist cosmology in which Sumeru corresponds to the three worlds of the Asuras, the Four Heavenly Kings, and Trayastrimsa is separate from the Hindu cosmology. Including a lot of Buddhist material in this article will drown out the distinctive character of the Hindu Meru. The same arguments go for proposals (like the one above) to combine Meru and Hara Berezaiti. They are similar concepts; but they are not the same. RandomCritic 16:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article DID introduce both Hindu and Buddhist concepts. That's why I am confused. I have removed the relevant content about Buddism from this article. But if it is not the case, i.e., if both Hindu and Buddhism use the same term of Meru (if Meru and Sumeru are interchangable in Buddhism), then we may need to establish "Meru (Hindu)" and "Meru (Buddhism)". --Neo-Jay 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree. Buddha was born Siddhārtha Gautama in Lumbini, Nepal which seems to have been on or near the edge of Vedic civilization. Arguably he as much a Hindu as Jesus was a Jew. Just as Christianity is derivative of Judaism, Buddhism derived from Hinduism, or its precursor in Siddharta's time. Of course it is also true that as Buddhism was exported away from Indic civilization it picked up other elements. For example in Tibet it acquired elements of the pre-existing Bon religion. This seems analogous to many of Christianity's "saints" actually being recycled pre-christian deities.
It is certainly important to describe how the Buddhist concept of Sumeru departs from the Hindu concept, but it seems to me that we should not overlook commonalities. I'm favor a merged article. LADave (talk) 20:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. An article which, as Sumeru does, has to start with an explanation of how it is different from another is ripe for a merger. Add the complication that sumeru is not a universal buddhist name (it is meru in Burma for example) and having two different articles is unnecessarily confusing to the reader who will benefit from having a single exposition that covers all aspects of this mythological mountain. --RegentsPark (talk) 20:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Buddhism..or for that matter Jainism was never derived from Hinduism. They are a continuation of the Shramana tradition which is different from Vedic tradition from which Hinduism is a derivative. The Jain, Buddhist and Hindu philosophy are quite different inspite of certain common concepts. I oppose any merging of these articles without proper understanding and debate.--Indian Chronicles (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whether Buddhism was or was not derived from Hinduism is not the issue. The concept of Meru is common to both Hinduism as well as Buddhism and therefore there should be one article on it. Our readers are better served when they see both the Buddhist as well as the Hindu Meru on the same article and get a chance to note the differences there, rather than presenting them separately (when they are not really separate).--RegentsPark (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've closed this; the merge was not done at that time. I've also fixed some vandalism by two IP editors who had altered other peoples comments a while ago which distorted the discussion. Moonraker12 (talk) 20:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Milky Way[edit]

The legends, puranas and Hindu epics frequently state that Surya, the sun-God, circumambulates Mount Meru every day.

Could it be that Mt. Meru is really the center of the Milky Way galaxy since science tells us that the sun revolves around the center of said galaxy? "Every day" is possibly referring to Brahma's Day? Armyrifle 02:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Link

-- 88.75.75.119 (talk) 12:10, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And isn't the Universe Jambudvipa? Gantuya eng (talk) 14:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fringe theories?[edit]

About a billion Hindus and Buddhists revere Mount Kailash as the earthly manifestation of Meru. Every year, thousands make arduous pilgrimages to walk around the mountain and/or bathe in nearby Lake Manasarovar. Originally the location of Meru may have been uncertain, however as factual geographic knowledge accumulated it became clear that the region of Mt. Kailash and Lakes Manasarovar/Rakshesh was exceptional: the hydrographic nexus of the Himalaya. This was raised to the metaphysical plane.

Given the huge number of people equating Mt. Kailash with Meru, this ought to qualify as the mainstream belief. Speculation about Aryan origins at the north pole, or locating Meru in the "Pamir Knot" are fringe theories with relatively few adherents. As the the article stands it is seriously unbalanced. LADave (talk) 20:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC

Can you find some reliable sources? That would help a lot. Dougweller (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only know of secondary references. For example Colin Thubron discusses the gravitation toward Mt. Kailash in To A Mountain in Tibet. Googling "Kailash" together with "Meru" dredges up many other references. Unfortunately nothing authoritative. Without question, Mt. Kailash is an important pilgrimage site for Hindus, Buddhists and Jains. Conceivably one could go there and survey pilgrims as to their beliefs about the mountain. LADave (talk) 17:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Mount Meru (mythology) → Mount Meru — The vast majority of the incoming links at Mount Meru refer to the sacred mountain in Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain cosmology. Mount Meru also currently redirects here. This article should therefore be recognized as the primary target for the term "Mount Meru" and the disambiguator "(mythology)" should be removed. Neelix (talk) 16:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - It makes sense. Thanks for pointing out.--Indian Chronicles (talk) 04:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Confusion[edit]

As can be seen above, I opposed the idea of merging Meru (the Hindu concept) and Sumeru (the Buddhist concept) when it was earlier proposed. Now there is an attempt to merge them again. The result is really a hash -- unrelated Buddhist mythological concepts are sandwiched between paragraphs on Hindu topics as if it's all one and the same. Whether or not Buddhism can be considered as originating in Hinduism (a semantic and terminological problem) is irrelevant if, as is the case, Hindu mythology and Buddhist mythology are today independent story and concept systems. A discussion of Buddhist ideas about Sumeru in no way clarifies or improves our understanding of what is said about Meru in Hindu religious writings, and talking about Meru in the Vedas and Puranas doesn't tell us anything about how the mythological mountain is viewed by Buddhists. That is why it is best to keep the two articles separate, using a link or a reference to redirect people who have accidentally gotten into the wrong article.
If, however, there were a consensus for merger, it cannot possibly be appropriate to do it the way that it appears in this article -- randomly dropping in chunks of text from the article on Sumeru without any attention to the appropriateness of their placing. RandomCritic (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with RandomCritic. Separate articles, and at least a decent merger proposal per Wikipedia:Merging, with arguments. Next time, also add a copy-notification please. Greetings, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:20, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal June 2013[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Closed; article was boldly merged by Nom on 8 June 2013. Moonraker12 (talk) 20:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Copied from Talk:Sumeru#Merger proposal June 2013 Proposal - I propose that Sumeru be merged into Mount Meru. I think that the content in the Sumeru article can be covered in the context of Mount Meru. The main reason for merge is of the concern of trans-language links. Wikipedia’s links are of one to one, and there is only one article in all languages other than English, the English version therefore should not keep two articles for other languages’ users to link to right English item. 216.58.66.164 (talk) 06:12, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - You mean "only one article" on Sumeru? Time to look up some sources... I'll have a look around. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:48, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like 216.58.66.164 has got a point here: [1] [2]. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:03, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support Merge Mount Meru and Sumeru are two names of same thing. Its attributes according to different religions can be described in different sections. Rahul Jain (talk) 07:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge (?) - The title of article Sumeru creates impression that Sumeru is for Buddhism and Mount Meru is for all others. Indeed, it is not true. Both names are for the same thing. Even the final result Wikipedia shall keep two articles, the proper name for Buddhist Sumeru should keep same, such as Mount Meru (Buddhist). 216.58.66.164 (talk) 15:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC) The rationale to assign name Sumeru to Buddhist cosmology and Mount Meru to Hindu cosmology needs to be properly addressed, if Wikipedia wants to keep 2 similar or same items. 216.58.66.164 (talk) 05:47, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge. Su is only an honorific modifier meaning "good", "excellent" etc. LADave (talk) 16:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Whether or not this article is merged -- from this thread, there appears to be no serious objection -- the lead paragraph needs to be better written. As of the time I write, the lead here is more concerned with providing all the names it has in various languages than explaining what it is. (I would make the necessary edits myself, but I suspect this confusion is due to nationalist POV-pushing & I'm not interested in dealing with that no-win situation. -- llywrch (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious merge. Dougweller (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - obviously. Mount Meru and Sumeru are one and same. Some Admin, please merge the page. Some major copy edits, clean-up referrencing also needed in page also. Thanks. Jethwarp (talk) 13:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - There is no reason to separate Meru from Sumeru, it's the same name and the same cosmologically-central role. We just need to have sections about its importance to Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism and w/e is appropriate (Sikhism?). Ogress smash! 23:18, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've closed this; the discussion was opened by the nominator some 30 hours after they had boldly merged the articles, so there's not n much point in leaving it open. There was one objection at the other talk page (here) but unanimous support here, so the merge was accepted. Moonraker12 (talk) 20:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More confusion[edit]

I've closed the two merge discussions on this page, as the first never came to anything, and the second took place after the Sumeru article was boldly merged into this one. However, despite that the Sumeru article is still there, and I agree with User:RandomCritic that the result is a hash. If Mount Meru occupies the same place in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain tradition, their views of it are subtly different, so it makes sense to have separate articles on those aspects of the idea, while keeping a unified page on the subject containing those things all three agree on. We've done that for Paradise, Heaven, and Hell, so it makes sense to do the same here.
I've moved the Sumeru page to Mount Meru (Buddhism), as I take the point the names are synonymous, but I suggest the Buddhist Legends section here be thinned down to a summary and the main article link changed. We could probably also do with "Mount Meru (Hinduism)" and "Mount Meru (Jainism)" pages, too. Thoughts? Moonraker12 (talk) 20:55, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Mount Meru. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:01, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

LOCATION?[edit]

Sorry but I noticed the location of the mountain was not specified in the article. Like, you know how other articles have sidebar information with all the significant information niftily placed below the main picture :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathlessmile (talk • contribs) 14:45, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deathlessmile, it doesn't seem to exist in the real world, so we can't add a location. Doug Weller talk 15:40, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; according to the religions noted in this article, Meru has a very symbolic "spiritual" meaning[1], and trying to find its location is IMHO as fringe as looking for the garden of Eden. Kortoso (talk) 21:21, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.jstor.org/stable/1062318?seq=1#page_scan_tab_content

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Mount Meru. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To add to article[edit]

To add to the article: the etymology of "meru" (Sanskrit मेरु). 173.88.241.33 (talk) 05:31, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In Buddhism[edit]

Since articles on the Buddhist Mount Meru in other languages link to this main article; this article is linked to Buddhist categories; and it mentions that Mount Meru is the centre of the universe in Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, with a section on Hinduism and Jainism, but not on Buddhism, I added a section on Buddhism that links to the separate article Mount Meru (Buddhism) accordingly. May you be well, this user (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of Rig Veda/Merv history.[edit]

The entirety of Meru is based on Rig Veda, yet no mention of this fact. Neither is there any mention of Meru as being just another name for Merv/Merw/Meru/Margiana.

Add this and keep it cool

According to the Rig Veda, Vedic Aryans migrated from Meru to invade and settle the Indo-gangetic plains, and introduced Sanskrit to the region. Margiana, also known as Merv/Merw/Meru, in Turkmenistan, is the plausible homeland of Vedic Aryans.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.190.155 (talk • contribs) 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Note: See follow-up. To avoid repitition, lets continue any discussion at Talk:Sanskrit. Abecedare (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Srunavas, Sanjay (1996). "Meru, Margiana: Homeland of Vedic Aryans". Meru, Margiana.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mount_Meru&oldid=1216490020"