Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Archive 18

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Redundancy

There is a lot of redundancy in this article, with certain elements of Mormon doctrine being repeated over and over again, as though the article seeks to place particular emphasis upon them for some reason. Whether this is because contributors have not been paying attention to what's already been written in the article or because someone is trying to make a point I'm not sure…I would like assume good faith though and give those who have edited the article the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, it needs to be majorly cleaned up, with a single mention of each significant element of church doctrine being plenty sufficient. I'll try to fix it a little bit myself. --Antodav2007 (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

It might help me if I knew what to look for. What are some things that you think are being repeated too much? Thanks. Ltwin (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Watch the changes and you will see. ... (Granted, there is a lot to read through.) Truly, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Other important websites (like Mormon.org and FamilySearch.org) which are official LDS Church sites.

A while ago, other 'external sites' were listed. The list grew and some WP editors said, "Enough!" Now, just one site reference remains and that is not enough. Here on TALK, I plan to revisit a list which I will ponder and compose for review. It is a disservice to Wikipedia readers to not see some of the available websites from the LDS Church. As another example, Lynnette and I are very active in INDEXING, part of FamilySearch.org which is very popular and could link to the upcoming 1940 Census (to be released to the public on April 2nd, 2012). That is just one of many examples. Another is the emphasis of LDS youth and the presence the LDS Church has on the web for them. I agree that the list could become too expansive, but with careful selectivity, more than just one external link will be a great addition to our superb and great Wikipedia article. Give me the weekend to ponder and produce a 'first draft' list. Others can jump in. Thanks, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 22:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there's a case for including a link to mormon.org here in the ELs, but I think most of the other links you're referring to are properly housed elsewhere on enwp (e.g., FamilySearch, Mormon Channel, YM/YW) and easily accessible via lds.org. —Eustress talk 22:54, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
It's been a while, I'll add the mormon.org link. —Eustress talk 13:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Translation to Bicol

I'd like to inform you that I've been trying to translate this site into our local dialect, Bicol/Bikol, and you can find such translation at this link An Simbahan ni Jesukristo nin mga Banal sa Huring-aldaw. I'm a member of the Church and this work I would love to finish because it could certainly help some of our members who Bicolanos. I need help for all links of references that the site would need. For your information, I have completely translated into Bicol the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price which were published through my blogs. And of the present, I'm still editing some of the part. My handwritten translation for the two standards of the Church were already submitted to Translation Manager (Ms. Paz) based in Manila. I need your full approval to continue my translation into Bicol, and I intend to finish it. All I need is a formal acknowledgement authorizing me to continue doing it. Thanks.Geopoet (talk) 07:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Brother, what can you say about this post. Thanks a lot. Geopoet (talk) 07:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"Mormon moment" block quote

There is a block quote in the Media and arts section that seems out of place and undue in the article. Any objections to its removal or any suggestions how to better integrate it? —Eustress talk 13:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

It should be reworded in its introductory sentence, but removing it . . . (?) ... It has interesting media and art information. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I noticed when looking through this article that it has several disambiguation problems. When referring to the LDS Church, LDS WP pages should be where the links lead to, rather than general Latter Day Saint movement pages. I don't have time to fix them all myself, but I just wanted to bring it up here so that anyone who would care to can take care of this. Am I just crazy, or do you think this would be a good idea? Thoughts? --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 15:07, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

April Conference (semi-annual) statistics announced

As you may know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds two world conferences each year, April Conference and October Conference. Today, the statistics and financial report for 2011 were given as follows:

  • Financial Report: The leadership council distributes tithing funds and safeguards them. Certified auditors verified for 2011.
  • 2011 Statistical Report: 2,946 stakes; 340 missions; 608 districts (in missions); 28,784 wards and branches; 14,441,346 members on record; 119,917 new children of record in the church; and 281,312 converts baptized; 55,410 full-time missionaries serving; 22,299 service (senior) missionaries (some living at home); two temples were dedicated, bringing total to 136 operating temples.
I'm listing this here in case it is needed in the article, and also FYI, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
It appears that this information has already been included in the article. Thanks for reposting them. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 07:00, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, of the ten data points, I only find one mentioned in the Article. There remains over 14million members of the church (and so that is not changed) but the reference in the footnote says this is the statistic of the church itself (implying it could be suspect) and is dated 2009 and 2006. Not a problem, but what I provide here is FYI to anchor our own understanding. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 10:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

FYI, you can check out our complete LDS conference outline (we made ourselves) at

User:Charles_Edwin_Shipp#.281.29_Notes_from_LDS_semi-annual_conference.2C_of_interest_in_Wikipedia

and you can also check the news briefs at LDS.org . . . Truly, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 22:14, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

"Largest church originating on American soil"?

Regarding this edit (which has been made and reverted twice), the statement in the cited source is this: "Emerging in an atmosphere of intense religious activity (later referred to as the Second Great Awakening), there was little indication at the time that Mormonism would eventually become the largest church to originate on American soil." In my view, this is a reasonable item to include in the article. From the context of the statement, it is overwhelmingly clear that "American soil" is being used here specifically with reference to the United States, so I would suggest replacing "on American soil" with "in the United States", but otherwise I believe the statement is appropriate. — Richwales 22:10, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

The statement is pretty much full of vagueness though. "Largest" in what way? By "church", are they saying any religion, a Christian denomination, or Christian offshoot/cult/sect? By "America", well you covered that above. In addition, if you get past those words that aren't clear, how well researched is the claim? Are there Native American religions with more followers (current or historical)? And so on.... pretty much is just a peacock phrase that isn't really super clear. -- Avanu (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there is any need to be obtuse or to inflict others with a similar dimmness. The quote is crystal clear to those that read English with a minimal understanding. I am sure that "largest" does not mean a big building, waist size, but actually means largest church by membership. Church means exactly what it says without any need for a qualifier i.e. should we qualify this church or that church as a cult; according to whom? A church in this context is just a church; nothing more and nothing less. It is so much easier to just take things as presented without trying to fog it up, dumb it down, or exaggerate what is actually stated. Life is so much easier without any need to be coy or silly. --StormRider 07:44, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Mormon anti-LGBT Tactics and Hate Acts Needs own Section

It is appalling that gay people in the United States and other nations are denied the basic civil right of marriage. It is also noteworthy to point out that the largest anti-LGBT organization in North America is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is also mind-boggling that the numerous gay suicides of the Fall of 2010 as a result of Thomas S. Monson's bigoted speech at General Conference have been ignored here. Needless to say, many gay and Lesbian children of LDS couples have war-stories about the bullying, hatred and discrimination they received within the Church and more often than not in their own families. Hatred towards the Gay Community has by the very actions of the LDS Organization over many years has clearly proven to be a Modus Operandi of the entire Church. One might also consider the fact that the Church is a corporation yet still maintains a tax-exempt status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dooor-Matt (talkcontribs) 07:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

This issue is already covered to a fair extent at Homosexuality and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While I could agree that a little bit more can/should be said on the subject in this article, I would caution everyone that the discussion must remain even-handed and neutral, and that polemics are not appropriate either in any article or in any talk page. — Richwales 20:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The controversies belong with the parent article. Moving them to external pages seems like a defensive play.swampfoot (talk) 08:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
"Strict-constructionist" churches typically take an official stance against the gay lifestyle. What's special about the Mormons? I find it hard to believe there are more Mormons in America than there are Catholics or Baptists, for example. As regards the OP's editorializing about marriage being a "civil right", that question is yet to be finally decided by the courts. There's nothing in the U.S. Constitution about marriage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
There is nothing in the Constitution barring same-sex marriage. That said, the constitution also does not guarantee a person will have their views honored by a religious organization. It is a double edged sword.
The term 'Homophobia' is a one-sided term. Many people are innately put off by many practices, and are not necessarily 'phobic'. Maybe the practices are the problem, sometimes.
Asking for a 'Mormon anti-LBGT Tactics and Hate Acts' section is like asking for a pre-loaded section title. In an encyclopedia, such would not be appropriate. A discussion of the organization's views on 'non-traditional' marriages might be warranted. This is en encyclopedia.
There is overwhelming pressure placed on children who are raised by parents of a compulsory faith.
swampfoot (talk) 09:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Mormonism vs Traditional Christianity

Has anyone considered a section on how Mormonism and Christianity compare? It seems like that's what people come to this page are looking for. If it's Christianity, how does it differ from the Christianity of Catholics and protestants?Jasonnewyork (talk) 02:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

See Mormonism and Christianity. There is a 'See also' link to it at this article. 72Dino (talk) 02:55, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Perfect. Sorry I missed it. And thanks for the response.Jasonnewyork (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I am wondering out loud here, but should Mormonism be included in the Christianity portal? It seems so far removed from traditional Christianity that perhaps it warrants it's own sect name. Brain696 (talk) 10:29, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Mormonism should be kept in the Christianity portal, because this is how Christianity is defined: "The mainstream Christian belief is that Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine and fully human and the savior of humanity." Mormons follow this definition, so they are Christians, albeit a more unique form of Christian. Don't think of it as being "removed" from traditional Christianity, but more added upon it (except for the whole Trinity thing - that's removed). Kupiakos (talk) 07:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC) Kupiakos
I think it is more of a self-identifying feature. The LDS Church calls itself Christian from numerous reliable sources (you can quote numerous General Conference talks, interviews, and even news conferences when asked this question). It is like other things on Wikipedia, where generally it is not defined from outside but a self-identifying feature like gender preference, and even "race". If you have fair skin, blue eyes, and Swedish ancestry but want to call yourself a black African, knock yourself out. Find reliable sources on the issue at hand of course and other things of WP:FIVE, but it is up to the person or organization itself for how it wants to be identified. Anything else is original research. --Robert Horning (talk) 15:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I added "There are some differences between Mormonism and Christianity." to the lede to reflect this discussion.87.194.44.183 (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Following criticism, I rephrased it to " There are significant differences between Mormonism and Nicene Christianity. " please suggest an improved phrasing, but I think this is something that should be in the first paragraph.87.194.44.183 (talk) 12:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree. At present this article is not objective.

87.194.44.183 (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Your talk page is highly offensive. - swampfoot (talk) 09:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
1. The LDS organization falls within the category of Abrahmic religions, and much less within western 'christianity'. Regardless of it's name, were one to investigate the full extent of it's practices, were one allowed free access, one would find it bears little resemblance to what Jesus taught, even without presuming the validity of the entire 'south- american' set of 'scriptures', which validity has an extremely low probability, by any objective view.
2. Persons using the phrase 'The Church' herein are presuming much. 'This Church' would be more objective. - swampfoot (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Like it or not, by WP's definition, the LDS Church 'is' Christian. It's in the very name of the Church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those who say it bears little resemblance to what Jesus taught speak out of ignorance of the Church's doctrines and practices. People use the phrase "The Church" because that is the correct way to refer to this organization. Within the LDS portal, that is the accepted moniker. At the end of the day, what it comes down to is this: If you don't like reading about LDS doctrines and practices, if you have nothing useful to contribute to the improvement of LDS articles, don't read or edit them. At least, that's my perspective. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 19:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

People use the phrase "The Church" to refer to the LDS church within the organization. If you were to use that phrase anywhere but Utah among non-Mormons, the first response you would receive is "Uhh...what church?" I agree it is highly presumptive of the LDS Church to want to be known as "The Church," like they are the only one (or only true one, as they believe). --Manway 23:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Manway is correct. "The Church" (capitalized) is inappropriate for Wikipedia. Drop the caps and it's fine. If "church" is to be capitalized it needs to be part of the name of the church ("LDS Church" is appropriate). See MOS:LDSJARGON for further details. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Whether this page should be included in category 'Organizations that Oppose Same-sex Marriage'

It seems that if any organization should be included in the below-listed category, it should by the LDS Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Organizations_that_oppose_same-sex_marriage

Admittedly, users may not feel listing this one political stance is representative, but WP can't advance on the premise that all categories/edits/pages must be produced at once in order to be included. If we feel categories should be produced for anti-abortion, etc, then that's another job to do. As for this, I'd suggest the category should be included. --Chronotopian (talk) 16:54, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

  • We categorize things by characteristics that are central to them. It never works to categorize a Church by the political stances it has taken. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spends most of its time, energy and resources on preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's time, energy and resources spent in support of the legal definition of marriage as a man/women institution is very limited. If we are going to categorize it by this stance, it should also be placed in Category:Organizations opposed to the Equal Rights Admendment among others. It never works to categorize a Church by the political stances it has taken, because political stances are not the primary reason for the Church to exist. It is always a case of giving undue weight. There is no rule that says a category needs to include everything that could possibly be put there. Putting articles in categories is based on the article, and limited to how relevant to the article the subject is. Categorizing a Church by the political stance it has taken always amounts to undue weight. Also, contrary to what Chronotopian has said, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not a primary sponsorer of Proposition 8. The Church did not officially endorse the measure until after it was placed on the ballot. The Church was not an official sponsor, those were all individuals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not the first organization to be involved. Also, the Church has played absolutely no role in the subsequent judicial battle. The Church has made no attempt to encorage members to donate to the Prop 8 defense fund. It has sent no lawyers, which has lead to private internal communications by the Church being made public because it was not proactively defending its internal communication rights. The only speaking on behald of the Church done at trial was done by a lawyer acting for the Official Sponsors who recognized as not relevant to the case Church communications, but since there was no lawyer for the Church present the district judge was able to brush aside and ignore these important issues and cojntinue with his overly braod fishing expedition. To categorize the Church by this one positon is to overemphasize one aspect at the expense of understanding its whole position. Since the Church does not excommunicate people for actively supporting a redefinition of marriage but it does for adultry, an actions based, logical categorization scheme would have it in Category:Organizations opposed to adultry sooner. Categorizing Church by political stances will lead to a disorganized mess that we do not want to go into.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:09, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I'd look at it a different way. Though opposition to same-sex marriage may not be a major part of the church's doctrine or overall message, the church's opposition to same-sex marriage is a very notable and prominent factor in the sociopolitical debate. I don't think that including the church in the category should be interpreted that it's a major defining characteristic of the church, but rather that in terms of the category's criteria, the church is widely documented in reliable sources to qualify. I think the category should be re-added. alanyst 17:28, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree, and would say that this is one of the differences and benefits of categories over text in an article entry - it draws together contextual connections with other articles. --Chronotopian (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Category:Organizations that oppose same-sex marriage is a sub-cat of Category:Political organizations by issue. Thus the category contents should be limited to political organizations. It should not include every organizations that has ever taken a stance for the continuation of man/woman marriage. The fact that it does not include The Becket Fund, which unlike The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has filed amicus Curaie briefs at both the district and appeals court level of the Prop 8 case arguing for the preservation of Prop 8, shows that mere support of man/woman marriage is not enough. The Becket Fund's position as only caring a about how law effects religious freedom means that an attempt to so categorize it would fail. The fact is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a political organiztion, missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not advance politcal positions. I know this first hand because I was in Nevada as a missionary during the strugle over Prop 2, more or less the same as Proposition 8 in California, and we never in any way were encoraged as missionaries to do anything to advance Propostion 2. Churches are not political organizations and should not be put in categories that are part of the political organizations hierarchy. Otherwise based on the amount of actual politcal action on the matter, the Roman Catholic Church should be put in Category:Organizations opposed to legal divorce if we hope for Wikipedia to ever be more than an encyclopedia reflecting presentist, American concerns.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:30, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
That's a good point about the category hierarchy. The church doesn't seem to fit under the moniker of "political organizations" per se, though it certainly has political influence. The question then becomes whether the category's hierarchy needs to be changed/broadened so that organizations that are not inherently political entities belong, or else the category be renamed to Category:Political organizations that oppose same sex-marriage to better reflect the scope. If the latter, then the category ought to go; if the former, it should stay. alanyst 17:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the other organisations in the category are churches, but all the same, I'd be happy with changing the hierarchy of the category to fit with a narrower definition of political action. --Chronotopian (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the new hierarchy would go alongside this one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:LGBT_religious_organizations ? Seems to be a precedent here. --Chronotopian (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
  • As an example of the sort of thing that does belong in this category look at the article on Oregon Defense of Marriage Coalition. This is an organization that had as its sole purpose to promote a measure to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. That is very different from a Church which does not have that as even one of its central purposes. The category is meant to be used in a very different set of circumstances than one finds with a Church, especially a Church that has not taken a proactive stance on this issue in most places it exists. As far as I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has only actively taken a position on this matter in the US and Argentina, and even in the US it did not proactively try to influence the debate on the issue in some states where it has come up. Maine, Nebraska, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Oregon, California, Hawaii, Alaska and some other states yes, but I have seen no evidence that the church ever tried to influence the debate on this matter in New York, Connecticut or Massachusetts.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:38, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I removed the problematic parent category here. 72Dino (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
As this issue would seem to be satisfactorily resolved, I'll restore the category. --Chronotopian (talk) 06:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Economy of Salt Lake City

While it is true that the economy of Salt Lake City is very dependent on the actions of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, both as a direct body and through the many businesses it owns (such as the Deseret News, Deseret Book, the City Creek Shopping Center and others) it is more debatable that this category applies to the Church as a body. The church expends huge amounts of money in building buildings, printing materials, and running operations. With the devolving of many operations to area presidencies and their staffs, the Church does many things far beyond Salt Lake City. The SLC economy is still heavily dependent on the actions of the Church, but categorizing a 14+ million member church under the economy of a city with less than 200,000 people just does not work.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I support this move. While certainly the Catholic Church is important to the economy of Rome, it is hardly the most significant element either. I'm sure you can give other examples. I really don't see what the church itself deserves to do with that category. Welfare Square (if it was actually made into an article... something I would actually suggest) might be much more appropriate particularly since it actually is in Salt Lake City and deals with economics, or if the commercial enterprises under Deseret Management Corporation were involved. For the church as a whole, it really doesn't fit. --Robert Horning (talk) 23:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
The placement of wlefare square in that category would actually work. I am surprised there is no article on it. Also City Creek Center would work there. I am less certain about the placement of say Deseret Book there, since although its flagship store is in SLC, it has stores in lots of cities in the western United States and even a few outside that region I believe.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
There are three points worth considering, regarding the LDS organization's worldwide headquarters in Salt Lake City.
  • Within it's membership, the LDS organization is generally refers to Salt Lake City as 'Zion'.
  • The oversight for the vast holdings of the LDS organization ultimately defer to administration by efforts of the worldwide headquarters.
  • The LDS organization has by default an overwhelming (not illegal) majority influence over most democratic processes within Salt Lake City, so there is no arguing the influence of the organization's overwhelming impact on the city's economics.
In the interest of a complete encyclopedic reference within this article, I see no reason why this, and other sections, cannot be expanded or sub-categorized within this article itself, regardless of the size of the content. Again, this is an encyclopedia, and neutrality is paramount.swampfoot (talk) 18:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
There are already articles addressing the items you've mentioned:
  1. Zion (Latter Day Saints)
  2. Finances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
  3. Less than half of Salt Lake City is LDS, and the majority of Latter-day Saints live outside of the United States, so I don't see why there would be so much emphasis on SLC. 72Dino (talk) 18:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You may be correct about the demographics within the City's municipal boundaries. If one expands a concentric ring outward a mere few miles, or perhaps minutes by car, or perhaps one or two area codes by phone, one will find LDS membership numbers which easily outweigh any other single group. Such demographics impact heavily on municipal decision making.
swampfoot (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Two area codes out from SLC is nearly the entire inter-mountain western USA. I don't think that is the standard you are looking for here. The point being made here is that the category being discussed simply isn't appropriate for this particular article, particularly given that there are other articles that do go into the specific economic enterprises for which the LDS Church is involved with and in particular have a much more direct impact upon Salt Lake City. Those specific enterprises would be more of what somebody actually using those categories would be interested in finding anyway, and their connection to the LDS Church is noted clearly in those articles. Besides, everything you mention here in regards to SLC could also apply to Utah as a whole, or even more so. --Robert Horning (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Church structure (for infobox)

First gripe's first: Why is the infobox a separate template? It's supposed to be the at-a-glance for this page, so it has no need to show up anywhere else. Second, as for the actual structure, I think it's safe to say that the LDS Church is quasi episcopal in its polity. Not its doctrine. Its structure. It has bishops chosen from among the membership by the next level of the hierarchy, and each level of the hierarchy is chosen by the level above it, until you get to the top. So far as I understand, the LDS Church also claims that there was some kind of restoration of Apostolic succession for the Church, so it even mimics that. The only real difference I can discern between the LDS Church and the Catholic is that the LDS Church has no concept of Holy Orders and thus no full-time lower-level clergy. This is a very important difference on the ground of course, since it means that any sufficiently prominent Mormon can and is indeed likely to have been a bishop (to say nothing of the fact it means the title "bishop" is used for the lowest-level position in the hierarchy), but from the perspective of the overall structural analysis, it would be fair to call it "episcopal." I would argue that when discussing Christian denominations, "hierarchical" is the same thing as "episcopal;" the fact that the Church actually calls one of its levels of church leadership "bishops," and the fact that the term "episcopal" means "rule by bishops" gives strong weight. I admit I would need some sources, but I think they're out there. Lockesdonkey (talk) 00:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

request for unprotection or less protection

I would like to see this page get unprotected because I don't think that this page will be frequently vandalised to the point that it needs protection, feel free to yell at me at my talk page. 0alx0 (talk) 23:15, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

The only current protection applied to this article is "move" protection. According to the article's protection log, it has been move-protected since 2008 on the grounds that it is a "highly visible page" that has no reason to be moved. Although it's probably unlikely anyone would want to try to rename the article now, I don't really see any reason to change the status quo. Are you, by any chance, suggesting that a renaming is in order? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:39, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Readers and Wikipedia editors are making changes unhindered; like changing the first line which was then changed back to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the LDS Church or, informally, the Mormon Church) is a Christian primitivist church that considers itself to be a restoration of the church founded by Jesus Christ." The point I am making is that, as pointed out, there is no restriction on editing, apparently. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

"Meetinghouse" picture isn't a meetinghouse

I'm a Church member and I wanted to mention something: The picture of the "meetinghouse" you have in this article isn't a meetinghouse (ward building, in Church terminology), it's a picture of a stake center. Stake centers and meetinghouses look almost alike, but they're not the same. I have a picture of a meetinghouse to add here, but what should I categorize it under? KellyLeighC (talk) 15:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Stake centers ARE meetinghouses, and that is the terminology the church uses. Bahooka (talk) 16:40, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

My mistake. I assumed it wanted a ward building. Thanks for correcting me. 50.88.218.76 (talk) 00:42, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

No problem. Meetinghouse is the generic term for stake centers and ward buildings, and differentiates these buildings from temples, etc. Welcome to Wikipedia and I hope you enjoy editing here. Bahooka (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Church membership statistics change request

Change "Members 14,782,473[ii]" to "Members 15,000,000," per church statistics.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/15-million-member-milestone-announced-at-churchs-general-conference — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agroupaccount (talkcontribs) 18:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done — Tnks, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Here are latest statistics for Wikipedia editors to edit and improve the Article here, as deemed appropriate. Of high interest is (1) the growth of the Church; (2) International missionary and humanitarian work; (3) new temples, like in Rome; (4) new church leaders; (5) Other.

Here are the statistics (ending December 31, 2013) reported in the 184th General (World) Conference: The number of stakes is 3,050 with 405 missions; 571 districts (within a mission but not big enough to be a stake, yet); 29,253 wards and branches, (a branch is not big enough to be a ward, yet). Total membership is 15,082,028 [adding up the files in the membership computer database. The prophet called it 15million.] The number of children of record added in 2013 was 115,486; and the number of convert baptisms was 282,945 during the year. As of December 31, there were 83,035 fulltime missionaries [young elders, young sister missionaries, and seniors] 34,032 church service missionaries “serving throughout the Church.” One temple in Honduras was dedicated during 2013, bring the total of operating temples up to 141 at the end of the year.

The statistical report was preceded by the Audit Report, “to give reasonable assurance” of funds received and disbursed in the year 2013. — Filling the needs to (1) budget, (2) avoid debt, and (3) plan ahead to save against time of need, same advice to members. [Short and sweet.]

Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 23:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Conference talks

FYI, if it helps at all in improving the article, I have recorded what was covered in the conference just ended. LDS world telecasts of conferences occur twice a year, in April and October. The views and instruction of church leaders tell a lot about the LDS church. You will find my personal notes on my TALK page.[1] The linked article to the LDS.org newsroom has 38 photos. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

True. My thumbNotes are for Wikipedia editors, not WP readers. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:44, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

From 2013 conference, statistics: [2] and for Church positions, my notes: [3] (for accuracy.) — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

An editor complained about my personal Wikipedia page so I removed my excellent and useful notes. You can find some of them in the Archives. Plus, so much is online now that you can go to 'Mormon News Room' [4] or the LDS History site [5] and so many other official LDS site (not listed in our WP article here) that my notes have diminished value, except to me. — Truly, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm a Mormon. Don't judge. Other people don't like it.I think that you should edit the parts that other people don't exactly agree with. Dance3600 (talk) 05:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Restoration?

I've seen a few edits recently about this line:

"...is a Christian restorationist church that considers itself to be the restoration of the church founded by Jesus Christ."

The disagreement seems to be whether "the restoration" is NPOV. Not according to the LDS church. It's the very foundation of their religion. In their scriptures (Pearl Of Great Price, Joseph Smith History 1, verses 18 and 19), it states the following (italics mine):

"18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Smith claimed to have restored the pure Church of Jesus Christ. While it would be NPOV to say that the LDS church IS the restoration, I don't believe it's NPOV to say the church CONSIDERS it to be the restoration.

Thoughts? --Manway 16:38, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you meant: "While it would be POV to say that the LDS church IS the restoration, I don't believe it's POV to say the church CONSIDERS it to be the restoration."? -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:42, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
EXACTLY what I meant. Thank you. In the words of Steve Martin, "Some people have a way with words. Other people...well...uh...don't have...way, you know?" Appreciate the clarification. Regards, --Manway 19:11, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
With that clarification, I agree with you. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I am a Mormon and Joseph Smith did restore the Church, and the reason why is that the world was not being true to the commandments. Dance3600 (talk) 05:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

This comment is directed to the editor above and is for informational purposes only. I am also LDS (remember to use correct terminology as requested by Church leaders) and I also know that Joseph Smith restored the Church that existed in Christ's day. But for Wikipedia purposes, we can only say that our Church "considers itself to be a restoration of Christ's original Church" because to do otherwise violates Wikipedia policies about having a neutral point of view. So that's why the current wording exists in this article this way. Hope that helps you. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Differences between LDS and Christians need to include the central issue, very different beliefs about God and the Trinity

Hi I visited another wiki article written from a LDS POV and noticed it misleadingly grouped Mormons with "other Christian groups" and visited this article to find that at the end of the section on "Controversy and Criticism" the central reason why Christians do not regard Mormons as Christian is not mentioned. It is basic common sense to point out in the Controversy and Criticism section the Mormon belief in a trinity of three divine beings (and in the words of this article in another section there is also a belief that Mormons may "become divine beings or 'gods' themselves") decidedly differs from the foundational Christian belief in only one God in three divine persons. Here is what the article currently says: "Many have accused the LDS Church of not being a Christian church at all as a result of disagreements with Apostolic succession and the "Great Apostasy", the Nicene Creed and, more so, Mormon cosmology and its plan of salvation including the doctrines of pre-mortal life, baptism for the dead, three degrees of heaven, and exaltation." Something about the differences between Mormons and Christians about whether there are multiple divine beings or only one God necessarily belongs in this article. There is a Wikipiedia article on Mormon beliefs about God which might be helpful for an editor to ensure this most significant point of controversy is touched on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Mormonism Elizdelphi (talk) 00:08, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

If you did your research a little better, you would discover that the requested wording does indeed exist in other articles relating to the LDS Church, including all the details you proposed for this article. You can find them relatively easily. Happy reading! --Jgstokes (talk) 00:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)