Talk:The Empire Strikes Back

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Former featured article The Empire Strikes Back is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 17, 2010.
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for The Empire Strikes Back:
  • Nominate for Good Article status when ready
  • Address Featured Article Review complaints
  • Change the phrase regarding budget increase after the studio fire. It reads, "the budget spiraled to," and it should be changed to, "the budget increased" or "expenses increased."

Titles Issues[edit]

Umm, I'm pretty sure this was released in theaters as Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back and not just The Empire Strikes Back. The same goes for "Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi". Also the claim "The title, number and episode never actually appeared until after the release of "The Phantom Menace" is incorrect. Despite popular belief, the films were not given numbers for the 1997 Special Editions, nor the 2004 DVD releases. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope was just called Star Wars in 1977, but was given its number and subtitle for it's 1981 re-release. Empire and Jedi were originally released with their respective numbers and subtitles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 00717F (talkcontribs) 16:18, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

This is correct. The original movie didn't have an episode or the subtitle "A New Hope". The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were both released with the episode number. S806 (talk) 01:38, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that is correct. The vintage poster on IMDB for instance just reads The Empire Strikes Back, with Star Wars sort of wrapped around but not mention of episode. EDIT: heh, it's the same poster used on this page. Mezigue (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
But it is true. I have the original theatrical release movie, it says Episode 5 in the movie. Empire and Return both had the episode number in the original release. S806 (talk) 15:29, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Are you talking about the scrolling text at the beginning or what's written on the box?Mezigue (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
The original title of the movie [1] IMDB says "Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi" (original title). It has always been that. S806 (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
As well as Empire strikes back. S806 (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
It's not just about using the official title for the article title. WP:CRITERIA comes into play as well. For example, Borat is officially a much longer title, but it is simple and doable to render it in the current state. Similarly, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are universally recognized in their concise states; additional detail is just extraneous and can be mentioned in the opening sentence. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not arguing that the page be moved to "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back", however the actual title needs to be the first thing in the header lead, and at the top of the info box. Those have always been the official titles, and the page needs to reflect that. S806 (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the infobox, but I think it is appropriate for the opening sentence of the lead section. (Think about actors' Wikipedia articles; full names in the opening sentences, but common names in infoboxes.) Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:18, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
The full title and the four word title have both been in the lead, in bold, all along. What's changed is which one is first and which one is second. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we put the true title first, and what it's also known as second. It's the way titles work.S806 (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
They were released as The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi and the episodes numbers were incorporated into the titles much later. I have no idea why you claim otherwise when all the posters, trailers, VHS sleeves and reviews of the time document this! Mezigue (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
This isn't true. The only one that was released without an episode number is the original star wars. Evidence "With this new backstory in place, Lucas decided that the series would be a trilogy, changing Empire Strikes Back from Episode II to Episode V in the next draft." Star Wars S806 (talk) 20:57, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
What is that sentence and how does it prove anything? And what is this "original theatrical release movie" you claimed to have yesterday? What format is it and what does it say on the packaging? Mezigue (talk) 14:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
I agree with S806, Empire and Jedi were originally, theatrically released into theaters with their Episode numbers and subtitles, regardless of what the posters, trailers, VHS sleeves, reviews etc. say. The only film, in all of Star Wars, that wasn't released with a number was the original Star Wars, which was given its number and subtitle for the 1981 re-release. From May 21, 1980 to May 19, 2005 all Star Wars films were released with a Title, Number, and Subtitle. Saying "The Empire Strikes Back (later released as Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back)" is like saying "The Phantom Menace (later released As Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace)"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 00717F (talkcontribs) 04:00, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
No it isn't, because The Phantom Menace had Episode I on the posters, trailers, etc., at the time of its first release, and The Empire Strikes Back did not. A film is known by the title used in the promotional materials. That is the WP:COMMONNAME. Very few in the public notice if the title on the film itself is different. So the lead is quite accurate. - Gothicfilm (talk) 06:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
"Empire and Jedi were originally, theatrically released into theaters with their Episode numbers and subtitles, regardless of what the posters, trailers, VHS sleeves, reviews etc. say." Are you actually serious? They were secretly called something else than what they were called? Mezigue (talk) 09:06, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Both of you aren't listening. It doesn't matter what the posters, trailers, etc., call it. They were both released into theaters as Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi. You want proof? Go to any thrift shop and pull out a VHS from the 80s. The number and subtitle will be there, I promise. They weren't released just as The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi. And yes Mezigue I am dead serious. And no they weren't "secretly called something else". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 00717F (talkcontribs) 16:18, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
It's you who isn't listening. You need to read WP:OFFICIALNAMES and WP:COMMONNAME. - Gothicfilm (talk) 20:47, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Like this VHs from the 80s of The Empire Strikes Back or this VHS from the 80s of Return of the Jedi you mean? Mezigue (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, if you buy then play those home vidoes, the opening crawls will clearly say "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back" and "Star Wars Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi". I bet my bank account on it. And no Gothicfilm, I don't care what the rules say, the official titles of these films are in the opening crawls in their original releases! Bite it!00717F (talk) 00:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Well yes, it says the episode number before the title in the crawl, but it wasn't part of the title back then. Hence not appearing anywhere else until the 90s. Mezigue (talk) 21:30, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Given that a number of the people posting here were not alive when the films were released, as a primary witness I can confirm that the phrase "Episode V" was NOT used in promotion for the film back in the 1980s. Despite "Episode V" appearing in the crawl -- confusing a whole load of cinema-goers in the process, who were not aware of the re-numbering/re-titling of the first movie -- all posters and merchandise referred to it only as either "The Empire Strikes Back" or "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back". (You can see this clearly in these images from the period: London Evening News front page Cinema hoarding) (Indeed, much of the mainstream media of the day referred to it as "Star Wars 2".) Mrstonky (talk) 02:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

"One of the six main films"[edit]

When are we changing this? Should we do it now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:36, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

When another film is released. Mezigue (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Of course, who knows when that'll happen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:55, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I've edited the article to remove the reference. There's little point stating the number of films, because this information can be found in the main Star Wars franchise article. After all, you wouldn't describe Thunderball saying "one of the 23 films" Mrstonky (talk) 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Star Wars (film) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)