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In the Holy Roman Empire
Was the Livonian Confederation (and for that matter, the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights) actually IN the Holy Roman Empire? Most sources I have seen point to no, just wondering if there is any sources that say whether or not these nations actually WERE in the HRE. Rcduggan (talk) 00:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
This is to Albert Krantz regarding the map of Livonian Confederation. Please note that it's one thing that meant Livonia in the 16th century and another what it is today on Wikipedia. And on wikipedia this is a map of Livonian Confederation, not Livonia. As Livonia in the 21st century on WP can mean anything from the land of indigenous Livonian people - Livonia up to Livonia, a province of Russian empire etc. If you'd click on the link Livonia, it would be possible to find out all the different meanings that Livonia can have. there is something called wikifying that keeps articles organized and that is the reason this map should link to Livonian Confederation. --Termer (talk) 02:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- possibly it will be better to discuss this question on the Livonia talk page. Termer, I do agree that the borders of Livonia were changing during the centuries. But until the second half of the XVII century cartographers considered Courland and Estonia parts of Livonia, not separate regions. In the article Livonian Confederation we are talking about period of time from the 13th to the 16th centuries. There is no good reason to modernize the XVI century concept of Livonia.
- Ivan IV was Tsar of Russia. But he was not Tsar of that Russia which it is today on Wikipedia. Nicholas II was also Tsar of Russia, and again not of that Russia which it is today on Wikipedia. We have an article Treaties of Tilsit, but currently the article Tilsit is called Sovetsk, Kaliningrad Oblast. Should we move Treaties of Tilsit to Treaties of Sovetsk, Kaliningrad Oblast?
- On this map Portantius wanted to represent Livonia as it was in 1573, when there was no more Livonian Confederation, and the description you offered gives this map a concept that Portantius had never have. I believe that the description “Livonia as shown on the map of 1573 of Joann Portantius” is perfectly fine and correct.
- I've shown below how the concept of Livonia was changing. Note, that all these cartographers wanted to represent Livonia of their times, not Livonian Confederation of the past. — Albert Krantz ¿? 05:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC).
- Nice maps! just that these for the most part are inaccurate and that is not surprising for the times. After the Livonian war Livonian Confederation was divided between Sweden and Poland/Lithuania. In 1561-2 the Livonian Confederation was split into 3 separate regions between 2 different countries: Swedish Estonia and Polish Duchy of Livonia + Duchy of Courland and Semigallia. Therefore yes, for the most part these maps represent the Livonian Confederation of the past, not 'Livonia of their times'. By the Treaty of Oliva the Duchy of Livonia became a part of Sweden. But unlike the old maps show according to XVII century cartographers of the "Livonia", the territories remained split as separate regions between Swedish Livonia and Swedish Estonia. These are the facts, the old maps are nice drawings but not in sync with the contemporary conventional history. Therefore the map for WP purposes in the article is still of the Livonian Confederation, sometimes also referred to as Old Livonia by historians nowadays. --Termer (talk) 03:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- It is unnecessary to relate history of the Baltic lands here. Livonia is not a political region. Alt-Livland is surely can not be native name of Livonian Confederation. For the German knights Livonia was modern. It is just a modern German name. And as I already said, all this maps referred not to the time of the Livonian Confederation. Endre Bojtár writes that not Livonian Confederation itself, but the territory of Livonian Confederation referred to as Old Livonia. — Albert Krantz ¿? 16:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Albert but I just didn't get it. First of all the article here is about history of "Baltic lands", literally. And for second the name "Livonian Confederation" has been only used by modern historians exactly like "Old Livonia". "Livonian Confederation" or "Old Livonia" is a modern English name as Alt-Livonia is a modern German, one of the native names to this former country. But in case you were after the original native name, thats fine. Provintz Lyfflandt was used by Balthasar Russow in his Livonian Chronicle from the 16th century.--Termer (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- 1. This article is surely about history of Baltic lands, but it is better to read historical books, do you understand? 2. Okay, Provintz Lyfflandt was used by Balthasar Rüssow. Rüssow spoke Low German. So Lyfflandt is a Low German name for Livonia. Good. But let's not to mix the name of the territory and the name of the state that was on this territory. Livonian Confederation is not name of the territory, not name of the land, it is the name of the state. And Province Livonia is not the name of the state, it is name of the territory. Provintz Lyfflandt (Province Livonia) ≠ Livonian Confederation. Rüssow's Chronicle continues not only to 1561, the last year of Livonian Confederation, but for longer. The names "Livonian Confederation" and "Old Livonia" are not interchangeable. I have look through Ralph Tuchtenhagen's "Geschichte der baltischen Länder", he uses both names. But livländische Konföderation he uses only for the state and Alt-Livland only for the territory, so this two names are not interchangeable. This is my point. — Albert Krantz ¿?. —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"Livonian Confederation" and "Old Livonia" are not interchangeable? And "Old Livonia" is not used for the state but just the territory? You can't be serious, there are enough historians who are using "Old Livonia" to denote the state thats also called "Livonian Confederation" nowadays:
- medieval Old Livonian state by Dr. Toivo Miljan Professor Emeritus; Sir Wilfred Laurier University, Canada. Historical Dictionary of Estonia
- "Old Livonia " as this medieval State is called by Evald Uustalu, the University of Michigan: The History of Estonian People.
- the state structure of Old Livonia collapsed] By Jean-Jacques Subrenat, A. Bertriko, David Cousins, Alexander Harding, Richard C. Waterhouse; Estonia: Identity and Independence
Saying that Old Livonia can be used just for the territory, not the state would be like saying, Germany can be used just for territory, not for the state.
Now, in fact the "Livonian Confederation" didn't exist before 1418 , therefore actually Old Livonia would be much more accurate title for the article since William of Modena didn't create any confederations, just divided the lands between the Church and the Order. etc. also I regret that you have chosen to insist calling the map of Livonia that shows borders that didn't exist in 1573.
Since I think all your reverts have been unreasonable, but I'm not willing to get dragged into an edit war, I need to tag the article accordingly for now. thanks!--Termer (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, here is the deal, since Livonian Confederation was only formed in the 15th century, but we still need an article that would cover the history for the period from after the Livonian Crusade up to Livonian War, and since this article has been fulfilling the purpose, it would need a new and appropriate name. If we go with the pattern, Polish Livonia, Swedish Livonia this article should be called either German Livonia 23 returns at google books or Teutonic Livonia 4 returns at googe books or also a bit ambiguous Old Livonia has been used by historians -138 returns at google books. The bottom line, there were 3 major periods in the history of Old-Teutonic-German Livonia. The era of Swordbrothers, the era of Ordenstaat after the Swordbrothers were merged with Teutonic Order, and finally the era of Livonian Confedertaion after the 1410 Battle of Grunwald the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order , the Livonian Order continued de facto rule in Livonia independently and more in cooperation with local Prince Bishops by signing the confederation agreement. Any comments and thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 21:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
- "German Livonia", despite the parallels with "Polish Livonia", "Swedish Livonia", is—to the best of my knowledge—a neologism. Nevertheless, you are right that a better name could be found for this article. Old Livonia is, indeed, ambiguous, but has been used in some scholarly contexts. Another precise, albeit more unwieldy option would be Livonia (German). And then there's a good old standby, used by contemporaries: Terra Mariana. —Zalktis (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- It seems that You nailed it! The Latin name for the land of the Virgin Mary? Actually, it's not as rare as one would think, it beats at google books the Livonian Confederation 119 returns with 367 , it's more than 3x even though not all of the returns speak about the country exactly. And even the Encyclopedia Americana - Page 87 says: popularly called Livonia. Under its official name, Terra Mariana, it was technically a principality of the Holy Roman Empire. Let me sleep on it.--Termer (talk) 10:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)