Talk:The Day Before the Revolution

External Link to Copyright Violation

I would assume that this short story is still copyright. So I am concerned about the external link to a website hosting the entire text of the story at no cost. Perhaps I am mistaken, but if not, the external link should be removed. Wikipedia shouldn't function as a guide to locate stolen material. Cheers! Npd2983 (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

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Book reviews not indexed by the ISFDB

Vanamonde, I took a look in Hal Hall's SF Book Review Index 1974-1979 and found some not mentioned in the ISFDB entries. Rather than try to expand the cryptic entries, I'll type them in verbatim (minus the ones in the ISFDB) and then give the key, though some of this is obvious enough.

• Nebula Award Stories 10
  • KR 43(19):1149. 0. 1, 1975.
    • Passing mention only - V93
  • PW 208(16):62-63. 0. 20, 1975.
  • LOC 182:4. D. 17, 1975. (C. Brown)
    • This issue is not on the IA, and AFAICS the only systematic collection catalogued online is at Duke University, in print. - V93
  • BKL 72(9):615. Ja. 1, 1976. (D. Miller)
  • BS 35(12):367. Mr. 1976. (J. Ayd)
  • SDNP p. 9. Ja. 3, 1976. (D. Miller)
  • TLS 3858:186. F. 20, 1976. (E. Korn)
    • Available via TWL [1] but passing mention of this story only - V93.
  • HB 52(3):320. Je. 1976. (M. Cosgrave)
  • SFO 48/49/40:57-60, 38. 0/D. 1976. (G. Turner)
  • SFBL 7:7. Ja/F. 1976. (K. Justice)
  • KPG 11:11. Spring 1977. (E. Boatner)
• The Wind's Twelve Quarters
  • KR 43(16):942. Ag. 15, 1975.
    • No mention at all of this story - V93
  • PW 208(10):55. S. 8, 1975.
  • LJ 100(18):1951. 0. 15, 1975. (C. Power)
    • Not archived so far as I can tell; earlier issues are available. - V93
  • FANA 3(11/12):15. N/D. 1975. (D. Keller)
    • Appears to be a fanzine: [2]. - V93
  • LOC 182:7. D. 17, 1975. (C. Brown)
  • SDNP p. 8. N. 8, 1975. (D. Miller)
  • NST 997:187-188. Ap. 22, 1976. (M. Sherwood)
    • Available for free on Google books [3] but no mention of this story - V93.
  • SLJ 22(7):120. Mr. 1976. (C. Starr)
    • Not archived so far as I can tell; earlier issues are available. - V93
  • CHO 13(1):71. Mr. 1976.
    • If this exists online, I cannot find it; multiple magazines by this name. - V93
  • LM 63:16-17. Mr. 1976. (P. Walker)
  • HB 52(4):430-431. Ag. 1976. (M. Cosgrave)
  • TLS 3881:950. Jl. 30, 1976. (J. Miller)
    • A lyrical review of TWTQ [4] but no mention of this story. - V93
  • KPG 10(4):22. N. 1976.
    • Not archived beyond the 1980s. - V93
  • SFO 44/45:20-23. D. 1975. (G. Turner)
  • BKL 72(9):615. Ja. 1, 1976. (D. Miller)
    • Not archived so far as I can tell; earlier issues are available. - V93
  • SFFN 11/12:3. S. 1976. (S. Burns)
    • Newsletter, not editorially reviewed, I believe. - V93
  • SFBL 10:4-5. Jl/Ag. 1976. (K. Justice)
  • QME 47:85-86. D. 1977. (F. Rottensteiner)
    • In German - V93
• More Women of Wonder
  • LM 67:34. Spring 1977. (G. Futoran)
    • Fanzine, but available. [5]. -V93
  • BKL 73(3):239. 0. 1, 1976. (D. Miller)
  • SLJ 23(1):144. S. 1976. (E. Sisco)
    • Not archived so far as I can tell; earlier issues are available. - V93
  • KPG 10(4):92. N. 1976. (J. Jackson)
  • PW 209(24):111. Je. 14, 1976.
  • KR 44(12):704. Je. 15, 1976.
  • KR 44(13):743. Jl. 1, 1976.
    • Not sure which this is, but passing mention only. - V93
  • SFBL 11:3. S/O. 1976. (K. Justice)

-- More to come later this evening. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:13, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

• Very very kind of you, Mike! I'll try and dig through those that I can find online, but it might be a couple of days. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:29, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The key:

• BKL Booklist
• BS Best Sellers
• CHO Choice
• FANA Fantasiae
• HB Horn Book
• KPG Kliatt Paperback Book Guide
• KR Kirkus Reviews
• LJ Library Journal
• LM Luna Monthly
• LOC Locus
• NST New Scientist
• PW Publishers Weekly
• QME Quarber Merkur
• SDNP Chicago Daily News. Panorama.
• SFBL SF Booklog
• SFFN SF & F Newsletter
• SFO SF Commentary
• SLJ School Library Journal
• TLS Times (London) Literary Supplement

The structure of a line is: Magazine code/volume & issue/pagination/date/reviewer. Hope this is useful; some of these I've never heard of and are probably little more than high end fanzines, but others might be accessible via WP:LIBRARY or WP:RX. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:46, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Day Before the Revolution/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Grnrchst (talk · contribs) 14:10, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Happy to take this on for review, as I'm quite the fan of Le Guin's work. Thanks for submitting it for Women in Green's 5th Edit-a-thon! Per my reviewing style, I'll give section-by-section comments before checking the article against the GA criteria.

Thank you, I'll begin working on the comments now. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments

Background and setting

• "alternative history" Shouldn't it be "alternate history"?

  I've heard both, but I agree the latter is more common, so changed.

• Spotcheck: [9] Verified, although it seems quite closely paraphrased. Consider a slight rewrite.

  Adjusted.

• "the idealized anarchist society depicted in it" Two uses of the word "depicted" in this one sentence. Consider cutting one or replacing with a synonym.

  Done.

• "Odo's theory becomes practice" Oddly written. Consider rewriting to say "Odo's theory was put into practice".

  Okay, done.

• "after her death and the revolution she inspired" We already know that this is the last day of her life and that she inspired the revolution. I think just "after the revolution" would be enough.

  okay as to her death; but it's saying she inspired the revolution, not just the society on Anarres, so I'd rather leave it in.

• Link to private property.

  Done.

• You link twice to anarchism in this one section. One of these could be cut, or "anarchist society" possibly link to anarchy or List of anarchist communities?

  Good call; linked "anarchy"

• Citation [10] could include more details, to ease in verification. Consider adding links to John Moore and Foundation, as well as the issn 0306-4964 and ProQuest id 1312027489.

  This is a little above and beyond the GA requirements, but it's an improvement, so okay. ISSN added; is there any easy way to add proquest IDs?

  Aye, you use the id= field in the citation and then add the ProQuest template in there. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:23, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks...done.

Plot summary

• The protagonist is referred to as both "Laia" and "Odo" in this section. Consider standardising.

  Standardized to Laia

• "Sneaking out of the house she ventures into the city, but is exhausted before she walks far and is found by a housemate." This is quite an oddly-structured sentence. Consider rewriting.

  Tweaked.

Publication and reception

• Spotcheck: [12] I don't understand what I'm looking at on this webpage. How is this being used as a source for this section? Where does it give any information about The Day Before the Revolution?

  I fixed this, but was baffled as to what had happened until Mike Christie kindly enlightened me [6] so manual archive now added.

  Okay great! Thanks for fixing it. Verified it for Galaxy and Nebula Award Stories, but I don't see anything in there about The Wind's Twelve Quarters. Am I missing that in there or is it coming from another source? --Grnrchst (talk) 09:28, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Pardon me for jumping in: that website indexes magazines and anthologies separately, although it does seem inconsistent that Nebula Award Stories is in the magazines index. The anthologies index page for Le Guin is here, and it looks like it also covers Galaxy. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:03, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  You're always welcome, Mike...I could cite philsp.com again, but we already have the anthology as a reference, which is what I was relying on; adjusted and added to make that explicit.

• "More Women of Wonder (1975)" Correction: it was published in 1976.

  It was indeed. A product of moving content around no doubt, the other anthologies are from '75.

• Spotcheck: [14] Verified.
• Spotcheck: [15] Verified.
• Spotcheck: [16] Verified.
• Spotcheck: [17] Verified.
• "The Dispossessed won the Hugo and Nebula awards for best novel in the same year." This sentence could probably be cut. This article is about the short story, not the novel. It especially interferes with the flow of the paragraph, given the following sentence refers back to the short story simply as "It".

  While it may not be directly relevant, it's very unusual for an author to win those awards for two related works in different formats in the same year, so I feel it's worth keeping. I've moved it to avoid disruption; what do you think?

  Looks much better at the end of the paragraph, thanks. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Citations [21] and [22] (Publisher's Weekly) could do with some more details, like a link and/or an issn, to help in verification.

  ISSN added, but the text was emailed to me by a helpful colleague, not much to be done in the way of links.

• Spotcheck: [23] Verified. Consider adding its issn 0024-984X.

  Done.

• "Le Guin's most successful female protagonist" Most successful how? Like the character was successful in their goals or it was the best-written protagonist that Le Guin had come up with?

  The latter, but I'm not sure how to add more information without straying into OR: the source isn't focused on TDBTR, but on Eye of the Heron. I've switched Erlich and White's assessments, which implies what White is getting at, I think: does that help?

  Looks great aye. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Spotcheck: [26] Verified. Although the url provided links to the wrong page.

  I typically link to the beginning of the book, since google books often restricts access; but in this case it seems fine, so I've adjusted.

• Citations [28] and [29] could do with some more details, like a link and/or an issn, to help in verification.

  Ideally yes, but I accessed these via newspapers.com; I'm not aware of a means to make links available to those without access, though I'm not well-versed in the uses of that site. I do think an ISSN would be entirely superfluous for newspapers that famous.

  I think including the url, even if it's not universally accessible, is better than not. You can also include access indicators in the citation. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, urls added. I was once the trigger for an extended discussion at VPP about whether the "via=" parameter was promoting the databases...so I'll skip those, if it's okay with you. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

  Aye no worries. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:04, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Spotcheck: [9] Verified. Consider converting to Sfn formatting and providing more specific page numbers.

  The trouble with sfn formatting is that a reader who clicks to the full source has no way to click back to the text they were just reading, which is not a problem with regular references. As such I prefer to avoid sfn formatting unless I really need multiple page ranges. With the Spivack source I'm using 5 pages, which doesn't seem excessive to me, so I'd prefer to leave it.

• That's fine. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Spotcheck: [19] Verified.

Themes

• Spotcheck: [30] Verified.
• Wait, so is Omelas a part of the Hainish universe, and Odo was literally one of them that walked away from it? Or is Le Guin being more metaphorical here?

  A good question, but no, it isn't; or not explicitly. Le Guin's speaking conceptually. "Omelas" (like a few other stories from TWTQ) is what Le Guin calls a "psychomyth", stories that are outside space and time.

  Ah okay, that's what I figured. Thanks. :) --Grnrchst (talk) 09:29, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Lead and infobox

• Per the Manual of Style on lead sections, shouldn't the title be in italics? Or is it different for short stories?

  It is indeed different for short stories, which go in quotes.

Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   For the most part, everything is well written. There are a couple of odd sentences that could do with tightening up.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   A couple citations could do with some more detail for easier verification, but there's no problems here.

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   One case of a citation ([12]) being unclear as to how exactly it's being used.

   C. It contains no original research:

   Found no examples of OR, most spotchecks easily verified the text.

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Earwig only flags direct and attributed quotes.[7] Found one case of close paraphrasing that should probably be rewritten.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   Seems like everything that could be covered has been.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   A couple cases where it veers off to talk about The Dispossessed that could probably be trimmed.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   No obvious cases of non-neutral POV.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   Article hasn't been edited since its GA nomination. Last reversion was a self-revert done by the nominator in January 2023.

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   No images in the article. Consider adding cover art with valid fair-use rationale for the infobox. Maybe an image of Le Guin herself in one of the later sections could be helpful. Image is licensed under creative commons.

   Missed this earlier...this is very difficult to do for short stories. NFUR of cover art is valid for a book, but I don't think it could be reasonably applied to all 17 stories therein (this is Le Guin; all are probably notable, though only eight have articles at the moment). See, for instance, the discussion in the image review section here. I've added an image of the author.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   No images in the article.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   On the whole, this article is very well-written and a fantastic insight into the short story and its reception. There's a few issues currently holding it back from passing, namely a couple prose quirks and confusion around a citation. Though not a strict requirement, it could also benefit from some images. @Vanamonde: Ping me when you've addressed my comments and I'll give this another look over. Nice work on this. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:10, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Grnrchst: Thank you for a careful and helpful review. I believe I have responded to everything. In a couple of cases I've disagreed with your suggestions, but I'm happy to discuss them further. Best, Vanamonde (Talk) 17:27, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: No worries on disagreements! Think it's all good. Just wanted to check if you have any thoughts on adding images? Images aren't necessarily need for a GA, but just thought I'd see if there were any reasons for not including one. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:52, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Grnrchst: I think I added a belated comment while you were replying, see above. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:03, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, all good. I'll pass the review now. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:06, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 talk 12:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Ursula K. Le Guin's short story "The Day Before the Revolution", which won Nebula and Locus awards in 1975, was praised for its depiction of a "revolutionary icon as a curmudgeonly old woman"? Source:
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/James Dillon Armstrong
  • Comment: Further hook suggestions are always welcome.

Improved to Good Article status by Vanamonde93 (talk). Self-nominated at 05:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/The Day Before the Revolution; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Interesting book, fine detailed GA on excellent sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. In the hook, I believe one award would be enough to make the case. In the article, I wonder why death and grief are linked, at all, but I saw two of each. I'm open to other hooks if you'd rather say more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Pre-FAC review

I should be able to make a start on this today. Do you have all the Locus reviews, by the way? I think I got access to more after we last spoke about this article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks as always. It may take me a day or two to work through this but it's at the top of my list. I did work in the Locus reviews we discussed, but I'm happy to hear suggestions for points I've missed. There's also some newspaper reviews I skipped, because I didn't feel they added anything; typically a single sentence with an adjective or two. Vanamonde93 (talk) 23:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll make minor copyedits as I read through. Of course revert anything you don't like. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• In the alternate history of this universe: shouldn't this be "In this fictional universe" or something along those lines? There's no branch point apparent where the histories diverge so we can say it's "alternate", unless we mean the Hain seeding Earth, but I doubt Le Guin thought of it as an alternate history.

  This is a good question. The terms "alternate history" and "alternative history" are in fact used for the Hainish Cycle, but not very commonly. Hain does, in fact, seed earth in these stories, and that shared biological heritage is a common theme (as acknowledged by many sources). As such I used the term as what I felt was an uncontentious descriptor; if you feel it's veering into analysis, though, I can remove it. If I did, I would likely rework the preceding sentence as well, something like ""The Day Before the Revolution" takes place in Le Guin's fictional Hainish universe, in which human beings did not evolve on Earth, but on Hain." That would leave out the term "fictional universe" but avoids considerable repetition. Thoughts? Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think that would be an improvement. I think it's best to reserve "alternate history" for the genre which is explicitly about the consequences of a change in history. And I agree your proposed wording is concise. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough, done.

• Written soon after The Dispossessed (1974), "The Day Before the Revolution" is described as a prologue to that novel. That novel is set in the same planetary system: the idealized anarchist society depicted in it is based on Odo's teachings, and .... Suggest ""The Day Before the Revolution" was written soon after The Dispossessed (1974); it is described as a prologue to that novel, which is set in the same planetary system. The idealized anarchist society depicted in The Dispossessed is based on Odo's teachings, and ...".

  Done.

• Can you remind me how we know she died that night? If I recall correctly it's not explicit at the end of the story. Is it from somewhere in The Dispossessed?

  It's implied in the text, though not in a way that we could state it; but multiple reviews assume it to be true, and I'm unaware of any contesting this point. I'm okay attributing it if you feel it is necessary, but it becomes awkwardly wordy.

  No need; just couldn't remember exactly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  The precise quotes from Spivack (which I dug up for a different section) are "Her laborious climb up to her own room is in reality an ascent to her own death", and "Odo will not see the revolution she has brought about", which of course is heavily implied to be the next day. I'm happy to adjust the wording if needed. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

• A review in Galaxy described it as one of two "gems" in the same collection, and said it was "writing at its best, beautiful and deeply moving".. Suggest "A review of the same collection in Galaxy described the story as a "gem ... writing at its best, beautiful and deeply moving".

  Much more elegant, done.

• Science fiction critic George Slusser wrote that it is "harshly realistic" in its focus on death and old age.. Suggest "Science fiction critic George Slusser found it "harshly realistic" in its focus on death and old age." This is just to get rid of one of the "wrote that" usages; there are seven and it would be nice to cut more.

  Agreed. Done.

• In the lead we say multiple scholars regard the story as a marker of Le Guin's turn towards feminism. Unless I'm missing something this is only supported by Erlich and White. I don't think it's a particularly controversial point, but if there are others who say it it might be good to make a topic paragraph out of the sentences from Erlich and White.

  The turn toward feminism in this period is uncontroversial and widely attested, but if others have listed this story as an example I'm not aware off the top of my head. I'll dig through my sources again, but I'm not sure we can expand what I have very much.

  OK if you want to leave it, but could we use the sources that just say "in this period" to make the topic paragraph, and use Erlich and White to support identifying this story as one of those showing the turn towards feminism? Not a big deal if you don't see a way to weave the sources like that -- just seems like an opportunity to reinforce what you're saying about where the story fits in her career. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure that there is a way to do this without veering into OR. I've re-read a fair bit since my reply above, and while to my eye the connections are clear I don't believe they're explicit enough to say more at the moment.

• noted that Le Guin's science fiction was notable for: can we avoid having "noted" and "notable" so close together?

  Reworked.

• Can we get an introductory word for Harris-Fain?

  Done

• Writing in Extrapolation Carl Yoke stated that: suggest "Carl Yoke said in Extrapolation that".

  Done.

• Darren Harris-Fain called it a "moving depiction" of Odo, and stated that "The Day Before the Revolution" was among stories with thorough character development that demonstrated the literary worth of science fiction.. Suggest "Darren Harris-Fain called it a "moving depiction" of Odo, and said that the thorough character development in "The Day Before the Revolution" made it one of the stories that demonstrated the literary worth of science fiction."

  Much less awkward, done.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:47, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm done except for Themes; I want to have a bit more mental energy to think about that one -- maybe tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• Various pieces of her are undone over time: "pieces of her" doesn't seem very natural. Perhaps "elements of her life"?

  I did this earlier, but forgot to make note.

• ... Le Guin examines a person's essential motivations besides idealism. Odo acknowledges to herself sex and vanity, and also mulls over the happiness she had and then lost: it took me a second to realize that sex and vanity are examples of motivation. And do we need to say "a person"; is the source generalizing, or can we just say "Odo"? How about "Le Guin examines Odo's essential motivations besides idealism. Odo acknowledges to herself that both sex and vanity have motivated her, and also"?

  Slusser does actually generalize, referring to humanity, but I agree the link to motive isn't clear later in the sentence. Adjusted [8]; thoughts?

• Not sure about this, but how about taking the sentences from "Spivack analyzes Odo" to the end and making them a separate paragraph, and moving them to become the third para? Thematically they seem to fit well after the discussion of aging in para 2.

  I don't fully follow; do you mean swapping the two halves of para 3? The sentence you refer to is already in the third paragraph. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, that was a bit opaque. What I meant was that the second half of para 3, starting with "Spivack analyzes Odo", follows thematically from para 2, so if you moved that text up to become a new para 3, making the first half of the current para 3 into para 4, that might flow well. Not married to the idea, just a suggestion. No other changes to suggest; I'll read this again when you nominate it at FAC and I'm sure will support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

  I did feel like Spivack's point connects well with the other content in the paragraph, but I see your point too; I've reordered without splitting paragraphs, hopefully that's a workable via media? Vanamonde93 (talk) Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

That's everything. Looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've tried to address everything; happy to hear more responses, if you don't have further changes to suggest I'll nominate this over the weekend. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)