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An anonymous ip keeps coming on and claiming that Hull was the second most heavily bombed city in the blitz. The problem is is that this contradicts several sources which clearly show Liverpool as being the second most heavily bombed, both in terms of tonnage of bombs dropped, and in terms of casualties. Any idea how to solve this? G-13114 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
At this diff I have removed competitive claims and clarified that some figures refer to the whole period of the war, while most figures in this article refer only to the period of the Blitz as defined, that is, between 7 September 1940 and 21 May 1941. I hope that solves the problem. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:12, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The RAF had been bombing Germany since 3rd September 1939, more than a year before the London Blitz began. This should be mentioned in the article, as the Germans were only responding to what the British had started. (XavierKnightley (talk) 17:29, 15 February 2014 (UTC))
Have you an RS for this, and could you maybe hold back from adding it to the article, please, until consensus is reached here? Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
As the "Strategic Bombing During World War II" article shows, the RAF bombed Wilhelmshaven on the night of 3rd-4th September 1939, resulting in the first German casualties of the war. Hitler ordered the London Blitz in retaliation for the RAF already bombing Germany for more than a year. (XavierKnightley (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2014 (UTC))
...But you might want to get the facts straight. Quoting the strategic bombing article isn’t that constructive, as WP is not a reliable source, but you probably ought to read it through before making expansive claims. That article is clear that the RAF bombed Wilhelmshaven in response to German bombing of Poland, that the target was German warships, and that the casualties were German sailors.
That article also states the RAF bombing of German industrial targets was in response to the Rotterdam blitz and the bombing of French towns in May 1940, and that prior to then bombing of German targets was restricted in order to avoid civilian casualties, so as not to provoke a tit-for-tat response.
And the Battle of Britain article is also clear that the Luftwaffe were bombing British cities at night during July and August well before the raid on Berlin is supposed to have provoked the Blitz; and that here the evidence is that bombing London wasn’t just retaliation, whatever Hitler might have claimed in a propaganda speech, but was the next phase in the blitzkrieg process; a knockout blow against the enemies capital, leading to a collapse of morale and surrender.
The UK started World War II, and the RAF bombed Germany on 3rd September 1939 - more than a year before the German government finally ordered the Blitz in response. During the Battle of Britain period in July and August 1940 the Luftwaffe was only bombing military and industrial targets. (XavierKnightley (talk) 15:29, 17 February 2014 (UTC))
And that article on bombing during World War I shows the British bombed Germany first, on 22nd September 1914. (XavierKnightley (talk) 15:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC))
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ To quote the Bomber Command diary entry for 1939 "Within hours of the declaration of war, 28 aircraft...were despatched to locate German warships. ...That night, 10 Whitleys dropped leaflets over Hamburg, Bremen and The Ruhr. ...anti-shipping operations on the following day told a very different tale. 29 Blenheims and Wellingtons attempted to bomb German warships in Wilhelmshaven and Brunsbüttel". Later for March 1940 "Such was the concern that civilian casualties were to be avoided ...that the remote base at Hörnum of the island of Sylt was chosen." By comparison Germany was less careful about in the Bombing of Wieluń. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:54, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
The UK chose to declare war only on Germany (even though Germany and the Soviet Union both invaded Poland), and the RAF attacked Germany over a year before the London Blitz started. For some reason the British government chose not to say anything about the incredibly brutal aerial attacks by the Soviet air force in Poland, Finland, Hungary, Moldova etc.(XavierKnightley (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2014 (UTC))
The UK was bound by international treaty to declare war when Poland was invaded by the Nazis. If you are trying to claim some kind of moral superiority for the Nazi regime that is not going to work.--Charles (talk) 23:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Without good references to discuss this is just becoming expressions of personal opinion - see WP:NOTAFORUM. Looking further up the page, I see "Reason for Blitz" and "This article is apparently written by British nationalists" and cannot help but wonder if they are related. I don't see much point in continuing this until/unless XavierKnightley produces the references to support their idea and attempts to build consensus for the changes they would like to make. Simply repeating the claim will not build consensus. With best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Following on from the edits mentioned above, the article has acquired the same contentious claim that Hull was the most heavily bombed city after London. This was shoehorned in between the existing text and it’s sources, so there’s no guarantee that it is supported by them at all. But even if it is, the claim is contradicted elsewhere, as has been pointed out before.
It has already been discussed (here, and here) that this claim for any city is unhelpful, and impossible to substantiate without a common criterion.
So I’ve removed it, and suggest, to preserve NPOV, that we refrain from making it in future. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
At the time London and Liverpool were the two largest and busiest ports on earth, and so whilst it is possible that Hull was heavily bombed, it is unlikely that the Luftwaffe placed its importance above the two previously mentioned ones.
London and Liverpool were the two 'hubs' of the British Empire and most of the imported raw materials, and exported finished goods, went into Britain, and out to the world, via these two ports.
IIRC, during the period 1939-1945 the total bomb tonnage dropped on the UK by the Luftwaffe was around 70,000 long tons.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:21, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The Article states that Liverpool was bombed just 8 times from August 1940 up until 21 May 1941?!!!, There were over 50 raids between August and November 1940 alone. (Liverpool was the most heavily bombed, Hull was the most serverely damaged city outside of London. Bootle was the most severely damaged borough in the UK.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 14:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
There were 8 major raids, where more than 100 tons of bombs were dropped. It doesn't count the numerous smaller raids. G-13114 (talk) 20:07, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
In the middle of the British Ports section is the 'sentence' "Some 50 Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive-bombers and Jabos (fighter-bombers) officially classed as 'light bombers' (Leichte Kampfflugzeuge) sometimes called Leichte Kesselringe (Light Kesselrings)." This makes no sense. I assume that it should end something like "...were pressed into service"? Or perhaps not.
It would be helpful if someone with more knowledge or better sources could amend this. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)