Talk:Theoren Fleury

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blp[edit]

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I have removed material from blp=yes that does not comply with our policy on the biographies of living persons. Biographical material must always be referenced from reliable sources, especially negative material. Negative material that does not comply with that must be immediately removed. Note that the removal does not imply that the information is either true or false.

Please do not reinsert this material unless you can provide reliable citations, and can ensure it is written in a neutral tone. Please review the relevant policies before editing in this regard. Editors should note that failure to follow this policy may result in the removal of editing privileges.--Docg 19:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

NHL Q[edit]

In this article it states that if he came back to the NHL he would play for Calgary. I don't understand, why can't he return to the NHL. Is it that he only wants to play for calgary and they don't want him, or is he somehow having a problem reentering the NHL? He is a talented player and I find it really hard to believe the NHL would be crazy enough to not accept him (and I'm not a Calgary fan). Maybe he just doesnt want to return to the NHL but why, when the league he plays in seems much worse (standard wise)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.249.55 (talk) 06:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

He needs to be certified by league doctors before he can play again, he's under indefinite suspension under the substance abuse program. After that happens, he can play for any team that will have him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.103.68 (talk) 22:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ambiguity[edit]

Fleury did not score 1000 points during the 1989 Stanley Cup playoffs, he scored 5 Points. He scored 1088 Points during his regular season NHL career, and 79 during his NHL playoff career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JYDK (talkcontribs) 18:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Formatting Error[edit]

The medals table is flush right instead of centred. Is that intentional? I think it creates an ugly page. Durwoodie (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It is intended to flush right. I suspect you are viewing on a screen with a lower resolution, forcing the stats tables below, rather than having the table sit alongside. This is only a temporary spot for the table, as I intend to write a prose section on Fleury's international play which will incorporate the medal table. See how Jarome Iginla is set up, for an example. Resolute 22:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Allegations of Sexual Abuse[edit]

Corrected a poorly-worded recent addition on this subject and provided a reference to the CBC rather than TSN. The mention of the Fifth Estate interview will need to be ameded, with amended references, once the interview airs on October 16. Durwoodie (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm expecting a fair bit of changes on this aspect of Fleury's story, especially on Saturday when the Canwest papers publish an exerpt from the book across Canada. I am working to bring this article to FA, but as of yet am unsure if this history should be left in the "off the ice" section, or integrated into his junior hockey history. The latter would help explain the erratic on-ice behaviours/alcoholism that are mentioned throughout his career. Resolute 22:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
IMO it should be left in the off-ice activities section because any sexual abuse was not an on-ice activity. (I say "any" because it's a logical fallacy to infer that, just because James abused Sheldon Kennedy and Fleury says James abused him, Fleury must be telling the truth.) Durwoodie (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
On second thought, I've just split the allegations of sexual abuse into a separate section. If anyone feels strongly about that, feel free to revert. Durwoodie (talk) 23:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the new revision by Resolute is better than my version. I'm not sure how much value there is in including the name of a ghostwriting hack as the author, but it is an encyclopedic fact, so I'm not going to take it out. Durwoodie (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Theoren Fleury/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 17:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:
Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:
Citations to reliable sources, where required:
  • Wally worked as a truck driver and maintenance worker at the arena in Russell", source?
  • The Flames were defeated in game seven by the Oilers, ending their season. Source?
No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:
Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  • Images should have WP:ALT text.

Overall:

Pass or Fail:

I place it the review on hold to allow for these minor changes to be made.--Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 17:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well that's easy enough. :) All fixed. Resolute Lest We Forget 17:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick fix, I'm now passing the article. Good work.--Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 18:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Cool, thanks! Resolute Lest We Forget 19:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Unofficial peer review (Steve Smith)[edit]

I'm reviewing this article at User:Resolute's request. Because I may not have time for a full review, I'm placing my comments here rather than on the PR page, since I'm concerned that the latter approach might prevent another reviewer—one who does have time to do the whole thing properly—from helping out. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Fleury, at least when he wasn't scoring on the Oilers. My comments follow.

  • "At times the smallest player in the NHL..." I think this needs a cite, either here or at a later point in the article.
  • "...and made two attempts to win the Allan Cup." I feel like this needs to be changed to more fully explain it, but I can't figure out how offhand. I'll take another look at it later.
  • I've called Playing with Fire an autobiography, which I think is a common characterization of biographies co-written by the subject; if for some reason it isn't an appropriate descriptor here, feel free to change it.

More to come, I hope. Steve Smith (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

    • It is an autobiography. McLellan-Day, so far as I am aware, was more or less just consulting. Once you read the book, you'd know right away it's Fleury's words, lol. Resolute 02:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "...and promised to recruit him to play junior hockey for the Warriors." I'm a little unclear here on the distinction between promising to recruit him and actually recruiting him; would some modifier like "when he was old enough" be appropriate?
  • "He found that the best way to protect himself was to intimidate his opponents, and to be a little "crazy" on the ice." My inclination is to reword as "...intimidate his opponents by being a little...", but it's possible that "intimidating his opponents" and "being a little crazy" are distinct concepts. Are they? If so, how did Fleury intimidate his opponents, given his size?
  • "Fleury retained this style of play throughout his hockey career, routinely getting the better of opponents..." What is meant by "getting the better of" in this context? Besting them physically?

Still more to come, assuming I find the time. Steve Smith (talk) 07:39, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

  • "Although it was expected, the trade shocked fans in Calgary." I think this might go beyond the realm of paradox into outright contradiction.
  • The jersey anecdote seems somewhat out of place, since the material both immediately before and immediately after deals with the trade.
  • It might be worth mentioning the terms to which he signed in New York in the paragraph that deals with his demands and what he says went on between him and Calgary before the trade.
  • I'm a little puzzled as the chronology: we're told that he was traded to Avalanche and that he then signed with the Rangers, and then we're told about his first game with Colorado?

More later. Steve Smith (talk) 12:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

  • "...when it was announced that he had again entered..." Do we know who announced it? If so, could it be reworded to the active voice?
  • "...for violating the terms of his aftercare program." What is the aftercare program? Is it the league substance abuse program? Is it a proper noun? If he entered the program voluntarily, how could he be suspended as a result?
  • "He was not initially suspended..." Initially?
  • There's a large temporal gap between the end of the Avalanche/Ranger/Hawks section and the senior hockey section; it should be bridged somehow.

More later. Steve Smith (talk) 11:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

  • "He also hoped to help kids on the Horse Lake First Nation." How?
  • "By August, he petitioned Commissioner Gary Bettman..." Am I reading this correctly in thinking that we don't have an exact date, but that it was in or before August?

More to come. Steve Smith (talk) 01:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

  • all addressed so far. The temporal gap is explained in the off the ice section. And no, I don't currently have an exact date for his reinstatement request. Dreger's article is from early August and only says that he had sent the letter requesting reinstatement. Resolute 16:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • There should probably be some mention of his actually being selected for the 2002 Olympic team, rather than just invited to its camp.
  • Something about the part where he gets sober is lacking: in 2004 he wasn't sober yet. He credits his wife with turning his life around, but he didn't actually meet her until a year after he became sober. Shouldn't something be said about the quitting itself?
  • I assume that Rock Solid wasn't picked up; is there any more to be said about that?
  • The bit about the Vipers leaves me scratching my head a bit - he shows up at their office trying to sell them practice jerseys, and they suggest that he play for them? Was it a publicity stunt? That he actually hit a single suggests that there was reason to believe he could actually play baseball, but that doesn't show up in the text. Any additional context would be helpful.
  • Is there anything else to be said about FAKE? It's mentioned here only in the context of his baseball career, but seems like a major enough thing that it would justify some information of its own.
  • I dimly remember some mention (I think it might have been at Mirtle's) of a suggestion that the NHL comeback attempt was driven by financial necessity. Was that reported in reliable sources? I almost don't want to see it added to such a feel-good story, but I think if it can be reliably sourced and written in a BLP-sensitive manner it probably belongs.
  • I've changed "regain their sobriety and their lives" to "overcome addictions", for POV and general tone reasons. If it's specifically alcohol (or specifically other drugs) that should probably be mentioned.
  • I'm iffy on the autobiography section - it strikes me that maybe the material should be integrated into the article, such that the focus is less on his autobiography divulging the abuse and more on the abuse. The section also seems a little recentist.
  • "...and had begun working with an organization dedicated to helping male sexual abuse victims." As a volunteer or a client?

That's about all. This is close to FA-level, though I haven't gone through it enough to guarantee that I'll support it in its current state at FAC; any new issues I have then are likely to be minor, though. Steve Smith (talk) 10:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Good points. A few comments: The Vipers thing was a publicity stunt, and as far as I can find his clothing line really only ties into the Vipers. He didn't even mention any of it in his book. I'll have to reword the parts where he found his sobriety, as he says he was still partying when he met his wife. It was after their relationship began that he cleaned up. The financial bit for the comeback was speculated on, however given he didn't look for any other offers after the Flames cut him, it's hard to argue specifically that that is why he did it, since it all comes down to editorializing. I'll see what I can come up with.
As far as the autobiography section goes, I've debated integrating his allegations into the article, though the current format follows the chronological history better, imo. We didn't know about the abuse until he revealed it, some 25 years after the fact. I have been thinking of spinning his book off into its own article and trimming that section. Especially since, when (if) he files a police complaint against James, that section will expand. But some good food for thought, thanks. Resolute 14:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Should be all dealt with. No time like the present to attempt FAC. Thanks for the review! Resolute 22:10, 1 January 2010 (UTC)