Talk:Ten Commandments

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Former good article nominee Ten Commandments was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Good Article Nominee (GAN)[edit]

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by Telpardec (talkcontribs) 19:15, 24 December 2011‎ (UTC)

Punishments???[edit]

What was/are the punishments for the 10 Commandments??? I know the Levites extrapolated them into 600+ new laws. Or, are there places in _The Holy Bible_ where there are specific punishments outlined for each offense??? Is it a one way ticket to hell??? Does confessing your sin/s to Jesus pursuant to 1John1:9 cover it??? What??? People come to Wikipedia for answers.User:JCHeverly 15:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

The answer is in the second paragraph of this section: Ten Commandments#Religious interpretations. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 15:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Your assertion that "the Levites extrapolated them into 600+ new laws" is itself an interpretation; it seems to follow the documentary hypothesis. The Jewish view is that all 613 commandments were given by God to Moses during his 40 days on Mount Sinai.
When you say "seems to follow the doucemtary hypothesis", that is to say that it follow the current consences views of expoerts (which the DH is), yes? And when you say "the Jewish view is that..", that is say that the view of tiny, tiny minorotiy, yes? We must keep these things in perspective, because WP is supposed to refect the concensis of scholors, not the view of tiny minorities. Steve kap (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Wait a moment. The "documentary hypothesis" says that the 10C as we now have them are late. That is scarcely compatible with the view that, at one stage, they stood alone and that the mass of detailed Biblical legislation including the punishment provisions is a later "extrapolation" by the Levites. Could any workable legal system in the world consist solely of ten ethical principles, with no legislative detail and no means of enforcement? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 17:30, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
As for punishment, the Jewish view is that a number of commandments carry the death penalty (as elaborated in Exodus 22, Leviticus 18, Numbers 15 etc), while others are not punishable by earthly courts. JFW | T@lk 18:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


  • Thanks. I will study Leviticus and Numbers.User:JCHeverly 23:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Probably the most correct answer is that the 10C are just broad principles and don't specify punishments, but elsewhere in the Old Testament, especially Deuteronomy, crimes are defined more precisely and punishments are specified. A lot of sources compare the 10C to a legal constitution, which is fleshed out by legislation and case law. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
  • The only punishment that is even mentioned generally is for idol worship and God basically says that HE will not only punish the heathen/pagan, but he will punish at least three successive generations. Perhaps that is the point, if one chooses to disobey God and not keep HIS commandments, the offender's soul will be tormented in perpetuity in the after life.User:JCHeverly 12:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Judaism is actually pretty unconcerned with an afterlife, though not completely. The Old Testament doesn't have much to say about it, and what it says isn't entirely consistent, but the gist is the famous passage from Genesis, "you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Shades of Sheol is a thorough source about this. The idea of eternal punishment or reward in the afterlife is mostly a feature of Christianity and Islam. BTW, talk pages are for discussing changes to the article, not general discussion of the topic; see WP:TALK. Are you looking for information to add to the article? —Ben Kovitz (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
  • True Believers on the Name and Trusters in the Blood of the Anointed Savior are concerned about the afterlife and/or the second death which is the lake of burning sulfur. Well, aside from the Levitical laws there don't seem to be specific punishments assigned to breaking the law. I was curious to know what they were and it seems that there were not. Always trying to make the project better. People look to Wikipedia for answers, that's all.User:JCHeverly 21:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually, nearly every one of them has a punishment, and it's nearly always death, usually by stoning. Remember the sabath, stone a man for gathering sticks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.52.251 (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Forgot your signature. If it is true that stoning was a punishment proscribed by God, not the Levites. It should be added. I have not found it anywhere in my research. Once again, I look to Wikipedia for answers.User:JCHeverly 17:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Just about every source on the 10C that I've looked at says they don't specify punishments because they're just a statement of principles. So, a description of punishments probably doesn't belong in this article. You might look at Jewish Law, Deuteronomic Code, and http://halachipedia.com/index.php?search=Punishment. Deut. 21:18–21 specifies stoning for a certain kind of failure to respect mother and father; Rashi's commentary is here. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf. This will take you to a list of the punishments that go along with the 10c. Do your sources claim they don't exist? Shall we cut them out of the bible? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.52.251 (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Forgot to sign your name. The only source I have is _The Holy Bible_, aka Jesus Christ in his character as Logos, aka The Word. I consult it when I have a question. I could not find any punishments for all of Israel, not just the Tribe of Levi. So, I am thinking Sheol was the punishment. Literally, thank you, God for the Anointed Savior. The General Epistle to the Church at Galatia, Chapter . . . "3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." . . sums my point of view nicely.User:JCHeverly 19:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Talk pages are not for discussing your point of view; see WP:TALK#How to use article talk pages and WP:NOTFORUM. Please take this discussion to some other Internet forum. Wikipedia is not the place for it. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 23:17, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Here, here. Quite right.User:JCHeverly 06:20, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

When Moses came down the mountain he had 3000 of his people killed for breaking the no-other-gods commandment. And Elijah had 450 priests of other religions killed. The punishment for almost anything in the Tanakh is death, including the commandments in the decalogue (btw only the one in exodus 34 made it into the ark of the covenant). The instructions for punishment are littered all over the Tanakh. Unfortunately this article features no ethical analysis and says nothing about the utter moral bankruptcy of the ideology expressed in the various decalogues and in the actions of the characters in the surrounding texts. ♆ CUSH ♆ 18:54, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The 10C's themselves don't specify any punishment, but Moses said the punishment was death, and that was the punishment meted out more than once. I think it's entirely appropriate to have a section on stoning as punishment. The idea of going to Hell came later, under Greek influence.

Picture of Exodus/Deuteronomy differences[edit]

I deleted a picture posted by Wuschelkopf, showing the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions of the 10C, in Hebrew and closely juxtaposed to highlight exactly where the two versions diverge. Wuschelkopf asked if there is a way to improve the picture. I don't see much hope, but I thought I'd reply here in case anyone else has a better idea. The pic is a lot of text, in Hebrew and too small to read. We already have a big table with English translations of all the 10C, with the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions in adjacent columns. The sources don't seem to give these differences anywhere near the kind of prominence that a readable picture would give them in this article. So, I don't think that any version of this pic, no matter how much improved, would add anything but clutter. Maybe it could provide value on the Hebrew Wikipedia. —Ben Kovitz (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


English version used in this table[edit]

!Main article !| Exodus 20:1-17 !| Deuteronomy 5:4-21 |- style="vertical-align: top;" | — | — | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | — | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | — | style="background:#cef2e0;"| (1) | I am the Lord thy God | 2 [1] | 6 [2] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | Thou shalt have no other gods before me | 3[3] | 7[4] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 1 | — | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image | 4–6[5] | 8–10[6] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 2 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain | 7[7] | 11[8] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 3 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy | 8–11[9] | 12–15[10] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 4 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | Honour thy father and thy mother | 12[11] | 16[12] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 5 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | Thou shalt not kill | 13[13] | 17[14] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 6 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | Thou shalt not commit adultery | 14[15] | 18[16] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 7 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | Thou shalt not steal | 15[17] | 19[18] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#cedff2;"| 8 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour | 16[19] | 20[20] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's house) | 17a[21] | 21b[22] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#ddcef2;"| 9 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's wife) | 17b[23] | 21a[24] |- style="vertical-align: top;" | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | style="background:#cef2e0;"| 10 | Thou shalt not covet (neighbor's servants, animals, or anything else) | 17c[25] | 21c[26] |}

  • All scripture quotes above are from the English Standard Version. Click on verses at top of columns for other versions.


    • The ESV does not use thou so it can not be the version quoted Skippypeanuts (talk) 19:04, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Skippypeanuts I am unsure why you have posted this. Please clarify. JFW | T@lk 20:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


If you look at the page the text that is in the table uses "thou" Skippypeanuts (talk) 20:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC) I guess the esv is in the footnotes, but the text in the table is not and I would think that people would think the article saying "* All scripture quotes above are from the English Standard Version. Click on verses at top of columns for other versions." is what is reference in the table and not the links Skippypeanuts (talk) 20:25, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Written vs Spoken[edit]

I made a small edit, changing from 'THE story in Exodus (says the 10C were written by god' to 'A story in Exudus (says the the 10C were written by god. The reason for the edit, that I noted, was that ANOTHER story in Exudos clearly has the 10C SPOKEN by god. The edits were reverted, without comment, bu JFDWolf. JFD, can you tell me your reasons for reverting? Do you not know the verse that I'm ref to? Also, in future, do be so kind as to state your reasons for edits, as I did, and as WP policy would have you. It gets the conversations going so much easier when you state whats on your mind. Steve kap (talk) 22:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC) (sorry for the formating error, the text below. I can't seem to fix it. If anyone else can, I'd be greatful SK)

The reasons are exactly the same as before. Have a lovely day. JFW | T@lk 13:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't recall ever having this discussion, and in any case if it was discussed, must have been a great while ago, and there is no telling if people would come to the same consensus now ( or even if we ever came to one then). Times change, people change, the state of public knowledge changes...

So...I ask again, what were your reasons for reverting? (Thanks for the kind wishes, I hope your day is lovely as well) Steve kap (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

we'll if I must play both end of the chessboard, ill try my Brest. From other arguments presented, I think the idea is that there is an undefined group called Traditionalist, for whom I gather JFDW is a spokesman. Now, even thu experts in the field generally agree that the books of the bible contain several versions of the same story, this cuts no ice with the Traditionalist. And,when anyone can plainly read one story of Exudus having the 10c spoken by god , and another written in stone, none the less ,the Traditionalist prefer to see only one story. How they come to this conclusion is widely unknown, because the Tradtionaists, because of bias it's against there view ( they are seen as uncool), find it hard to get published. Is that about it? If not, please, let's have it from you. Steve kap (talk) 03:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
So, that's it then, I take it. For the other side, I'd say that it's not much debated these days (that is, by scholars, we put religius zealots to one size for this type of thing) that the Old Testament was written by piling together different stories, from related but varying traditions. So, we see versions versions of the same story next to eachother. And, specifically, that exodus 20, where the 10c were SPOKEN by god, and Ex 34, where they are written in stone by god or Moses are two different stories, by two different authors. Therefore, it would be wrong to ref to THE story in ex, as if there was only one. It should be A story, not THE story.Steve kap (talk) 04:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
  2. ^ “‘I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
  3. ^ “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4. ^ “‘You shall have no other gods before me.
  5. ^ “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
  6. ^ “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
  7. ^ “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
  8. ^ “‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
  9. ^ “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
  10. ^ “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
  11. ^ “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
  12. ^ “‘Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
  13. ^ “You shall not murder.
  14. ^ “‘You shall not murder.
  15. ^ “You shall not commit adultery.
  16. ^ “‘And you shall not commit adultery.
  17. ^ “You shall not steal.
  18. ^ “‘And you shall not steal.
  19. ^ “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  20. ^ “‘And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  21. ^ “You shall not covet your neighbor's house;
  22. ^ “‘And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field,
  23. ^ “you shall not covet your neighbor's wife,
  24. ^ “‘And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
  25. ^ “or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
  26. ^ “or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.’