Talk:Sydney Opera House

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Australia / Sydney / Music (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon Sydney Opera House is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Sydney (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Australian music (marked as High-importance).
 
Note icon
Need help improving this article? Ask a LibrarianWhat's this? at the National Library of Australia.
Note icon
The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to help@wikimedia.org.au for other editorial assistance.
WikiProject Opera (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Opera, a group writing and editing Wikipedia articles on operas, opera terminology, opera composers and librettists, singers, designers, directors and managers, companies and houses, publications and recordings. The project discussion page is a place to talk about issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Architecture (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Architecture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Architecture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Event Venues/Music task force (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Event Venues/Music task force, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles about music venues on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject World Heritage Sites (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject World Heritage Sites, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of World Heritage Sites on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Omission of the role of Peter Rice of Ove Arup[edit]

Peter Rice was THE engineer on site at the Opera House for most of the trouble-shooting period. He has his own well documented[Wikipedia Page] .

It is strange that he gets absolutely no mention on this page.

I have refrained from inserting any such edit given the level of dispute that is evident...but it still seems unfair/incomplete.

Artied (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

While he may have an article, his involvement with the Sydney Opera House is limited to one, completely unreferenced paragraph. None of that can be used unless references can be provided. --AussieLegend () 17:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

It[edit]

The intro is written in the style of a 12-year old. It has eleven sentences and seven start with "it." It seems like a list of unrelated facts. It is unaided by a sentence structure that could actually like facts together. It could use help. :) 842U (talk) 13:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I have just restructured the lead para, including moving some of the information into the Performance Venues section heading. Feel free to revert if its not an improvement I hate thinking of names (talk) 09:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Reference[edit]

Guardian Utzon Comment Any good? -- Clem Rutter (talk) 09:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Not just a comment—as stated at the end, "this is an edited extract from the book Utzon and the Sydney Opera House by Daryl Dellora, published by Penguin Specials." As an eyewitness and newspaper worker of the day in Sydney, I can confirm that this account is spot-on. It was common knowledge that the ABC (Moses) kyboshed the opera theatre to serve the interests of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra and its subscription concerts. The massive and intricate revolving stage was thus mindlessly scrapped, dooming the building to become at best a third-order purveyor of grand operatic productions. The state politics and corruption of those days was a minefield for anyone with any sort of principles. It was a woeful tragedy for Utzon, as well as for grand opera and for the people of New South Wales. Bjenks (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Bolding and / or Italicising of venue names in a list[edit]

The issue of whether the venue names can be either bolded or italicised is currently being discussed. I do not believe that the MoS supports italicising names of places or venues but I am willing to be shown otherwise. If there is something in the MoS then please provide it here so that it can be discussed and decided upon by consensus. Afterwriting (talk) 13:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I have been researching the MoS and so far the indications are that it is okay to bold the venue names in the way I have done in the article (because they are done so in a list) as per MOS:BOLD. There is no indication that I can find that it is okay to italicise them instead ~ just the opposite from my reading of MOS:ITAL. Afterwriting (talk) 13:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, when something is under discussion, the WP:STATUSQUO prevails. You don't arbitrarily decide to ignore concerns by other editors and revert to your preferred version and demand that somebody provides a MOS reference when you've made edits that don't comply with the MOS. We revert to the version prior to to the disputed edits (yours). MOS:BOLD says Do not use boldface for emphasis in article text; instead use template {{em}}, or the underlying <em>...</em> HTML markup, which render as italics in most browsers.. Also, punctuation shouldn't be inside the markup. I forget where the MOS says this but it's something that we went through at WT:TV because editors were bolding punctuation inside markup. I agree with Machina.sapiens here when he says On re-reading the MOS, I see that WP doesn't really want bolding used in this kind of situation, but I think it helps readability to have the venue names picked out in some way - so what would you think of italicising the venue names instead? Italics are what the MOS says. Wher in the MOS do you claim that it says bolding is appropriate? --AussieLegend () 13:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
According to the MoS bolding is acceptable in lists and this is common practice in most articles. What we have here is a list. Where in the MoS does it say it is okay to italicise the names of things such as venues? Probably nowhere but I'm open to your evidence otherwise. Afterwriting (talk) 14:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Afterwriting Again, when your edits are disputed, as they have been, we revert to the status quo. You've received an edit-warring warning and chosen to edit-war after that, so there's a case for an AN3 report, unless you revert your last revert. I've presented you with a link to the MOS and a quote from it. You have not, despite my request, so your claim is unsupported. Bolding is appropriate in some cases, such as definition lists, which is not the case here. The example used by the MOS is Glossary of the American trucking industry, which is not the type of list used here. In this case we aren't listing terms per say, we're merely emphasising names. Note that you have not provided justification for bolding punctuation. --AussieLegend () 14:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
FYI User:AussieLegend:
From the Manual of Style at MOS:TITLEQUOTES in the "Neither" section:
"There are a few cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks (though many are capitalized): .... Names of buildings."
Afterwriting (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
That is about the building, not spaces within the building. As Machina.sapiens has explained, we're trying to emphasise the name of spaces within the building. Emphasis is correctly done with italics, per MOS:BOLD. --AussieLegend () 14:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I suggest that (contrary to AussieLegend above) MOS:DEFLIST (definitions lists) does apply, and that semicolon-colon should be used rather than direct bold markup. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:18, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Did you look at the definition list example? The content isn't being uses as a defintion list, it's being used simply to emphasise the names, and regardless, the punctuation should not be bolded. Semicolon-colon markup would result in a messy section compared to what should be there now:
The Sydney Opera House includes a number of performance venues:
The Concert Hall 
With 2,679 seats, the home of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra and used by a large number of other concert presenters. It contains the Sydney Opera House Grand Organ, the largest mechanical tracker action organ in the world, with over 10,000 pipes.[citation needed]
The Joan Sutherland Theatre 
A proscenium theatre with 1,507 seats,[1] the Sydney home of Opera Australia and The Australian Ballet. Until 16 October 2012 it was known as the Opera Theatre.[2]
The Drama Theatre 
A proscenium theatre with 544 seats, used by the Sydney Theatre Company and other dance and theatrical presenters.
The Playhouse 
An end-stage theatre with 398 seats.
The Studio 
A flexible space with a maximum capacity of 400, depending on configuration.
The Utzon Room 
A small multi-purpose venue, seating up to 210.
The Forecourt 
A flexible open-air venue with a wide range of configuration options, including the possibility of utilising the Monumental Steps as audience seating, used for a range of community events and major outdoor performances. The Forecourt will be closed to visitors and performances in 2011–2014 to construct a new entrance tunnel to a rebuilt loading dock for the Joan Sutherland Theatre.
That's not as neat as:
The Sydney Opera House includes a number of performance venues:
  • The Concert Hall With 2,679 seats, the home of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra and used by a large number of other concert presenters. It contains the Sydney Opera House Grand Organ, the largest mechanical tracker action organ in the world, with over 10,000 pipes.[citation needed]
  • The Joan Sutherland Theatre A proscenium theatre with 1,507 seats,[1] the Sydney home of Opera Australia and The Australian Ballet. Until 16 October 2012 it was known as the Opera Theatre.[2]
  • The Drama Theatre A proscenium theatre with 544 seats, used by the Sydney Theatre Company and other dance and theatrical presenters.
  • The Playhouse An end-stage theatre with 398 seats.
  • The Studio A flexible space with a maximum capacity of 400, depending on configuration.
  • The Utzon Room A small multi-purpose venue, seating up to 210.
  • The Forecourt A flexible open-air venue with a wide range of configuration options, including the possibility of utilising the Monumental Steps as audience seating, used for a range of community events and major outdoor performances. The Forecourt will be closed to visitors and performances in 2011–2014 to construct a new entrance tunnel to a rebuilt loading dock for the Joan Sutherland Theatre.
We're not out to draw excessive attention to the spaces, just to emphasise their names. And, of course, MOS:ACCESS says Do not make pseudo-headings using bold or semicolon markup. Screen readers and other machines can only use correctly formatted headings. --AussieLegend () 09:40, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
According to the Australian Manual of Style, the names of the spaces (Concert Hall, etc) are being used here as "run-on headings" (where the heading appears on the same line rather than above its content - a more compact form suitable for short content, which is the situation here). The MoS does not appear to discuss this particular type of heading (or at least I could not find it!) but, as headings, I think they should be bold rather than italic (as that is the WP style). Certainly if the associated content were to grow, we would almost certainly explode them into true headings and subsections. Aside, if these spaces were presented as subsections (with actual headings) rather than a bullet list, it would enable other articles to link to specific spaces in the building. E.g. The New Crystal Silence is one of many articles that talks about a performance in the concert hall but can only link to the Opera House article. I didn't do searches for the other spaces but I would assume a lot of the larger ones would get mentioned in many other articles. Indeed, some of the larger spaces are probably notable in their own right as they are likely to be performance venues for world premieres and other such events. Kerry (talk) 21:35, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, User:Kerry Raymond, for your considered comments. The MoS is quite clear that the names of buildings (and, by logical inference, the names of any particular parts of buildings) should not be italicised for emphasis. There is not, therefore, any valid MoS reason to italicise the names of specific venues within the opera house for emphasis. As to whether they can or should be in bold in some form of list then I am open to persuasion and your comments and suggestions are very sensible. Afterwriting (talk) 01:52, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of whether the names are bolded or italicised, the names should be the actual name of the space. Afterwriting has arbitrarily decided that "The" is part of the name when the Sydney Opera House website excludes this from all of the names.[1] And, of course, the colons added by Afterwriting should neither be bolded or italicised. --AussieLegend () 16:27, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
While being slightly nervous about putting my toe back in this pool :-), I have been checking out how other PAC articles have actually Listed the component venues.
egJohn F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, Barbican Centre, Arts Centre Melbourne, Overture Center for the Arts, Southbank Centre, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts
There's not a standard Way, but almost all do provide a List, and in almost every case, the venue names are bolded in the style of a headword (unless they're wikilinked) - either just bolded manually in-line, with or without bullets, or made into a heading.
Having thought about this a bit, I think there's case for making the list a subheading/body list, rather than what I would call an elaborated List, where the headword is just inline, with a few explanatory words, as it currently is in the SOH article. The venues which compose a PAC are of course a critical part of its description, and it might be useful, as User:Kerry Raymond points out, to go into some more depth (for the major spaces at least) in such a list, without breaking its Listiness. (It would seem that the Glossary template could possibly legitimately be used for this sort of List, although it's obviously not a Glossary. MOS talks about using it for "terms and definitions, metadata topics and values, questions and answers, or any other groups of name–value data", (and also almost-deprecates the ;/: method)). That would give us something like the KenCen version (although that's done with actual subheadings, of course). I'd be happy with any of those options, or indeed the original version, which just manually bolded the venue names in a simple list, but I'm beginning to change my mind and think that a heading/body list might be better - for future development. Machina.sapiens (talk) 03:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)