Talk:The Crown (Commonwealth realms)

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Crown dependency[edit]

The article does not make clear the meaning of crown in the expression crown dependency. Crown dependency seems to avoid the issue by using or abusing The Crown. Laurel Bush 16:30, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC).

International use[edit]

Is The Crown used anywhere other than the UK? This article has a general first sentence and then talks solely of the British use. Jon.baldwin 21:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The Crown is also used in Denmark, Greenland and the Faroe islands as a synonym for the danish monarchy or in some cases the monarch herself. Greenland and the Faroe islands are considered 'crown territories of Denmark'. This is not compareable to that of the Commonwealth realms though, as the monarch is still (theoretically) the ruling authority in both territories. Crispy 15:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Kronan (the Crown) is also used in Sweden. 130.243.240.243 (talk) 18:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

It talks of Canadian, Australian, et al. usage. But, as for places like Denmark, Thailand, etc., I don't know. --gbambino 22:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I should have made that clearer. Jon.baldwin 01:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

R v Defendant[edit]

How does this article provide the information that The Crown (Rex) and The Crown (Regina) presented? I created those articles becuase someone one time changed the "R" to an "R", which is not very useful. How does redirecting from those 2 articles to Crown convey anything meaningful? And then of course removing the R. served as icing on this cake. lmno 03:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

There should certainly be a section explaining that the Crown Prosecution Service, known in court as The Crown, prosecutes defendants in the name of the sovereign. Changing the R to an R might also help. 194.203.110.127 10:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"The"[edit]

Forgive me for being a jerk but ...

As a general rule naming an article with "The" as the first word is bad form (e.g. the article "United States" not "The United States"). Using "The" as the differentiator between two articles is silly ("Crown" vs. "The Crown"). I see the distinction that is being attempted here but this is, at best, confusing (in this case there is the additional concern of whether it is proper to say that "The Crown" uniquely identifies the British Commonwealth. I'd guess there are many Europeans that would say no).

May I suggest:

  • Crown - A disambig like it is now.
  • Crown (British Commonwealth) - This page

--Mcorazao 02:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's ok Mcorazao. The Crown is always referred to as 'The Crown' in Commonwealth Realms. It is implicitly assumed to refer to Betty Windsor and her brood. Ozdaren 13:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not called the "Royal British Navy", it's "Royal Navy". People apparently understand that just fine. krikkert (Talk) 22:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • It has evolved from Imperial times. A statement that sums it up a bit better from the Imperial Crown article: "Within the British constitution, The Crown is an abstract concept which represents the legal authority for the existence of the government, and, by acts of Parliament, the Crown is an imperial crown."
That sentence I feel sums it up well. For example, this is one of the reasons why when suing the government you would claim "The Crown", as the defendant. Due to constitutional evolution the Monarch's ultimate powers have been placed into check by the Parliament. A republic is "of, for, and by the people" but in a monarchy, it is a government on the HoS' behalf. Again this view is upheld by the British Passports being issued in Queen Elizabeth's name. CaribDigita (talk) 10:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
But, of course, in a constitutional monarchy, the sovereign reigns at the people's behest; in other words, they place their sovereignty in a tangible, living human being rather than an abstraction like "the state". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Bad move[edit]

This page now has an anachronistic title; there is no such thing as the "British Commonwealth". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I have moved it to be under a more appropriate title. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

This makes no sense[edit]

After the recent moves, The Crown redirects here... That makes absolutely no sense: an undisambiguated page pointing to a disambiguated page using that undisambiguated title but adding a disambiguator in brackets?!? I.e., The Crown REDIRECTS to The Crown (Commonwealth realms)?! Anyway, there is no disambiguation page: how does one find The Crown (band) if one is new to WP and doesn't understand the search function? Or what about The Crowns? Note, also, that people outside of the Commonwealth—indeed outside of the UK, even—are most unlikely to think of the Crown Prosecution Service when they hear the term. (Indeed, the article on the CPS doesn't even mention that colloquialism.) Given that there is only one usage of this name that the greatest majority of people seaching WP for "The Crown" will be looking for, i.e. the usage explored in this article, this page should, IMO, be returned to The Crown and The Crown (disambiguation) should be created for the other, far less likely, potentially intended targets such as Crown Prosecution Service, The Crown (band) and The Crowns. The dab header can then, probably, be dropped in favour of {{other|The Crown (disambiguation)}} --Jubileeclipman 13:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Addendum - the editor making the first move never sought consensus for the move. That editor also claimed: "This deals solely with the Crown in Commonwealth countries." So be it: that's how the term is used by the greatest majority of people on Earth. Other uses of the term can be given other articles and linked in a dab page. I am going to revert this, if I can. Otherwise WP:RM here we come... --Jubileeclipman 13:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Request move back to old title[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

The Crown (Commonwealth realms)The Crown —Relisted.-- PeterSymonds (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The Crown was the original name. Page moved without obvious consensus to a title simply adding an unnecessary dab to that title. Later Good Faith move (see above) simply confused matters further. Anyway, the undabbbed name actually redirects to this dabbed name, now, pointlessly! Note the huge number of pages that link to the old name. Note for reviewers: this move will need admin assistance because of complex page histories. Jubileeclipman 13:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I've certainly no objection (except a slight one to the assertion that I made matters worse with my move!). However, perhaps the editor who made the original move might want to explain their rationale beyond "This deals solely with the Crown in Commonwealth countries." Does he know of any other jurisdictions that use the term "The Crown" that we don't? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I meant that it confused me further... but that's quite easily done!  ;-) I thought, initially, that you had moved the page from the old name. The above brief discussion re "The" in the title confused me even more than your move and posts, in fact: the eventual move left the definate article in! It took made ages to figure out what had actually happened. No offence taken, I hope? Sorry if so --Jubileeclipman 15:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
No, no; none really ever was. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose there are "The Crown"s of non-Commonwealth realm countries. "The Crown" should redirect to the dab page for "Crown". 76.66.192.73 (talk) 04:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Such as? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Siam/Thailand for one. Aside from that, there's already a hatnote on this article, saying that "The Crown" is a common name for the district attorney system of the UK. (and this is also the case in Canada). 76.66.192.73 (talk) 05:48, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Support the move as restoring the primary topic to the most obvious location. There's no doubt there are other reigning and historical "crowns" in the world, but outside of those individual countries, the Commonwealth monarch is, frankly inarguably, the most well known. Others can be linked to via an appropriate dabhat and, if necessary, via Crown (disambiguation) or The Crown (disambiguation). jæs (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose I disagree with how the move was made but I think The Crown should redirect to Crown. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
    • The definite article The makes "The Crown" a completely distinct (but obviously related) topic in the English-speaking world than simply the noun "crown." The project long ago built a very intelligent system of disambiguation headers to accomodate multiple related topics, sometimes with very similar titles. I'm surprised by how frequently folks want to fight clear primary topics and waste the powerful, simple, and helpful a dabhat system we have. jæs (talk) 18:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
      • The argument that 'The Crown' can only refer to the British/Commonwealth crown is unconvincing. What about every other monarchy that is still functioning? Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced that the British/Commonwealth is the hands down winner for primary topic for "The Crown" and nothing within the move request reasoning has convinced me to believe otherwise.--Labattblueboy (talk) 11:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Support; else off with their heads. 109.255.180.212 (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I always thought the primary use for The Crown was the pub down the road! Skinsmoke (talk) 02:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Weeelll... there is some truth in that, actually, if you live in the UK. However, which pub? There are probably 10 called The Crown within a 2 mile radius of where I live! However, the rest of the world will have absolutely no idea what we are blathering about, so that kinda answers that... ("What's a pub?") Face-wink.svg --Jubileeclipman 07:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose - "The Crown" is ambiguous, whereas the current title is not. Leave it where it si. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Crown in right of the United Kingdom[edit]

The refs. provided do not support this use. Chrisieboy (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they do. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:51, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
No, they elaborate on the Crown, but they do not show that this term is used in the UK. Chrisieboy (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
The point isn't how the term is used in the UK, it's whether the term exists or not. The refs I already provided support this (though it seems I somehow got the page number in the book wrong), and a search of Google books for "Crown in Right of the United Kingdom" brings up a slew of results; I'm in the midst of adding more at this moment. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Your refs. refer to "the expression, The Crown ‘in right of’ the United Kingdom," they do not confirm its use as a term. Chrisieboy (talk) 14:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Was does one express one's self with in the absence of terms? Regardless, please look again at what the article says. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

represents the legal embodiment of governance[edit]

Does it represent it or is it it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.226.103 (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

a separation of the literal crown and property of the nation state from the person and personal property of the monarch[edit]

But which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.226.103 (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Improvements[edit]

First, no one knows what the Crown really is. It's apparent that its defiantly the formal head of the executive branch of government, and in this role it may be:

  • The Queen as an individual, with the same powers and rights of all other indidivuals, such as the powers to make contracts and own property.
  • A Corporation Aggregate; headed by the Queen, and made up of the departments of state, including ministers and their heads - The Government(s).
  • A Corporation Sole; with one member, the Queen; akin for example to a bishop or secretary of state.

Crown Immunities should be added to this article;[edit]

  • No Court can be enforced against the Crown, so the claimant's right to damages depends on the Crown voluntarily paying up. (civil cases) ;
  • No junctions lie against the Crown, or it's servants acting on behalf of the Crown. (civil cases);
  • In an action for breach of contact, the Crown can plead 'executive necessity', in which it can refuse to comply with a contact where it has an overriding power to take action in the public interest;
  • The Crown is not liable in tort for the acts of its officers, unless they were ordered specifically by the crown, and funded from the public purse;
  • The Crown is not bound by ANY act of Parliament unless fully stated that it binds the Crown;
  • The Crown is not liable for injuries caused in connection with bona fide acts of government policy overseas (acts of state).

Succession to the Crown and its recent changes should be added to this article.[edit]

The rules were based on medieval law governing succession to land. Preference to males over females, and the exclusion of Catholics from the Crown.

Personal Powers of the Crown (as the individual) should be added to this article[edit]

Since 1688 the personal powers of the Crown have been reduced by conventions. After the Glorious Revolution, the Crown was left as the head of the executive, dependent on parliament for funds and lawmaking power. The modern powers are:

  • To represent the nation(s);
  • To advise, encourage and warm;
  • To assent statutes;
  • To make orders in council;
  • To appoint ministers;
  • To call Proclamations, for dissolution, prorogation and summoning of parliament, of to call a state of emergency;
  • To ratify certain solemn treaties;
  • To award honours and peerages.

Intervention of the Crown should be added[edit]

In certain cases, the Crown, as the monarchy can and must exercise personal power, this can be used when:

  • Appointing a Prime Minister;
  • The dismissal of a Government and the dissolution of Parliament;
  • Refusal of dissolution, if the Government is acting unconstitutionally, such as after the loss of a General Election;
  • Refusal to grant a peerage for a biased House of Lords;
  • Royal Assent - This would only be down after considerate advice, however, if it occurs, it would turn the Crown into a supreme court; which is unlikely.

Royal Prerogative vested in the Crown should be added[edit]

The executive powers of the Government are bestowed under the Royal Prerogative, they include:

  • The appointment and dismissal of ministers;
  • The summoning, prorogation and dissolution of Parliament;
  • Royal Assent to bills;
  • Granting of honours, peerages and titles;
  • The appointment and regulaton of the Civil Service
  • The commissioning of officers to the armed forces;
  • To keep peace in the realm;
  • To enter, take and destroy property at home and overseas;
  • To expel aliens from its realm;
  • to appoint members of the Queens Council (senior barristers);
  • The prerogative of mercy (for sentencing remadies);
  • Granting Royal Charters to institutions, such as universities, charities, learned societies;
  • Regulation of charities;
  • The care of the vulnerable: children and the mentally ill;
  • The power to institute legal proceedings in the public interest and stop criminal proceedings (via the Attorney General);
  • The making of treaties;
  • The declaration of War and Peace;
  • The deployment and regulation of the armed forces;
  • The accreditation of foreign ambassadors and diplomats;
  • The governance of overseas territories;
  • The granting and revoking of passports.

GBozanko (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Multiple jurisdictions[edit]

This edit was made with the explanation "neither [the reserve power or Royal Prerogative] include the Crown acting for itself in situations where matters pertain to multiple jurisdictions." I wonder if the editor who made the edit could explain in what situations the Commonwealth realms Crown ever acts for itself in multiple jurisdictions. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:02, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment - Just bringing all the connected discussion to one place. I originally replied to the editor in question on his talk page, and it has spread to multiple locations.--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 16:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The wording you put in does not make sense. No legislature may advise the crown on anything that is not part of it's jurisdiction. The legislature of Australia, can only advise on what falls within it's jurisdiction. IF multiple legislatures have jurisdiction over something, than each legislature advises it's "instance" of the crown. Ex. The Ontario legislature will advise the Ontario Crown, but cannot advise the Canadian Crown. (Different legal entities) Even if both legislatures have jurisdiction over something. --Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 03:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Barring your first sentence, your comments are right. That begs the question — why do you keep removing wording that agrees with your comments? It is not the royal prerogative to act without advice on matters that pertain to multiple jurisdictions. Imagine a matter that pertains to Canada and Papua New Guinea; despite the way you keep editing the article, your Premier has every right to advise your Governor-General on the Canadian portions of the issue, without regard to what the Crown will be doing in PNG. If no government "may advise the Crown on any matter pertinent to another of the Crown's jurisdictions", then the Crown will be left to decide for itself in situations pertinent to more than one of the Crown's jurisdictions. Nyttend (talk) 12:27, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
How does me restoring your incorrect edit to a stable and accurate version became "you keep editing the article"? "No government may advise the Crown on any matter pertinent to another of the Crown's jurisdictions" is correct. The Crown is not left to decide for itself, as each jurisdiction is separate, and is a legal entity on it's own. The Crown for Canada does not have to make the same decision as the Crown for the UK. It does and has happened in situations like in Canada with Federal Crown/Provincial Crown, that have some overlapping jurisdiction, but the federal Prime Minister/Cabinet/Legislature CAN ONLY ADVISE the federal Crown, and the provincial Prime Ministers/Cabinets/Legislatures CAN ONLY ADVISE the provincial Crown. The federal Prime Minister CAN NOT ADVISE the provincial Crowns, and the provincial Prime Ministers CAN NOT ADVISE the federal Crown. And the 11 Crowns might make contradictory decisions. (That is one reason why there is a separate person "GG" or "LG" who represents each Crown, and also why the Queen will defer to the decisions and not involve herself in the process, as the advice of one PM might contradict the advice of another PM, who have overlapping jurisdictions.)--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎 17:20, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Your edit made it read as though ministers, legislators, and judges could advise the Crown on matters pertinent to the Crown's other jurisdictions if those matters were pertinent to multiple other jurisdictions, but could not if they pertained to only one of the Crown's other jurisdiction. The summary for that edit echoed the same odd assertion. Hence, my initial question; which still hasn't been addressed. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 14:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The Crown (band)[edit]

Just wanted to inform editors here about adding an appropriate hatnote to direct people to the band that is disamb'ed from this article. It is listed under Crown (a disambiguation page) but is not found here. Maybe I can suggest The Crown (disambiguation) be created? FireCrystal (talk) 12:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)