Talk:Theodor Herzl

Did he say it?

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . . I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”.

I read that this was a quote by Theodor Herzel. Does anyone know if this is true?

I am quite sure he neither said nor meant it. It is absolutely out of character; Herzl was a man of grandiose visions, stressing the positive to the point of one-sidedness. One of the problems with these "quotes" is that they might be quoted as quote from somewhere else, and to find out you have to follow this chain up backwards to the original source, which is both tedious and difficult, and often impossible.

He did say it. It's in his published diaries. One would need to read it to see whether he was serious, or if it was an outburst along the lines of, "This isn't working, I should do something crzy." He suffered from depression so an outburst is possible. 88.155.212.99 17:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. Give the exact quote, with page, source etc., so others can check it. What Herzl has said was that he considers (I quote from memory) antisemitism a kind of "character-training" for Jews - which is in line with is tendency to always stress the positive and has nothing to do with the conspiracy-rant ascribed to him above. (Fuxmann)

Theodor Herzl: Diary, Part I, pg 16. See also pg 68. More here: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/zanda.cfm 81.158.224.8 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)Alice (I don't have an account, sorry)

You find these "quotes" on the "Jews-Against-Zionism"'s webpage, but not on the places mentioned above in Herzl's diaries, which can be found on http://www.literature.at/webinterface/library/ALO-BOOK_V01?objid=12794&zoom=1&ocr=&page=16&gobtn=Go%21 (the original pagination on the bottom of the page differs from the digital pagination in the search mask) . Fuxmann 05:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there was a typo or if the link is to the edited diaries or what, but I have heard from reliable and zionist sources that he said such things. Don't have any confirmation sources though, but If someone is better than I at searching The Jewish Press' archives, I believe there was an article last year on the subject.173.54.16.169 (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I mean: Somebody insinuates "somewhere, something, somehow..." and nonsense becomes truth or at least probability. Please check the German original. Fuxmann (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

English translation

"From April, 1896, when the English translation of his Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") appeared,"

is it correct to say that the English translation was so important? I was under the impression that Zionism pre-WWI was mostly a German and Eastern European project. Dinopup 17:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dreyfus Affair

It is significant (and good) to see an accurate if slightly controversial (to some) reference to the Dreyfus Affair in this article. I studied the history of Zionism at university, and have long held the belief that this affair had a very minor impact on Herzl, and that he may have later exploited the matter for his own political ends. He did indeed think initially that Dreyfus was guilty and showed almost no concern for the case, yet later wrote that Dreyfus was innocent not because the charges were part of an anti-semetic conspiracy (even though that was indeed the major factor), but because, as a Jew holding an office of responsibility and public service, he could not possibility have commited any crime in the first place: he wrote "A Jew who, as an officer on the general staff, has before him an honorable career, cannot commit such a crime . . . The Jews, who have so long been condemned to a state of civic dishonor, have, as a result, developed an almost pathological hunger for honor, and a Jewish officer is in this respect specifically Jewish." Source: biography of Herzl (based on that by Alex Bein) included in translation of Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") (Dover; ISBN 0-486-25849-1) 86.17.246.110 12:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The way this issue is taught, and popularly referred to, in Israel is that Herzl was not concerned at all by whether Dreyfus was guilty or not. What did shock him was the fact that the crowds were shouting "death to the Jews", as if all Jews were guilty, even though only one person was on trial. It was witnessing this event that caused him to understand that the Jews have no future in Europe (since Antisemitism is not rational and therefore cannot be rationally combatted), and therefore they must live in a land of their own.

-Sangil 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

May I add parenthetically you seem to have missed the point about Herzl thinking that Dreyfus had to be innocent because he was Jewish. Isn't that just as bad as thinking that he had to be guilty because he was Jewish? Hardly a rational opinion - his views (reported and cited above) were equally bigoted as the baying crowd's. I'd say that is something which should be included in any teachings of the case: you wouldn't qoute an anti-Semite in an essay criticising Judaism, would you. 86.7.208.240 23:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

As no-one had bothered to reply, and there are no sources to back the "Dreyfus Affair did not affect Hertzl" claim, I have commented it out. Please bring relevant sources before re-inserting it into the article.

-Sangil 17:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Wagnerites

Would someone like to explain in what way Herzl was a "Wagnerite"? Tomer^talk 01:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Herzl and Rhodes

Does anyone mention the relationship between Herzl and Cecil Rhodes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.232.97 (talk • contribs) 00:57, 25 June 2006

Herzl's untimely death

It occurs to me that this article is leaving out a huge detail, namely, why did Herzl die at the age of 44? Was it by an accident, or was he murdered?

The popular opinion is that he died out of depression after not succeeding to persuade neither the Turks or the Germans to give the Jews territory in Palestine. TFighterPilot 22:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the popular opinion was that he died because he had a weak heart and he insisted on working to hard trying to get his work done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.48.216 (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Prior to 1896 & link to ProtoZionists

The Herzl timeline here is excellent and contains a good deal of detail on Herzls activity (prior to April 1896 the point at which this article currently dates his political work). Unfortunately there is nothing in the current article (or much in the Herzl timeline) about Herzls petitioning of the Rothschilds. eg.

"Originally he [Herzl] had hoped to influence the Rothschild family to support the building of a Jewish State, but when this plan failed he turned to the general public. Der Judenstaat, an elaboration of his Address to the Rothschilds [this is what originally appears in Hrzl's diary as ""Rede an die Rothschilds"], sets forth his proposal for a Jewish State." source

Previous petitions to influential families such as the Rothschild by Proto Zionist like Zvi Hirsch Kalischer were made in a similar vein. Is it possible someone can include some detail on this early work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.226.213 (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

City of Birth

Herzl is usually said to be born in Budapest but in this article, it says that he was born in Zemun. Does anyone has a source for that information ? Abrahami 22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:Herzldohanyi.jpg

I find it quite odd that three languages are represented at this plaque, but not Herzl's own language. Harry Barrow (talk) 12:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

family

I removed the following statement from the article;

In 2006 the remains of two of his children were moved from Bordeaux, France, and placed alongside their father.<ref>Herzl's children reburied in Israel. [http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=10234&s=1 Canadian Jewish News 28 September 2006]</ref>

The link is dead and the article name isn't given, so unfortunately I can't chase it down to see what it actually said. But I have stood next to Herzl's tomb on top of Mt. Herzl, and I can say definitively that there are none others around it- it is completely solitary. So even if his children were moved there, the wording would need to be changed so that it does not seem like they were buried directly beside him, because unless their graves are unmarked, I don't think that this was the case.

Of course, one other possibility does exist- the words on the tomb read just "הרצל" (Herzl), and nothing else. So could it be possible that the remains of more then one person from the Herzl family are interred within there? Somebody would need to clarify. Rudy Breteler (talk) 04:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the cjnews link is now dead. However I Googled "Herzl Bordeaux" and found many others. The first two are http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/764120.html and http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home/About/Chairman/Archive/2006/sep25.htm. Both confirm the reburial of the children, and the second is by a participant to the ceremony in Bordeaux. As for the inscription, I would assume that it was made years ago when only the father was buried there, and that it was decided not to change it for the 2006 reburial of the children.

Perhaps you would like to reinsert the statement with reference to these links (or others which are still active) to replace the cjnews link. Dirac66 (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Trivia

Jenő Heltai (born: Eugen Herzl; 1871-1957), the great hungarian writer and poet was his cousin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.236.34 (talk) 20:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Theodor Herzl even offered his obviously literary gifted cousin, then still "Eugen Herzl", a job at his newspaper - which the ardent Hungarian nationalist declined. He did not want to write in German. Fuxmann (talk) 07:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian Jewish not Austrian?

You should change the initial description to Hungarian Jewish not Austrian Jewish...? Herzl was definitely a Hungarian Jew...or do you know something I don't know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hkp-avniel (talk • contribs) 14:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

When Herzl was born Pest-Buda (later Budapest) was part of the Habsburg Empire, later - in 1867 - this became the Austrio-Hungarian Monarchy. Definitely not the Kingdom of Hungary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.144.248 (talk) 06:08, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Atheist

The text currently says: "In spite of his Jewish ethnicity, Herzl was an avowed atheist." However, the note in question (Note #1) establishes only that someone asserted that Herzl was a "self-confessed atheist," it does not establish that as a fact. --DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Judaism, as his life and writings make abundantly clear, meant more to Herzl than ethnicity. Herzl was no atheist - rather a late self-discovering Jew. In his later years he consciously adapted many Jewish religious laws and customs into his personal life and that of his family. (Fuxmann (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC))

Fuxmann, do you have sources for that? Debresser (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

How would someone's being an atheist have anything to do with their being Jewish? Many Jews are atheists. It doesn't stop them from being Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 01:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Herzl's adaption of many Jewish religious laws into his later personal life is well documented in Amos Elon's Herzl-biography, his diaries and many anecdotes, as is his positive attitude towards religious Judaism, even if he never pretended or wanted to live as an orthodox Jew himself. But this has nothing to do with the "atheism" attributed to him by enemies of his political beliefs. I have not found anything remotely resembling a "confession of atheism" anywhere in his mature writings.Fuxmann (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

A few small things

1. Can somebody add the date of death of his wife? Since we have all these interesting details about his family, this is a detail we must have.
2. Can somebody add the dates of birth of his children?
3. How come his son converted to Catholicism? Compare this with the discussion in the previous section which claims he was interested in Judaism rather than being atheist.

Debresser (talk) 19:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I am more than suprised that no Zionist should be actively involved with making this article better since August 2009. Debresser (talk) 10:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The marriage of Herzl was terrible; the son was circumcised when he was twelve - exactly in the course of the late "Judaizing" of the father described above, and the parental pressure on the son - whom Herzl imagined becoming the first "Doge" of the newly founded Jewish state - must have been heavy. And then he lost his father very early. So it can be easily imagined that he might have felt repelled by anything "Jewish" and tried to find solace in Christianity. Something similar is happening today in Germany, where the daughter of a highly respected leader of German Jewry has become what politely can only be described as "highly critical" of Israel and World-Jewry - complete with fantasies of Jewish world-conspiracy. Fuxmann (talk) 17:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Debresser - the page is being improved. More to do. 7-31-2010

Style

The article is badly written, with peculiar tenses and awkward repetitions. It needs a good cleanup. Marshall46 (talk) 10:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Another issue is the fact that the article uses the present tense almost exclusively from the point of Der Judenstaad. This style of writing should probably be avoided in an encyclopedia. Joefromrandb (talk) 16:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)