Talk:The Passion of the Christ

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[edit] Supidity

OK. I will try to explain this in a way that even atheist libtards can understand, using analogy.

If you went to Wikipedia to read about one of the most sacred events in your cosmology, say "Woodstock" and the entry began "Woodstock was a movie produced by Joe Blow in 1969 about a music festival and shot entirely in CinemaScope. Joe Blow was later arrested for cocaine possession and sentenced to 2 years in prison" would you think the article was a good one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.160.152 (talk) 18:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

Hey, I'm not going to change anything on this article, but this whole article seems to have a very biased focus. It seems to me from reading it, that whoever wrote this article were probably atheists, and probably hate Christianity and Catholicism. Now like I said, I'm not going to change anything, but please, try and avoid the biased overtones. For reaction, the article places a very heavy emphasis on how criticised the film was from Protestants, yet everything I watched in the news showed Jews and atheists bashing the film, and Protestants embracing it. In fact, every protestant I know or have ever heard of loved the movie and supported it! Anyways, all I'm saying is try and watch the bias; this is wikipedia remember. DurotarLord (talk) 19:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally am a Non-Denominational Christian. Non only to Wikipedia's rules of editing, but to respect of other people's beliefs, all articles on Wikipedia is needs to be unbiased. --75.185.110.190 (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
As an atheist I feel that the article is biased towards a Christian perspective. For example, the opening statement assumes that Jesus was an actual real person, and no one knows this to be true. The truth is that it is almost certain that Jesus is just a myth. The opening should read that it is based on the story of a character in the fictional account known as the New Testament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.116.98 (talk) 01:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Jesus doesn't exist? Thats the funniest thing I think I've ever heard. If you're not going to add anything to the discussion go elsewhere. No one wants to read you're deranged BS anyways. By the way, I thought the article was well-written. The film was obviously controversial in some circles, but I don't remember hearing anyone debating the FACT Jesus existed. Mr2b (talk) 05:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. That's just plain stupid. Sheesh, next thing these deranged BS-spouting atheist idiots are gonna claim is that Gandalf never existed! TomorrowTime (talk) 08:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK, the historicity of Jesus is well established. The evidence is weak but sufficient to confirm the existence of Jesus. Proof of his magic powers is another thing entirely, however.--Sus scrofa (talk) 11:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Simpsons

I believe that there is a short part in a Simpson's show where the family's TV shows a commercial about passion of the salad or something like that. It's suppose to be satirical to both this movie and the veggietales —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.8.47 (talk) 00:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plot Rewite/Shortening

Obviously the plot in this article is far too long, it's also making the page huge. It needs to be rewritten completely, or have parts trimmed out. I suggest the former. Why? Because the plot summary itself is poorly written, sometimes using broken English. Also, overly long plot summaries can constitute a copyright violation--which is a very, very bad thing. Suggestions, comments? --PureRED - Kyle Floyd 06:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Nine months later, it's some 500 words shorter but still, at 2,000 words, far too long.

On Wikipedia, plot summary lengths tend to jump from stubs to long lengths in a single edit or series of edits by one editor, and this is the case here [1]. The plot summary was added as a stub in July, 2006, and expanded to 1600 words in a single edit by [2].

I'm going to suggest a radical rewrite. With some notable exceptions (for instance, the dream of Mary, mother of Jesus, and the temptation of Jesus by Satan) the plot is derived directly from the accounts in the four canonical gospels, and covers the events from Jesus' vigil at Gethsemane to his rising on the third day after his death. Here's a sketch of how I'd treat the plot:

The plot adheres largely to the accounts found in the Canonical gospels of the New Testament, and covers the period from Jesus' vigil in the Garden of Gethsemane up to his resurrection.

There are some embellishments. Jesus is tempted in the garden by a personified Satan, who appears as an androgynous albino. Mary, mother of Jesus, awakes from a dream with feelings of foreboding and quotes from the Passover Seder, Why is this night different than other nights, and Mary Magdalene replies with a traditional response: Because once we were slaves and we are slaves no longer. When questioned by Caiaphas, Jesus pronounces the ineffable Name of God in his response, which justifies Caiaphas' subsequent charge of blasphemy before witnesses. Herod Antipas is depicted as an effeminate homosexual. The people in the crowd that demands the freedom of Barabbas rather than Jesus have been paid to do so by Caiaphas.

An event similar to the story of Saint Veronica is in this account, but the woman is named "Seraphia" in the cast list. Although it is one of the Stations of the Cross, the story of Veronica wiping Jesus' brow with her veil on the Via Dolorosa is not present in the canonical gospels.

I think this and a reference to the source materials would be better than the long detailed repetition we have here. --Tony Sidaway 21:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The section "Differences from the New Testament" contains quite a few more differences that could go into the new plot summary. --Tony Sidaway 17:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that the current plot section is very confusing, in particular to a non-Christian reader or someone who doesn't feel familiar with the story. In my view this section badly needs further explanation of plot devices (no mention is made as to who Barabbas is and Herod Antipas is left completely without further explanation) and none of the events accounted are placed in any particular scene. I have never seen the movie, so I cannot write a synopsis but someone who has should.

Einaraxel (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anti semitism

I took off one of the headers, as it was doubled and it's obvious (at least for me) that the antisemitism header was intended to be secondary to the "critical perceptions" one and not have its own second level header. I had to change the text a little to make both header's text match, but there's still space for improvement. --200.80.196.210 (talk) 18:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quick change re: critical reception

The old wording that, according to Rotten Tomatoes, 51% of critics praised the film made it seem inaccurately like a few hundred people decided black and white whether they praised it or did not praise it. No, this score of 51% is an average of various scores, and the wording was changed to reflect that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.58.200 (talk) 08:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2 "Timothy K. Beal" paragraphs in the "Source material" section

It seems to me that Mr. Beal could be used as a source in this section for a claim such as "The Passion of the Christ is based primarily on the Gospel of John." However, Mr. Beal's thoughts on why and if different groups like the movie do not seem relevant in a section about sources. ShadwSrch (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian version

The Messiah (Iranian film), Robert C Prenic (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Medical advice

I watched this film when it was broadcast on the Channel 4 network last night. There is no way that anyone would have survived such a brutal flogging, and certainly not be able to stand or speak afterwards, let alone carry a cross up a hill. Is there any medical advice on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.253.66 (talk) 16:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You might be surprised what a person can endure. Google 'Aron Ralston', for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.94.96 (talk) 01:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] delete cultural impact paragraph?

this section makes some pretty sensational claims - that the movie caused felons to turn themselves in - based on very obscure and isolated referencces. I have been unable to find any authorative publication that backs up those references. Also, one of the references is misrepresented. It talks about a man who (supposedly) chose not to commit suicide based on the movie. Yet this is used as an example of a felon turning themselves in. I think this section should be deleted unless some more concrete evidence is found and provided. If it is not deleted it needs to be rewritten in order to correctly represent the articles it cites. 122.108.25.170 (talk) 15:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historical inaccuracies

In a book about the history of the latin language by Prof. em. Munich University Wilfried Stroh, I read that the usage of latin in the film is historically wrong. At the time Jesus lived the lingua franca around the Mediterrenian Sea (and beyond) was ancient greek. Thus it was the main secondary language of ethnies that didn't speak it as their mother tongue and was primarily used as the world language of trade. Latin would most-probably not have been used in Pilate's announcements and the discussions with the jewish priests (greek instead). Can somebody of you delve into this issue? I have no primary resources around now, but I guess it can be obtained by looking into some ancient history books or special encyclopedias like Pauly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.5.199.242 (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Me again. In the german Wikipedia article of the film this criticism is stated explicitly, quoting Carsten Peter Thiede, an expert on New Testament exgesis. I think that's enough authorization for including a note in the english article as well, that the film's usage of latin is wrong. (It may be that Pilate spoke latin with his wife, but not with the crowd in front of his palace). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.5.199.242 (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protestant section

First of all; the Pope, who is clearly not a protestant, should not be put in the "protestant kritisim" section.

Secondly, most of the protestant critisism of the film is not that it contains extra material, or even that they show Mary, who is in the Gospel account in case the protestants actually want to read their bible for a change; but from the fact that the film is "too Christian". In the film the crucificion is directly linked to the last supper and all Christians (Assyrians, Coptics, Armenians, Maronites, Chaldeans, Ethiopians, Syrians, Greeks, Slavs and Of Course Catholics most of all) celebrate that link in their Liturgy (Mass). The protestants on the other hand have continuelly called the film "A Catholic Trap". Here is just one web site but there are many, oh so many. http://www.pawcreek.org/articles_pcm/end_times/passion_christ.htm

I have also seen this message of "don't go see the Passion because it is too Christian" printed in magazine articles for evangelicals and in chick track look a likes put on my car. Clearly the protestants have a problem with Christianity and the way this film promotes it.

On the other hand, Christians the world over have accepted the film and are very gratefull for it, even if they do not agree theologically 100% with Gibson or his actors. The Assyrian Church of the East in Chicago showed the film during the Homoly at Liturgy (without subtitles). The Oriental Orthodox have praised the movie and the Eastern Orthodox's only complaint was the lack of Greek in the film or on the sign over Christ's head. I have yet to meet a Catholic who does not like the film. I know Catholics who purposefully stayed away from the Nativity Story because of conserns that it misrepresented the faith and the nature of the relationship between Mary and Joseph but even they love the Passion. Even a muslim woman with whom I used to work praised the film; even though she does not believe the crucificion even happened.

Real Christian and conservative muslims and even Jews praise the film but the evengelicals call it a "Catholic Trap" and denounce the film for being too Christian. That is what needs to be put in the "protestant critisism" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.127.251.137 (talk) 03:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

"I have yet to meet a Catholic who does not like the film." Uh, how about the German catholic leaders, who, together with Protestant and Jewish leaders, heavily criticised the movie? But hey, given that you feel you have authority to say that Protestants aren't Christians, I bet you also feel you have authority to say that Cardinals aren't Catholics... If the section on "Protestant reaction" has a problem, then it is that it -like you- equates Protestantism with Evangelicalism, which is an insult to Protestants the world over who have a much more moderate view than the fanatics monopolising the designation "Protestant" in the US. --84.46.3.237 (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Massive Edits

I just finished some rather massive edits to the article, doing the following:

I tried to find sources for a lot of the uncited stuff. That which I couldn't, I removed, if it was minor little factoids that I didn't feel losing would harm the article. Anything major but uncited, I left in. It still needs cited though, and I will return to it as I have time.
I put the two "anti-semitism" controversies together in a section titled "controversies", along with all the other controversy.
I renamed the "parody" section to "popular culture" and removed the trivia tag. I have seen plenty of articles that have listings of references of that topic in popular culture, I don't consider it a "trivia" section that needs to be removed or the facts put elsewhere.
I tried to re-arrange certain paragraphs into the sections or order I thought flowed better.
Reformatted the citations into citation templates, it's just a personal preference, but I think they're easier to read that way.
Changed the reference list to a two-column format.

And that's about it. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes with what I've changed. If anyone wants to change anything I've done, go for it. I just saw the article needed some help and tried to provide it with such. Lets use this section also to suggest further improvements, the article definitely needs it. raven1977 (talk) 22:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical accuracy

I think the movie did a pretty good job as far as movies go. The makers followed the gospels nearly verbatum. One thing that stands out that is not biblical is Satan in the opening scene in the garden. He tried to convince Jesus he could not bear the sin of the world. Satan did not know. Not even the apostles knew he was dying for sin. The apostle Paul called it a mystery, and that it was hidden in scriptures. So that in fact, Satan would push people to do what they did.

He would not have sent the son of David to the cross if he knew the consequences. Satan thought he was beating Israel, which were God's people.

When Jesus told the apostles he was going to his death, Peter rebuked him. They expected the messiah to rule as king, like prophecy foretold. They didn't know he had to die first. I won't be making any changes to the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.251.0.193 (talk) 00:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I also found that to be a blatant fabrication, although I won't speculate on what the devil may or may not know. I added it to the "Differences from the Traditional Passion" section. Albeit, I am comparing to the actual gospels. I do not know how the "Traditional" Passion is presented. --Bertrc (talk) 00:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. It is a fabrication, you are right. God is smarter than everybody else, but I won't put that in the article. :)

1 Corinthians 2:8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.68.234.2 (talk) 12:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is the fact that the scene of the Devil tempting Jesus in the garden in the film (a direct contradiction to the scriptural account) not listed in this section? According to the scriptures, the Devil had no power whatsoever over Jesus, only daring to tempt him once (in the wilderness prior to Jesus' ministry) and being dismissed easily and without consideration. 65.30.180.228 (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't speculate on whether or not it was easy for Jesus, in the desert, nor whether the devil only tempted him once (only one instance is listed in the scriptures, but that is not the same) Hoever, the movie scene in the garden is certainly not recounted in scripture. I had added that fact to the article, but, it looks like somebody replaced it (as well as the bit about Judas being tormented by children) with an editorial. I have reverted.--Bertrc (talk) 20:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] R Rating

Is it relevant to have the mention of the R rating and the reason for it in the opening paragraph? Many Wikipedia articles have little or no mention of the film's rating. I am not saying it should be mentioned in the opening and I'm not saying it shouldn't. But could some of you reply here with your opinions on this issue? Perhaps the fact that the film is the most successful R-rated film in the U.S. is reason enough for its mention. But still, should we have a big bold mention of the reason for rating in the third sentence? What do you think? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 04:05, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] International box office: the matrix

The Passion is by far the top grossing R movie domestically but was surpassed by a healthy margin internationally by The Matrix Reloaded...I felt that this is of note and added it to the international BO section (see BOM for verification on my numbers). If anyone feels it does not belong I welcome discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.15.172.154 (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Watchmen holds the record now; even a week before it opened —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.224.220.1 (talk) 18:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew?

As a native Hebrew speaker, I can tell you there's no real Hebrew in the movie. It doesn't sound like modern nor biblical Hebrews and without subtitles I could figure out only a few words pronounced mostly incorrectly. As the errors in Latin have been mentioned, this too may possibly be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.187.94 (talk) 23:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, its actually in Aramaic, the language Jesus (and others in Israel) spoke during that time period. Mr2b (talk) 05:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

He wasn't speaking about Aramic but about the few lines in Hebrew which had bad pronouncing and a flavor of American English accent.Actualy I understand them all and a lot of the Aeamic which share a lot with Hebrew-but the pronouncing was seriously flawed.--Gilisa (talk) 19:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] In media res

Is this phrase really that commonly known? I dislike it when people feel the need to put in phrases that 90% of people will have to click on to understand. Jabberwockgee (talk) 18:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Rating controversy

Was there any controversy surrounding the rating in countries other then New Zealand? I know here there was some controversy as conservative Christian groups objected to the rating, arguing it was too high even though the same groups were also usually arguing that violent movies were rated too low. E.g. [3]. If this is a wider issue then it belongs in the article IMHO Nil Einne (talk) 08:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] POV statement removed

"After early and unwarranted accusations of anti-Semitism" is a statement of opinion. Because people disagree on what constitutes anti-Semitic literature and anti-Semitic tropes, it's impossible to definitively state that accusations of anti-Semitism are unwarranted, and since the controversy is ongoing, it's a clearly partial statement. I removed "and unwarranted."

--173.76.115.220 (talk) 08:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Good job man. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 13:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli film

I understood that part of the film shots were taken in Israel, but it still don't make the passion for an Israeli movie. Please remove it from the "Israeli film" category.--Gilisa (talk) 17:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Kill Christ

Not every college kid who gets threatened with a lawsuit is notable, sorry. The article doesn't even touch on the real lawsuits pertaining to the movie. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 16:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Lucifer

Luther: there is a film called "Luther" which includes lightning, and was considering relevance with Mr. Gibson's story concerning lightning striking one of the actors on the set, on a clear day, and I believe it was a desert scene. Persons paying for prayers on the sidewalk, and being opressed by those who slander, and are not being realistic, or providing places for voice of the people. I study signs and anomalous activity. Sometimes persons tend to get a little full of themselves. Pan, Kabbalah75.201.43.164 (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)