|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- Articles merged: for previous discussion, see Talk:Rank (botany).
a) the ending "-odd" is, well, odd and almost certainly wrong (I never saw it before)
- Don't know about botanical infrafamilies, but in zoology tribes and infrafamilies are distinct. And, yes, the ending is -odd and I've supplied the reference. I suspect someone realised they were running out of Latin/Greek terminations and decided it would be cool to form them from Welsh or something. Gnostrat (talk) 16:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Cleanup required: Table of terms in various languages
- I'm not really sure what you mean by that question. These ranks (some of them anyway) are used in English-language taxonomic literature as well as in Wikipedia classifications and taxoboxes. Why shouldn't an article about them include a table? All the same, on English Wikipedia there's no need for them to be listed in any languages except Latin and English.
- I'm more worried about all these unsourced intercalary terms — midkingdom, interkingdom, claudius, etc. Over at Linnaean taxonomy I've been meticulously building up a table of ranks based on cited sources and there are major discrepancies between that table and this one, which is particularly frustrating when I would like to merge that section of Linnaean taxonomy into this article. I doubt that I've got all the details right on the other article (if only because I've put it together from a patchwork of sources for want of a single source which has the joined-up picture) but it would be useful to have some citations for the ranks here so as to pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses of each table.
- A further problem with this article is the inclusion of bacteriological terms like serotype or serovar, biovar etc. If you consult the relevant articles, it is evident that these are not taxonomic ranks but different kinds of grouping at the same rank, in other words, different ways of defining a subspecies. I would delete the lot but I don't have the expertise to know whether there are some actual ranks mixed in among them.
- In short, I recommend (a) citations and (b) calling in the experts. Gnostrat (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- But first things first. Looks like removing the unnecessary non-English columns won't be controversial and would need doing eventually, so I've done it. Next, the English could be improved while we're waiting for somebody to verify these ranks. Gnostrat (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm proposing that the Taxonomic ranks section of Linnaean taxonomy be merged in. Listing all the ranks in the latter article is an exercise in the superfluous. Once the discrepancies between that list and the one in this article have been ironed out, the full table can be consolidated here and, perhaps, replaced in Linnaean taxonomy with a simple summary of the main ranks. This would prepare a shorter and more manageable Linnaean taxonomy for eventual merger with Scientific classification. I am hoping the merge template will also attract some notice to the need for expert attention over here.
I can't see any need for maintaining separate short articles for the zoological and botanical ranks, either. The two systems have far more in common than divides them, some material appears in both articles, and they are better treated together for comparison. (The articles are misleadingly titled as well, since the botanical system is also used in mycology and the zoological one also applies to protozoa.) So I may be bold and merge those in even sooner. Gnostrat (talk) 04:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me be bolder: why not merge Taxonomic ranks, Linnaean taxonomy and Biological classification? They all are part of the same topics, arn't they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- If memory serves, this article contains material that was moved from the other two as they were overlong and cluttered. We had long and involved discussions about which articles to merge with which: see Talk:Biological classification#Two Proposed Changes and the two sections which follow that. Linnaean taxonomy is not the same as biological classification: it is one system of biological classification, and alternatives have been proposed, so it's probably best maintained as a separate article (like Cladistics, which can be applied within a Linnaean hierarchy of ranks but can also treat them as irrelevant). Gnostrat (talk) 00:59, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
"usable only in a realm of fiction"
I'm concerned that the wording "usable only in a realm of fiction" is not encyclopedic. It drips with contempt; an encyclopedia should be 10 times drier. Surely there's a more moderately worded way of getting that point across? I don't understand how it doesn't show the relative positions of many ranks used currently. I see many taxonomic ranks, and the realative positions make sense to me. What is the problem, exactly? -GTBacchus(talk) 17:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree that "usable only in a realm of fiction" is not particular encyclopedic. However as descriptions go, it is dry as bone. The other wording "The following is a synthesis, from most general to most specific, of many categories that are in current use. Such a list is never used for any practical purpose, as different ranks are used in different areas of biology, in ways that are not always compatible across the board." is even less encyclopedic, its main problem is that it not nearly accurate.
- I guess that the basic problem is that the list itself is unencyclopedic (as well as inaccurate). It presents a new synthesis, not found Out There, which is just what WP:NOR forbids: "any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments." - Dendrid (talk) 15:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to know how, if you're going to list these ranks at all in a joined-up, coherent way, can you not do synthesis? Presumably, you'd go to one single comprehensive source that lists every rank that's ever been invented and just follow that. And as far as I know, there isn't one. Nor is the hierarchy Out There in the shape of a complete formal classification of any organism, but it never has been. If you're working with "protists", you have classes floating around without phyla or kingdoms to put them in. If it's velvet worms, you don't have classes, or orders either.
- As the editor largely responsible for putting this synthesis together, I don't see the problem. It's a table of ranks that are available for potential use. There are no opinions or arguments. There is no one "position" that is advanced. The interrelationship of the ranks and their usage are described as I found them in the sources. Where the usages vary or contradict, or where different sources/disciplines apply different ranking systems in parallel, I've acknowledged it in the notes. I haven't harmonized or artificially ironed out the mess. In fact I've been so scrupulous about it that I've faithfully followed the sources even where I believe they are wrong.
- For example, the whole sequence inserted between order and suborder is counter-intuitive and makes no sense to me in that position. (I strongly suspect it belongs between the infraorder and the family group.) But that's the way it is in the ornithischian classification that I reference, and you can probably blame it on certain cavalier schools of cladists, since they are not above inserting cohorts inside orders and classes inside families, to the consternation of anybody who expects the Linnaean hierarchy to actually convey meaningful information.
- Yes, it's a synthesis but it isn't original research, because it doesn't interpret the sources and it doesn't advance a position. I'm more worried, and not a little intrigued, by that enigmatic comment about its inaccuracy. Apart from the example I've just mentioned, would you like to elaborate? Gnostrat (talk) 01:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was looking at the box of Taxonomic Ranks on Tribe, and it had one that said "Alliance." I clicked on it and was redirected here, with no mention of "Alliance" anywhere on the page or on this talk page. What does that mean? Floppybelly (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC).
'sub-' vs 'infra'
I'm an interested amateur, but not trained in this field. In copy-editing Theraphosidae, I became aware of a conflict between the term relating it to Mygalomorphae (sub-order) and infraorder as used in the top section of Dipluridae. Can I ask whether someone with the necessary education/expertise can sort this one out, please. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- The problem is that trained biologists don't know where terms like "infraorder" are coming from, and Wikipedia doesn't define them. Wiktionary definitions sound spurious. "Infra" is used to mean "within", so "infrageneric" doesn't mean at the rank of "infragenus", it means at any rank lower than genus.Nadiatalent (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Correction, I see that infra and parv are defined in the zoological code. This is clearly a major confusion between zoological and botanical codes. "Infrageneric" in the botanical code, means any subdivision of a genus, "infraspecific" means any subdivision of a species, etc. No wonder the Biocode effort floundered! Nadiatalent (talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Is "alliance" a taxonomic rank? I see it on this template after subtribe but before genus. This is not mentioned in the taxonomic rank list on this article. If it is a rank, it should be added to this article. If not it should be taken off the template. Kittenono (talk) 22:12, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've taken it out, but there are more problems than just this one. I've commented about "infra" above, and a bit more at Template talk:Taxonomic ranks. The problem seems to be widespread within Wikipedia and Wiktionary. I'd like to see these pages trimmed to just the ranks that are recognized in the botanical, zoological, and bacteriological codes of nomenclature! Nadiatalent (talk) 02:08, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have often heard the term "alliance" used in discussions of orchids, and it appears on the Taxonomy of the Orchidaceae page extensively, as well as in numerous taxoboxes for orchids; in this context, it seems to be a rank between subtribe and genus, as the taxonomic rank template formerly indicated. Some quick Googling dug up an article that appears to use the term in the context of genetic studies within the Orchidaceae: []. I worry that the removal of alliances from the template may have been premature. Does anyone know of other plant families that have "alliances" as well? Nighthawk4211 (talk) 21:50, 31 August 2011 (UTC)